"Hypocricy" in the music taste of some j-rock listeners.

[togz 2004]

I listened to VK exclusively for like 3 years. There is some sort of blind (sometimes not blind) bias towards anything and everything VK. 

 

There's Band A and Band B.

 

Band A is a visual kei band
Band B is not. 

 

Looks aside, both bands play a fairly similar sounding genre. 

 

VK stan fan listens to both. Band A is best." Band B is okay but not really my style."

I was guilty of that at one point. It's because I was more in to being in to one scene. It wasn't okay or cool of me to like something not VK. But this goes both ways. 

 

There are certainly people who listen to metalcore, djenty chuggy chug chug stuff... but you show them a VK band that sounds similar and they won't dig it. 

 

I feel like this isn't something that pertains to JUST "j-rock listeners."

 

But like.... cheers too bro.

[Tokage 5930]

One thing connected to this whole language bias-based hypocrisy business I always thought to be funny is when people are like, SUPER insistent that they listen to Japanese music because they think 'the lyrics are deep'. I'll be up front by saying that IMO listening to music solely because of the lyrics is already kind of ??? in general, but this situation remains funny to me regardless.

I guess it's mostly amusing because, quite often, the people exclaiming that kind of stuff don't even speak a single lick of Japanese outside of entry-level anime vocabulary and pretty much almost entirely base their opinions on translations that have most likely been done by some college student who's two or three months into their Japanese Culture BA sitting with a thesaurus on their lap in order to find the longest and fanciest words possible in order to translate their aidoru's "wooooooow i dont wanna go to bed at 9 pm mom im 12 now"-tier lyrics because only they truly understand their poetry

[herpes 1597]

4 hours ago, fitear1590 said:

Even if a German-language band existed that sounded, musically, exactly like THE NOVEMBERS or something, I highly doubt I'd ever enjoy listening to them as much as Japanese NOVEMBERS, just from a phonetic standpoint. And this is coming from someone who studies/teaches/otherwise loves German

 

While this is true for German - that language is phonetically repulsive - I think it's a little unfair to use that as the example. French, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Icelandic are all Languages spoken within the eu and while none of them have a similar structure to a Japanese syllable (I'm wording this terribly but I hope it comes across), they all are soft like Japanese and flow well. The Icelandic Novembers are probably just as easy to listen to. 

[nekkichi 6043]

2 hours ago, herpes said:

 

While this is true for German - that language is phonetically repulsive 

 

how fucking dare u

 

 

[Anne Claire 392]

Never listened to Deviloof,so i don't care

Cheers,btw 

[alone_tsubasa 59]

Cheers

[Komorebi 2193]

While OP and ChemicalPictures have exellent points worth discussing, I'll have to side with Panda, Cat and a few others on this.

 

Music taste is something very subjective and personal (unless you exclusively listen to hits on the radio, then you literally have no taste for any genre) and why people like this music or that music and stan this or that band is going to probably depend on a whole shitload of stuff.

 

Personally, as a linguist and simultaneous interpreter, I like the sound of some languages more than others and, as Panda, voice and phonetics play a very important role when choosing music I like. It is undeniable that Japanese phonetics are softer than some other's and I will most likely prefer to listen to a Japanese, French or Russian band over a germanic-language band (which doesn't keep me from listening to them either). It's the same reason why I don't dig screamo bands, no matter the country they come from.

 

That doesn't mean there won't be weeabos that will listen to anything Japanese ONLY because it's from Japan just like there's some people that don't listen to Adele songs that weren't on the radio more than 20 times a week. If anything, I think people listen more to VK than western rock/metal because the "pretty boys" (coughphotoshoppedcough) ratio there is bigger, not because of "deep lyrics" and "omgz I luv Japanz!!1!"

 

I don't think it's a matter of hypocrisy (if that were the case, why not call hypocrytes those metal fans that refuse to listen to NokuBura or Deviloof BECAUSE they wear make up?), it's much boarder than that. 

 

Though you could always do a poll about reasons for vk preference here and one on that gaijingya-filled fb group and compare answers. It will both answer your questions and disgust you.

 

Cheers.

 

PS: I really like celtic music. Anyone else? 

