My Opinion on Nocturnal Bloodlust`s Recent Remarks and Actions against `Piracy`

[Tetora 625]

Hello,

 

This has been going on for a little while now, but many people are discussing in various places so I decided to make a thread.

 

Masa via Twitter:

 

of course, i understand some fans are in a place that actually can not buy the CD. For those, you can get the songs from iTunes.

 

i kno some ppl are doing it for advertising but if you wanna share the band, then share the stuff(lMV, teaser etc.) on official youtube Ch.

 

we put so much energy and times on just one music. its not only for us, but for you guys as well.

 

i gotta say this again. our music is not free. you killing the art, killing the band, and killing our future.

 

 

Nocturnal Bloodlust has also issued warnings on Youtube, and filed violations on users, stating that they will sue all culprits, etc...

 

I would like to share some quotes from Otaking, Co-Creator of Gainax and Evangelion, amongst other works:

 

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2012-04-21/gainax-co-founder-okada-shares-thoughts-on-illegal-copying

 

Okada replied at length, starting by saying, "Honestly, if that's all it takes to make you happy, then that's fine," but encouraging fans to buy when they have the financial means to. He then moved to the case of individuals who claim they never plan to stop distributing illegally, saying that such a person is only interested in the personal, practical value something can bring to them, comparing this case to someone who claims he never wants to date a girl, but does want to grope women in the train as long as he is not caught.

Moving to the creator's point of view, Okada said that he believes that people who will pay money for a good product will always appear, and that creators would be best served by keep a realistic outlook on the market with this fact in mind, stating that it is better to keep people who can't afford to pay for products amused than to let them remain bored.

Admitting that he realizes that such an outlook "looks down upon" such individuals, he also suggested that paying fans consider themselves "a rank above" those who don't pay. Okada then advocated that rather than becoming upset at people who illegally copy, paying fans should feel sympathy and understanding towards them, and consider them "pets, not parasites," with each one of their purchases supporting the opinions of thousands.

 

 

There is also another quote I remember from the Gurren Lagann era, where one Gainax employee stated:

We don`t pay much mind to people wanting to illegally download our product, we focus more on making a product so good that fans will want to buy it.

 

 

 

IMO unlike even anime, VK and other Japanese music isn`t structured in a way that permits fans to find it, get into it, or become fans without illegally downloading sometimes large amounts of music.

It is a complex situation, but removing all downloads and unauthorized videos online will only harm the industry at this point. There is more I would like to say, but I will just post the most pertinent of my current thoughts at the moment.

 

And yes, although I buy all my music, I still believe downloading is the only way Japanese music stays Internationally somewhat known atm.

 

Thanks for reading.

[Zeus 7997]

Pirates don't care if we're taking food out of someone else's mouth. We don't care if we make it difficult to continue band activities. Historically speaking, pirates weren't nice people. We want music and we want it now and it's hard for a band to compete with free, easy access and still turn a profit.

It's the reality of the music scene in 2014. We suck as human beings, we care about a band enough to follow them but not enough to give them money to continue. Don't worry about us pirates because if the only two choices were to pay up or not hear the music we probably wouldn't buy it because then that band would have to compete with every other musician out there for the few cents in my pocket and honestly they probably aren't first in line. NB should just assume that pirates weren't going to buy their music in the first place so there's no money being "lost" because there was no money to be "gained".

Piracy is a double-edged sword, because at least people care enough about your band to continuously download your releases for free. It gets your name out there but it also does take food off your table. Piracy is great when you're trying to get known; not so much when you're trying to make money after you build up a fanbase. Try to profit off the free PR you get from piracy as best as you can. I have no other magic bullets or solutions or kind words.

[nekkichi 6043]

I haven't seen kyo complaining over his solo project pirated uploads while he got that # 1 oricon w. domestic sales only and scheduled a european tour to get more cash off same material shortly after

 

maybe this masa person could engage some logic and get a better management for his band, if it's piracy making his muzak unsustainable, not lack of paying fans.

 

upd. I just googled around, and this band was formed in 2009? don't vk bands conditionally disband instead on bitching on twitter these days if their gig attendance and everything else is making them so unhappy?

 

it's not like their deeply energy/time invested music is anything to write home about

[Tetora 625]

Interesting posts so far.

 

I would also like to share this older story, I don`t agree with the sentiment completely, but it is still an interesting read for those who haven`t seen it:

 

http://www.japanator.com/visual-kei-fans-are-killing-visual-kei-bands-9146.phtml

 

In the latest volley of gloom and doom in the war against music sharing, Nathan Reavan of HearJapan has issued a scathing statement on his site. In it he details an experiment he worked out with the brand new visual-kei band (the Japanese version of goth/glam rock) Xodiack.