Edited February 4, 2017 by Komorebi
Forgot to say cheers

[chemicalpictures 1888]

Ok, I may have generalized a bit too much on my first post, as I really do think MH has some of the best opinionated people on japanese music around the webs, and that statement is more for the generic weeaboo we found lurking around elsewhere. I think people's points on phonetics are really interesting and explain a part of the audience preferences (The more musically mature, I believe). Most of people here that defended the idea of japanese phonetics sounding better to them are the ones I actually really look forward to reading opinions around here, even if most of the time I don't listen to the same stuff they do.

 

I'm brazilian, so portuguese is my native language. I really do believe you can't do better than latin-based languages when talking about smooth, slow-tempo or ballad songs. However, when talking about rock, we sound like shit. Some rock tune sang in english will sound 3000x better, and that's it. Maybe it's just my point of view, but I think you guys are onto something.

 

I'm sticking to music only, cuz I don't really care about looks and I don't understand how that affects on something like music taste. I think we all agree that VK bands ain't the most innovative kids on the playground,  but there's something structurally interesting on those songs, even if sometimes the parts of the composition are not really original. A typical VK song would be "intro, verse, bridge/pre-chorus, chorus, verse/bridge, chorus, solo, bridge/pre-chorus chorus, outro" something like that, right? any of you guys agree that this is something that also attracts people? Friends that don't listen to japanese music calls this "anime-sounding music". This was the first thing that draw my attention when I was introduced to japanese music, and it's something that stuck with me. Maybe this is also a part of the puzzle.

 

cheeeeeeeers

[Kaleidoscope 195]

I agree with everything that has been said about the language of the music, but I also think that the image of the band plays a huge role. If band A and band B both play similar music in style in quality, but band B has an amateur-ish look/a terrible band logo/lame cover artworks, whereas band A has a great look/great artworks/seems professional (which is all subjective of course), a lot of people would say band A is better. I don't know why some people have a problem admitting it, but for me the whole image of a band plays a large role and influences the way in which I enjoy or don't enjoy their music - this applies to VK as well as pretty much any other genre or style imaginable. Aesthetics are just something a lot of people look for when it comes to any form of art. Even scenes  like the metal scene who often claim they don't are about appearances suddenly care a lot if a metal band doesn't fit the visuals a band in this genre is supposed to have.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Kaleidoscope

[Delkmiroph 1649]

cheers and goodbye.

[Nyasagi 259]

I think Kaleidoscope has a point here, but I also think that visual kei bands do have a specific sound that is somehow different (but I don't know how to explain it, I just hear it... maybe other bands just sound too perfect and too clear and it's awkward for me, idk). I said that years ago to people here and they kept telling me I'll drop visual kei and listen to something else, but it never happened. I really struggle to find any newer rock/metal bands I'd like, everything that I like is older music, from the times when I was a teenager and didn't listen to visual kei, yet (when this emo/screamo trend happened everything went shit). Calling someone else a hypocrite just because you don't see something they see in the bands is lame, that's all I have to say.

[zaa_zaa 208]

Nyasagi - that's the reason why I wrote "hypocricy" with quotation marks and asked a question without claiming that my opinion is correct, and without insulting anyone.

 

We all can enjoy whatever we want, but the point I was making is that certain listeners of any genre sometimes tend to glorify what they listen to, when, objectively speaking, even from a technical side their favourites are mediocre. It's like me arguing that what I listen to is "good" music, whereas what you listen to is "bad" music.

 

And yes, I did hear some interesting perspectives here that I haven't thought about, such as a look at music from a perspective of pronounciation.

 

Regarding japanese bands having a specific sound - yes, I agree with you, but I assume one can make such a claim about almost any country's music, be it Russian, Portugese or whatever, since one has to look at traditional music and scales that were dominant in that country.

Edited February 4, 2017 by zaa_zaa
spelling

[Pretsy 1343]

For me personally aside from otherwise "relaxing" flow and other phonetic mumblejumble it was also about unorthodox vocal-arrangement combinations in otherwise rather casual genres (who would think that fitting baritone/nasal-ish vox with symphonic/power metal would work well as a case in point?) AND allow me to recap myself:

 

 

(Carm's note: you gotta thank folks like Beatles and earlier black Jazz musician figures for playing around with this progression - as we speak, gospel music often plays around with same chording ideas, funny huh?)