In order to build a following and raise awareness of the band with little initial cost, HearJapan and Xodiack released the band's first single for free on the site. All fans had to do was sign up on the site and they could instantly grab the song. Naturally, some of those fans then re-uploaded it to their own file sharing site of choice. While HearJapan recorded around 500 direct downloads, there were probably thousands more through other sites. All across the web, people were professing their love for the band, saying that they couldn't wait to hear more. Xodiack quickly worked to put together a complete single with three songs and a ton of huge photos.

No one bought it.

OK, a few people bought it, but sales almost immediately stopped as the full single, once again, appeared on file sharing sites. Interestingly, the fans had the same reaction, they all loved it. They loved the band and couldn't talk about them enough. Obviously, none of them had bought the release. None of them had actually supported the band in any real way. XodiacK had spent thousands of dollars recording the music and shooting the photos in an effort to reach out to the world outside of Japan, and the fans just gobbled it all up, giving nothing in return.

Reavan points out that this issue isn't about any money lost by his site, but that lost by the band:

"Did I take a loss in getting all the band information translated accurate, on man hours encoding, tagging, promoting, and numerous phone calls with the band to make sure everything was accurate and just the way the band wanted it? Yes. But my loss is insubstantial to the loss incurred on the band themselves. Would you want to continue doing something if you put all your energy, time and money into something and everyone told you you’re great and awesome but in the end you just get pissed on"

Reavan is targeting vis-kei fans specifically because many of the non-vis acts he works with are doing just fine. It's only the one genre of music that is taking the hit.

You can read the entire post here. It really leaves little room for vis-kei "fans" to wiggle. Also, check out my own opinion on the matter below.

I'd say that 65% of "the people" out there only listen to music because they think they have to. They don't care about it in the least, aside from using it to make themselves look cool, hip, trendy or in the know. For most, music is just transitory wallpaper, something meant to be used and then thrown away once a new trendy style is released. This is certainly nothing new, and not even an inherently bad thing. Much of the music industry is just that, an industry churning out product, keeping people employed and fed.

The real problem is when you combine shallow fans with the ephemeral state of file sharing. Visual-kei is ripe for plunder because a vast majority of the fans only care about what the band members look like and wouldn't know a skilled musician if she sat on their face and bounced. To these people, music really is nothing. It's just this thing attached to a pretty face. A face that will make mom and dad shake their heads in confusion. For many of these kids, the bands are just a tool used to carve out their own special sense of self. The mere possession of the band's album is a sign of rebellion and oh-so-worldly-wise views. Of course rebellion through music is also far from a new idea, but it's still total crap.

So BS fans allow BS music to perpetuate, making it even easier to justify getting it for free, because it's worthless anyway. The bands out there who do put their blood and soul into creating their band have little chance of breaking into and surviving in such an acidic environment. Believe it or not, that glamorous, dreamy front-man with the hawt hair style and smokey voice is probably working 10 hour days as a corporate peon to help get the band new boots for the next live gig. These guys are not exotic vampires living in vast mansions in the French coutryside. They are just some dudes trying to live their dreams, and chances are that their very own fans are bleeding them dry.

What I'm trying to say is this:

File sharing isn't killing the music industry. Shallow fans are.

So what is a real music lover to do? Easy. Buy music, tell your friends to buy music and support the bands with real talent (whatever you think that means.) I'm not saying you have to pay for every last song you download, but I am saying that you need to put your money where your mouth is. If you think a band is great, and you really mean it, then you need to buy their material. If you don't, you're a worthless blight who needs to shut the fuck up and get the fuck out.

[kyoselflove 2680]

I hate people that sue or threaten to sue.  Suing is the stupidest thing ever, just my opinion.  And threatening to sue your fans is messed up, but I never really cared for this band so meh.  All I got to say is that downloading has helped make many bands known and I personally buy the music I like.

 

I know Masa has a point but I still find it annoying, and it feels like Napster all over again lol.  Seriously, how he said that it is 'killing the art and band's future.'  I highly doubt that.

[Tetora 625]

Here is a similar issue addressed by Shounen Jump regarding the manga industry.

 

This letter actually vastly changed the online manga distribution system, including the prompt removal of the biggest scanlation providers / network. Of course, this did not majorly affect Shounen Jump, but has affected the availability of smaller magazines and series to this day,

 

http://www.animevice.com/news/shonen-jump-asks-fans-to-stop-scanning-its-manga/4254/

 

In the newest issue of Weekly Shonen Jump, the Weekly Shonen Jump editorial department has finally addressed the issue of scanlations by writing a heartfelt letter begging fans to stop scanning their work. Here is a translation thanks to cmertb

To all our readers -

There are now many people unjustly posting copies of manga on the internet. These unjust copies are inconsistent with mangakas' feelings. They are also distorting the authors' intentions of "I want the work to be read this way". The actions of posting these unjust copies on the net, into which the mangakas have poured their hearts, are not only hurting mangakas in real life but are also against the law, even if done in a light-hearted manner. Every time we discover such "unjust copies", we talk to the mangaka and consider every possible countermeasure. But the number of inconsiderate people is great, and at present we cannot deal with all of them. We have a request for all our readers. The unjust internet copies are deeply hurting the manga culture, mangakas' rights, and even mangakas' souls. Please understand once again that all of that is against the law. Also, the mangakas and Shueisha will severely deal with any unjust copies found on the internet. We ask that our readers please continue to support us.

~Weekly Shonen Jump editorial department

To much surprise, this letter actually had an impact on the scanlation scene in the west. The website, Raw Paradise has already removed their website, forwarding any visitor to Shueisha’s main page. Though this was probably not done because they felt bad for what they did, but because they were frightened by Shonen Jump’s message, since raw paradise’s scans are heavily watermarked.

I also believe this message was directed toward the Japanese fans rather than our scanlation scene, since it is with these fans that they make the most money. This is a big development in the scanalation world, but not the cure some fans have been waiting for. No matter what the industry does, scanlations will always exist. Regardless, Shonen Jump did the right thing by just asking fans to help them out rather than jumping down our throats with threats and lawyers.

[CAT5 9075]

I agree with what nekkichi was hinting at...They simply need to update their strategy and adapt to the times. Hell, the entire music industry does. Piracy isn't going anywhere - whenever you find a way to stop it, pirates will find another way around it - that's how it's always been and it's useless to fight against the vicious cycle. So I think artists/bands need to find ways to make piracy work to their advantage. It's a very optimistic approach, but it's also a realistic one because it doesn't allow something as inevitable and immovable as piracy to hinder success.

 

There are Japanese indie bands touring Canada right now. Why? Because of piracy. In fact, had I not bought uchuu combini's mini album and shared it with my friends (aka pirated their album), they would not be touring Canada right now. Why? Because one of my online friends just happens to be a rich dude who's passionate enough about Japanese indie to pay for/host entire tours out of his own pocket.

 

Granted, most instances of piracy are not as serendipitous as this one. But I also think it's completely useless to lament the cons of piracy, as you'll simply limit yourself in the long-run. It's much more effective to focus on solutions rather than problems.

[hiroki 5521]

Some people seem to believe that piracy is (only) a service problem - Masa's first point gives me this impression too. The implication is that if you make music as accessible as possible, piracy is going to magically disappear. Sadly this is true only in the limiting case where the music in question is rare to the extent that it hasn't surfaced on the internet. If anything, vk is among the least affected by piracy (in relative terms) as opposed to games, movies, pop music, whatever., because the obscure live-limited releases and distro's are impossible to pirate if they don't even exist on the network to begin with.  Yet it hurts them more because in absolute terms as they have a far smaller slice of the consumers' pie.

 

For stuff that people can buy from shops or online, releases are only "immune" to piracy for the first 24-48 hours or so. The artists know this as well; that's why fans are always being bugged to "pre-order" upcoming releases. The reality is that more and more people today who actually BUY music do so not because they want to listen to the music, but as a symbolic act of pledging their support. It's like making a "donation" to affirm that you like what the artists are doing. Why else would I want to spend money on a CD and wait for it to arrive, when I can simply click on a link to get it for free instantly? Most of my friends who buy CDs (not many do anymore, admittedly) don't even open their CDs when they arrive at their house, cuz they've pirated the digital files long ago. The industry realizes this as well, so they have stuff like in-store events and promotional lucky-draws to encourage purchase.

 

Anyway, I should say that I don't want to endorse piracy. I do, however, wish that bands like NB would stop whining and direct their effort to formulating a marketing model to sell their stuff in our current age where music doesn't sell the same way it had used to (something for people to buy, take home, and listen). If there's only one thing AKB48 or any of their countless analogs can be praised for, it's being incredibly successful at this.

[JukaForever 758]

Interesting posts so far.

 

I would also like to share this older story, I don`t agree with the sentiment completely, but it is still an interesting read for those who haven`t seen it:

 

http://www.japanator.com/visual-kei-fans-are-killing-visual-kei-bands-9146.phtml

 

 

here is the original letter by Nathan Reaven

 

A Message To Visual Kei Fans

This is a personal letter to the tens of thousands of visual kei fans in the world from me, Nathan Reaven, the president of HearJapan. This is the first time I have addressed fans in a personal matter, but I am doing so now because I feel this issue that I will describe later is very important and can not be ignored. I originally had the dream to start HearJapan 5 years ago because as a Japanese music fan myself, it was incredibly frustrating for me to get Japanese music (especially in those days). I wanted to correct the situation and make it easy to get a hold of Japanese music no matter where in the world you were so I studied my ass off and started a 5 year journey to make HearJapan. I thought I was up to a brilliant idea because the fanbase of Japanese music was growing rapidly and bands were finally starting to go abroad and connect with their fans. This trend was particularly strong with visual kei, so I decided to create a store that focused on visual kei. Imagine my surprise when every other genre on the stores initial offering was outselling visual kei by margins of 5 to 1. I asked myself why were there tens thousand fans for a particular band outside of Japan and the band would only sell a few albums. Meanwhile, other artists on our site would sell dozens of copies even though I couldn’t find any substantial fan base for those particular bands on the internet.

Eventually, I discovered that the only way to sell visual kei music at all was through a hard push before the release came out and on the release date itself. After the release date the music simply won’t sell at all. The reason for this is simple and without a doubt uploads that do not have the permission of the bands, labels or anyone who invested time and money into the music itself. The reason why it’s impossible to sell visual kei after it’s initial release date is because there are many users on the internet who take pride and joy in offering other visual kei fans the music to download for free and more importantly without the permission of the rights holders (artists, artist managers, label owners, copyright societies, photographers, etc).

It is not just downloads from HearJapan that are effected. I have also seen the CD export data for some visual kei bands and unfortunately it follows the same dismal pattern. This letter is not about losses which HearJapan has incurred because other genres of music more than make up for it. In this letter, I want to explain the consequences this has on not only the artists themselves but the end result you the fan will be left with.

I have to talked to many visual kei bands and labels (many of which are not on HearJapan) and they all tell me the same thing. They were so hopeful because of all the foreign fans visiting their website or MySpace page but when they made an attempt to provide their music to these fans they suffered major losses. To provide a clear example for this letter I will use the example of XodiacK, whom HearJapan just released their 1st single on January 1st of this year.

First, I will tell you some background information. When the band was forming they came to me because they wanted to try a new approach. Instead of focusing only on playing in live houses in Japan and slowly building up a loyal following of fans, they wanted to focus primarily outside of Japan while still playing in Japan. They were really interested in getting their music out to fans outside of Japan and touring internationally. I thought this was great as it’s the opposite of 99% of bands that I meet. Outside of Japan is normally intimidating and simply something they don’t understand. To make matters worse, from their various connections in the Japanese music industry, they have never heard of a case of an attempt that didn’t end up bankrupting someone.

As a way to build up fans, I suggested they offer their first song free of charge so that there would be no commitment from visual kei fans around the world and it would be a good litmus test. So before the band made any official debut, we released their first single on HearJapan for free to anyone who was willing to download. The single was downloaded from HearJapan over 500 times and much more than that from all the fans who uploaded it to a zillion other sites. With any band, of course there were some people who didn’t like it, but overall the feedback was overwhelmingly positive. During the first two weeks almost every visual kei blog or message board were talking about the single and many users said they couldn’t wait for the next one. Before even making a debut or anyone really knowing anything about the band, they gathered over 500 friends on myspace and over 200 people who actively listened to the band on Last.FM.

Meanwhile the band was preparing for their official debut. In my personal experience of reading posts about the effects of downloading this is usually the part that I don’t hear. The band members themselves spent over $10,000 US dollars preparing for their debut. What could possibly end up costing that much? Well being a visual kei band is the most expensive kind of band to be. Custom costumes alone cost a few thousand. They had to rent rehearsal space to practice many times a week costing 100 dollars each time. They had to pay money up front to play at various live houses in Japan. They had to lease a studio and hire a recording engineer to professionally record the three songs so you the listener would be happy with the quality. They had to get a photoshoot done and hire a professional photographer. For the photoshoot they need a makeup artist and need to buy all the makeup themselves. When you need to be in makeup more than a few times a week it begins to cost a lot of money! Any band in Japan has to pay a lot of money to be active, but visual kei bands have to pay the most, especially when their fans expect a new look with every other release.

The reason why I am using XodiacK as an example is because their debut release was only sold through HearJapan. There is no legroom to say “I purchased the CD” or the numerous excuses that are often made but in many cases hold up to not be true. Finally there is irrefutable evidence that uploads of the album kill sales. It is also irrefutable to say that the no one knew about the release. All of the band’s MySpace friends were contacted, all the bands listeners on Last.FM were contacted, posts were made about the new release and the band itself on the majority of the most popular visual kei related blogs, websites and message boards. The price was also incredibly cheap and came with over 100 megabytes of bonus material to please the fans. What happened?

The first few hours of release, the numbers of releases sold could be counted on both hands. Then there were two more sales and it completely stopped. From all the feedback on dozens of message boards and blogs, there were at least a hundred people saying how great it was and how awesome it was. I checked the listening now section of XodiacK’s page on Last.FM (which lists 10 users who had most recently listened to a particular band). All 10 users had listened to XodiacK in the past hour and every time I checked there were different listeners. This means that at any given hour there were more people who were listening to the release on just one site than had even bought it in total. No matter what site I went to, there were more people talking about how great it was and that they had even purchased the release (even though that number exceeded total purchases). Therefore, it can not be said that there wasn’t interest, the band sucked or the word didn’t get out.

The reason the sales didn’t do well was for one simple reason. One or more of the users uploaded the release to hosting sites and everyone else downloaded from there. It only took a few hours to kill any chance the band had on selling any decent amount of music to partially make up for all the money they spent trying to please the fans. In total I found the release uploaded to 9 sites, and it was probably uploaded to many more as well. From there everyone else downloaded it thinking they had done no wrong. As sales had completely stopped, as an experiment we decided to take down all the download links. What happened? Sales started again briefly only to be stopped once the files were re-uploaded. Who gets screwed? I’m alright. Did I take a loss in getting all the band information translated accurate, on man hours encoding, tagging, promoting, and numerous phone calls with the band to make sure everything was accurate and just the way the band wanted it? Yes. But my loss is insubstantial to the loss incurred on the band themselves. Would you want to continue doing something if you put all your energy, time and money into something and everyone told you you’re great and awesome but in the end you just get pissed on? I certainly wouldn’t.

This is not the case of just XodiacK, but every single Visual Kei band. My main job is to go around to many different artists and labels and try to get them on the site. So I talk to a huge number of artists and labels on a weekly basis. I also talk regularly with promoters of visual kei concerts and artists overseas and labels of visual kei music overseas. I have a pretty big picture of what is happening over the whole professional landscape and everyone tells me the exact same thing. It didn’t matter if the person was the band manager, the artist, the promoter, etc. This is the default response: “For the band that I worked with, we tried to bring them overseas, but no one would pay for the music….. we lost a lot of money.” I’ve heard many times from band leaders, “Our listener base just kept on expanding and expanding. Our sales never did. When I’d check my MySpace page I was flooded with messages saying how great our new release was and I always wonder why didn’t you buy it then?” Why do you think when bands go abroad you have to buy the CD or pay an absurd amount to get a signature of the band or a picture with them? From a band manager’s perspective, “the only way we could sell copies of our CD was to coerce the fans into buying it. I couldn’t believe it. That is unheard of in Japan and an additional stress for a band that is already stressed out from preparing for this for a long time.” Also, why do 90% of bands only play at anime conventions? Because if they sold a ticket price at 10 dollars, and even sold out the venue, they wouldn’t make up the cost of airfare and touring expenses. If they raised the price, than fans would say they were trying to rip them off and wouldn’t come. Anime conventions will typically pay a portion of the airfare and hotel rooms for the band to come over and play. For some reason paying $40 to a convention plus another $30 for a close seat is ok, but paying directly to the band is extortion. Why do most bands who come over once don’t come back for many more years? It’s simple, if you lose a lot of money going abroad, and you want to go abroad again you have to raise the money from Japanese fans to go over again. As mentioned before, even running the most bare bones visual kei band will cost a lot of money. Unless the band does extraordinarily good in Japan, chances are they won’t come back for a long time and their album sales from abroad aren’t helping in that effort either.

In the long run, everyone loses. Of course there are bands that do come over often, but that just means that someone has deep pockets or they have found a way to reach non-visual kei fans. I know for most visual kei music it’s incredibly difficult to find a place to buy it and equally expensive. But when a band makes an effort to connect with you the fans through HearJapan, a domestic release, an international tour, etc, you need to show your support with your wallet, otherwise your voice will never be heard.

Occasionally this topic does come up on message boards. I hear a plethora of excuses as to why this isn’t a problem. One often cited example is that it’s too expensive. Was 428 yen too expensive? HearJapan has cut the cost of buying Japanese music in half while keeping the artists and labels happy. While some people might not want to pay for mp3s, the price is affordable and we try to add extra bonuses. There are also domestic releases that are the same price as any other CD that also don’t sell. Another reason I often hear is that it takes too long to get there. I know this is a problem with import sites and most domestic releases in the past, but HearJapan sells everything at midnight of the release date in Japan and the download only takes a few minutes. I don’t see a reason why that would dissuade people from buying XodiacK’s new release. Another frequently used excuse is, “Dir En Grey thinks it’s ok and now they are incredibly successful.” The reason they are successful is because they didn’t rely on foreign visual kei fans to support them. They instead tried to reach the average music consumer who has no clue what visual kei is and doesn’t know that it’s very easy to download for free.

However, the biggest excuse I hear for why this isn’t a problem is, “I’m introducing the band to more and more fans. I’m helping the band by creating more friends.” This is merely a half truth. All the downloads I see being passed around are from jrock fans to jrock fans. I’m sure why people try to convert the unconverted, but sending from jrock fans to jrock fans is NOT helping the bands in anyway. No new fans are being made. The only thing that is happening is that you are killing any chance the band has of seeing any money from the album they worked so hard to make because every existing fan of the band can get it for free and does. There is absolutely no reason to spread the release of a band that already has over 10,000 fans outside of Japan. I am well aware of the fact that the fanbase has increased due to these downloads. But I am also aware of the fact that album sales aren’t increasing at all. If you want to introduce someone to a band they have never heard of before, simply send them a song or link them to a YouTube clip. Just don’t immediately kill any chance an artist has right off the bat.

PS – This post is not aimed at the users who legally purchased this release and did not upload it to public places. Your support is greatly appreciated

[JukaForever 758]

From what I read about HearJapan, it seems like a good service born out of passion than anything else. Unfortunately it is dead now from the looks of it, wish something similar is around though. It's a sad story for Xodiacks part. Selling just a handful 0.0 poor guys.

 

After reading Nathan Reaven's letter, the VK market seems fucked up.

 

IDK about you guys but if the music is available through iTunes, that is good enough of a solution for accessibility as long as iTunes doesn't over charge. But if it is affordable enough (say a dollar a song plus not buying instrumentals and intros/outros) you can save quite a bit and leave very little reason to not buy the songs. Unless you are like me and prefer having the source material over just a DL. I am still old school and love the look of stacks of recordings. I also like the extra bits such as DVDs, posters. 

 

I agree with what nekkichi was hinting at...They simply need to update their strategy and adapt to the times. Hell, the entire music industry does. Piracy isn't going anywhere - whenever you find a way to stop it, pirates will find another way around it - that's how it's always been and it's useless to fight against the vicious cycle. So I think artists/bands need to find ways to make piracy work to their advantage. It's a very optimistic approach, but it's also a realistic one because it doesn't allow something as inevitable and immovable as piracy to hinder success.

 

There are Japanese indie bands touring Canada right now. Why? Because of piracy. In fact, had I not bought uchuu combini's mini album and shared it with my friends (aka pirated their album), they would not be touring Canada right now. Why? Because one of my online friends just happens to be a rich dude who's passionate enough about Japanese indie to pay for/host entire tours out of his own pocket.

 

Granted, most instances of piracy are not as serendipitous as this one. But I also think it's completely useless to lament the cons of piracy, as you'll simply limit yourself in the long-run. It's much more effective to focus on solutions rather than problems.

 

That is a big point though. Those that don't have that kind of connections won't get the same opportunities to play here. Along with the rich friend, that example is too unfair for argument sake.

[CAT5 9075]

That is a big point though. Those that don't have that kind of connections won't get the same opportunities to play here. Along with the rich friend, that example is too unfair for argument sake.

 

The point is that good things can definitely come from piracy, although obviously not always to that degree. You never know who might hear your music or what opportunities may come your way from the additional exposure.

[Shmilly 519]

Obviously this is an issue much larger than NOCTURNAL BLOODLUST, but it does get the ball rolling again when an actual musician or group acts on it. In NB's case, I'm actually a bit confused about their concerns, because although they're starting to reach that level of popularity in the indie scene where people clamour for their releases it's not like they're not shifting copies. I had to go into two VK CD stores yesterday (the day of release) to buy their new single because in the first one it was already sold out. I think I may have grabbed the last copy from the second too because there were no more on the shelves, although I guess there could have been some in storage since they were still clearing up after an instore event. That said, I also bought a ticket for their one man next weekend which has yet to sell out (and probably won't). Now I don't know whether NB make more money from their CDs than their lives (there's a strong used market in Japan with stores like Closet Child and Puresound, and of course the auction sites). But in today's reality the way most foreign bands (especially indies) gain recognition overseas is by someone on the internet saying, 'hey this band is awesome, check them out' and people sharing downloads. It's great to see more bands these days like NB use an official YouTube account to advertise their music and PVs, but people still need to know about them to watch them. It's a tricky issue, but as people have already stated suing your fans seems like it can only do more harm than good at this point. I'm looking forward to see if NB have any announcements to make at Shinjuku BLAZE.

[Owl 347]

I thought nokubura are doing well.

I think fans should support their favourite bands in a possible way. Buy something. If you can't buy cd, you can show your appreciation by buying at least onesong digital single. Digital versions are pretty covenient for foreign fans.

Sharing help discover. If I really like single I downloaded, I'll buy it, or buy next one. I want to hope other folks do the same.

But sure there are lots of people who dont buy music at all. I guess there's no way to make them pay. If noone will share certain album they'll just ignore it.

I'm not against sharing, I'm against people who dont support even favourite bands.

[lichtlune 915]

I say if you have the money to spare then you should be buying some albums or singles or whatever from your favorite artists or the artists you feel need it most. Obviously buying everything would get expensive. 

 

But not all of us have the money to spare. I live with my parents still, college student, i am pretty poor and I've been wearing the same clothes for a couple of years now. I need the money. I'll support in whatever way i can without paying and I'll buy an album every now and then if i have money to spare but i don't feel like i or others should be demonized for not buying music. Even if you buy no music at all.

 

Another thing to mention is most visual kei fans are college students or kids living with their parents right? You just can't expect the people within those demographics to pay up. Aren't those the least likely to have money to spare? That's probably why vk is doing so poorly and why xodiack failed in their efforts.

 

Times are changing however and the more accessible the music is made for free the more likely people are to download it instead. I think digital releases and crowd funding websites are the best way to the future. 

[hiroki 5521]

 

I'll support in whatever way i can without paying and I'll buy an album every now and then if i have money to spare but i don't feel like i or others should be demonized for not buying music. Even if you buy no music at all.

 

Let me first say that I don't believe we are all entitled to music in principle. If we have to pay to consume a product (chips, cars, etc.), why should music be any different? Nevertheless I don't think anyone should be demonized for not buying music, only by virtue of the fact that no sane person will prefer to pay for something they can get for free. And this "free access" to music is an inevitable consequence of the digitization of music over the last 2 decades and how the Internet works. Nothing can be done about this, as unfortunate as it may be. Record labels have tried all kinds of weird tactics to ameliorate this (wiki "cccd" for starters) but in the end it always either backfires spectacularly or turns out to be a waste of everyone's time.

 

That's why I feel that there's a sense in which this whole "fight against piracy" thing is misguided, because it's akin to fighting the entire landscape of how music is digitized, stored, and circulated. Let us accept that pirates are not going to be "persuaded" to stop pirating. If they're threatened by law, they will just find a more covert/discreet way of going about their business. Get rid of megaupload and now we have Mega.nz. So, rather than tweeting their disappointment and dealing with the x% of fans who will pirate music regardless of how cheap/available the music is (again, I don't think piracy is a service issue), how about actually coming up with ways to grow the pie so that the x% is rendered numerically insignificant? The reason pop music etc. survive is not because they suffer less piracy (seriously I don't even want to know how many people have pirated Adele), but because their fanbase is large enough for them to financially survive in spite of the piracy problem.

[Brandon 18]

Obviously u can say that "the downloading helped me to find the band and spend money on them".
But the facts is, that since the digital music and sharing sites are exist. The CD sellings are dropped around to 1/20 and very hard to live as musician.
This is the truth. 

[Bear 1817]

Then don't try live off your music. It's fully possible to make music, release music, tour a lot around the world and keep regular jobs. Thousands and thousands of bands from all over the world does that every single year. You cannot start a band in the 2000's and expect to live off your music.

[sai 868]

NB basically killed themselves when going visual kei lmfao

 

I agree with whoever said that today's music industry is awfully outdated, especially in Japan. There are not a lot of artists in VK that distribute their stuff digitally, and when they do it's only in the Japanese iTunes store. Websites like HearJapan offered cheaper digital releases compared to other digital distributors, so I think the website was for a good cause (especially since they also offered bonuses and higher bitrates). It's a shame that not many people bothered to pay less than 500 yen for a full album they actually really enjoyed; most full lengths on iTunes cost 2000yen, physical copies usually 3000yen. With HearJapan gone, in order for fans to buy digital copies now, they'd have to make a Japanese iTunes account and buy Japanese iTunes cards online; purchasing the physical copy from CDJapan therefore is much easier, even though it costs more (of course there's also amazon, but we don't talk about amazon's digital quality lmao). Besides, I know people similar to me who prefer to have the music in the bitrate they desire; iTunes offers 256kbps rips that sometimes sound like shit, especially on high quality headphones. Websites like bandcamp offer a solution to this, and perhaps putting their music on bandcamp costs less than putting it on iTunes, but I wouldn't dare state this as fact.

 

These artists keep complaining about overseas fans that download their stuff while they're not even their target audience. If my target audience was Japan and I had people outside of Japan buying my stuff here and there, I'd see it as something nice on the side, unless these people would encourage my Japanese audience to buy less. If that's what's going on, then I understand why bands like NB are upset. If not, I don't see how they're making huge losses from it if they're not putting any sort of money into promotion outside of Japan.

 

Not everyone can buy everything, but most musicians understand that; most visual kei fans are teenagers who are still in high school and have no income except for their montly allowance they get from their parents, and you can't blame them for not spending that allowance on CDs every single time. If you however DO have the money to support your favourite artist, I feel like you should. I know not many VK fans feel up to that, but how can you make people purchase more?

 

I feel like Korean pop companies found the answer to that question and it's called packaging. EXO for example sold more than 1 million copies of their first album, and even though Kpop has a way bigger target audience because pop music is just more mainstream than VK is, I wouldn't deny that the packaging and price have something to do with it. I know that in Japan prices for CDs are just regularly high, but Korean pop CDs usually cost about 15 euros and are packaged in boxes, books, metal cases etc. with the CD, a thick photobook, a card signed by one of the band members and usually a big poster for free as well. I love buying Kpop CDs because of this; of course I buy a CD when I think it's good, but that fantastic packaging just gives it a little bit extra. I can understand some indie VK bands can not afford this kind of packaging, but I know plenty of bands can. Make it desireable to purchase the CD, give it extra things that a downloaded copy could not give you. If VK is so oriented on looks, why not add in a seperate photobook, for example? You'd have to pay extra for a photographer and the printing, but if it made you sell more copies in the end and raise the profit, why not?

 

Though selling more copies in general only enriches the record company, not so much the artist, as we all know. In Europe, 25$ for a newly released CD is a normal price and the least you can do (legally) is listen to 30 second samples in the store itself (if it even offers that option). That alone is not going to make me buy an album.

 

Anyway this became way too long and doesn't make any sense probably but I hope you at least understood what I was trying to say lol.

[hyura 465]

 

someone who claims he never wants to date a girl, but does want to grope women in the train as long as he is not caught.

 

Paying fans should feel sympathy and understanding towards them, and consider them "pets, not parasites,"

 

Bit offtopic but.

Am I the only one who thinks this analogy is really fucked up?

I mean. I don't mind pirates at all so I'd be on the "pets, not parasites" team but... how is pirating music similar to sexual harassment? And does it mean I should think of sex offenders as pets, too, because I don't mind piracy?

Sure, both are illegal and both are a violation of another persons rights but have you ever heard of some anime creator who had to go to therapy to fix his deep emotional trauma caused by neckbeards downloading his work?

How is sexual harassment related to wanting or not wanting a girlfriend anyway?

[Champ213 1858]

How many of those that have pirated NB's latest release would have actually bought it if they hadn't had the chance to download it? Maybe 10%? How many of those only know of the band because they pirated the music at some point? 90%? Right.

 

 

Fact is: people pirate music because it's so easy. If they couldn't, most of them just wouldn't listen to the music. I already spend about 150 Euro a month on japanese CDs, I pirate the rest. If I couldn't pirate, well, tough luck, but I still wouldn't spend more on music than I already do. I would just listen to less.

[Tokage 5930]

I feel like music should first and foremost be about the art. Exploring your own creativity and giving a voice to it and all that. Being able to make a profit off your music should just be some form of happy coincidence, it shouldn't be the main driving point... Of course, the majority of musicians probably does not share these same ideals. It's sad. I know it's probably more difficult for some to combine a daytime job with a musical career than for others, but it's not impossible.

 

Also lel if you wanted to make a profit then maybe you should do something to make yourself stand out instead of being generic deathcore/metalcore band #845038450

[Guest Magatsu]

Ok. I never wanted to plop in.

 

But this is what I think.

 

If bands, labels etc are such butthurted then the NEED to do something against it.  

They should not hunt the downloaders they need to hunt the uploaders.

Fight those illegal links to take them down... yet still to late if one is online but yet somehow I got the feeling that for some people it will be no fun anymore to upload if their accounts are flagged over and over.

releasing free stuff. making things more interesting for (oversea) fans etc. etc.

 

Labels etc only complain but they just don't do a shit. 

It's still way to easy for us to download. 

And they still don't do a fuck against it.

 

So... they should stop complaining or doing finally something....

But they will never act big anyway...

Because in their heads they know it's good promotion...

 

Also bands live from their Japanese fans only. and those fans buy already all goodies and stuff. Soo... why the fuck do they complain? 

 

Well that's it.

Laterz folks. 

[CAT5 9075]

They should change their name to Nocturnal Butthurt tbh

[Tokage 5930]

Nocturnal Cashlust

[Slsr 207]

I don't understand whine about his comments, surely they are kinda silly but I feel he has every right to be mad anyway. thousands of people listening his work without ever paying one penny of it. It is pretty annoying, especially if you know how many of these people are, they think they are entitled to all this shit without doing anything (yes, I am talking about you)

 

Now personally I feel there is sometimes pretty reasonable reasons why somenone doesn't buy CDs and shit, I can get it. Piracy also isn't really that bad thing. it can be way for many people to get known of new bands etc. Problem I have with all this isn't really piracy, it is just that most people just exploit it without care in the world. They never buy anything even if they could afford it just because they just don't buy music even if they might enjoy it immensely. Therefore current state of industry is rather sad looking from musician point of view, often there is people who like artist/band work but many never won't buy any of it as they just don't buy music.

 

So in the end I can actually phrase problem here in two words, they are: people suck.