 

Skip the intro and check the ending - there's a huge pool of subtopics related to this subject Friedman was discussing what I would call "Japanese progression". Not saying this would be literally EVERYWHERE (e.g. my standom for Pura merely started out from Britpop fanboying and affinity for special phonetic stuff) but I could honestly say nowadays that this pretty much separates my "palatable japanese taste" from "palatable western (my culture) taste".

 

 

Speaking of some western figures usually slamming us into "deluded, closed-minded listeners" because of such affinity - lemme counter this with my own take: Japanese way of conveying otherwise "western" genres helped me to look and keep my *EAR* on nuances I usually either missed or never paid attention to in otherwise very "familiar, palatable" english/mother tongue-based music.  But then again, that is if you allow yourself to evolve with your tastes per se (whether you "progress" in your taste or not is not dependent on whether you represent the "weeb" culture or otherwise "palatable" culture). I could go on and on about this variety of examples that reformed my musical aficionado self into more "curious" one but that would be just pure thread derailing.

 

So to summarize in a bit more coherent way, two things: 1) "unorthodox, yet oddly palatable" approach in regards to flow, pop songwriting 2) "Same, familiar basis but different interpretation and nuances". I might express my thoughts rather oddly as some may point it out but I am hands down sure at least some "matured " (not to belittle younger generations ofc) J-music listeners get what I am saying...

 

 

Edited February 4, 2017 by Alroy

[zaa_zaa 208]

Carmelzors >> that's the video I wanted to put in my previous reply,  thanks for posting it here.

 

Regarding everything else that you say - 100% agree.

[hiroki 5521]

1 hour ago, zaa_zaa said:

We all can enjoy whatever we want, but the point I was making is that certain listeners of any genre sometimes tend to glorify what they listen to, when, objectively speaking, even from a technical side their favourites are mediocre. It's like me arguing that what I listen to is "good" music, whereas what you listen to is "bad" music.

 

because sometimes technical proficiency isn't the most important reason, and definitely isn't the only reason, why people listen to the music they listen to and fall in love with the bands they fall in love with. this thing we call "taste" is nothing but an amorphous placeholder for an incredibly complex web of factors including instincts and temperament, environmental and psychological factors, linguistic/cultural affiliations, etc. that no amount of theoretical analysis can ever hope to untangle. even in the extremely rare instance that you can find another person who agrees with you on every single point you make about a band both of you mutually enjoy, i'm willing to bet that the basis for your value judgments about the band will still diverge, simply because, if nothing else, you are two different people.

 

if i'm to push this even further: many people seem to think that 'technical proficiency' is a clear-cut term that requires no further explication. that's far from true. while it's the case that fans would be deeply relieved to find their favorite singers hitting the notes they're supposed to hit and their guitarists executing their tremolos and harmonics competently, it's too easy to name instances where artists who do things generally not recognized as 'proficient' actually making a difference. the pianist claudio arrau, when he was still alive, was constantly ridiculed by musicologists and critics for how slowly he plays his beethoven sonatas (check out his "walden" for starters), but he's now posthumously credited with reading beethoven insightfully with an introspection no beethoven specialist had possessed. likewise, in the realm of art, when henri matisse became bound to his wheelchair in the later part of his life and could no longer hold a paintbrush, he began making 'cut-outs' as art (hardly the pinnacle of artistic virtuosity, you would think...), yet on hindsight his technique directly spawned at least three different art movements in the mid-late 20th century. so if there isn't even a ahistorical standard of what qualifies as 'technical proficiency' in the realm of high art where you'd think experts would have come to some sort of agreement after centuries of bickering debate, attempting to hold it up as some governing authority that ought to adjudicate people's tastes in popular music seems to me rather presumptuous.

 

but to quote you again:

 

1 hour ago, zaa_zaa said:

Regarding japanese bands having a specific sound - yes, I agree with you, but I assume one can make such a claim about almost any country's music, be it Russian, Portugese or whatever, since one has to look at traditional music and scales that were dominant in that country.

 

and with this you basically just answered your own question. even though music traverses linguistic boundaries, its cultural influences remain unique. musically that's definitely the case (just look at how prevalent the major 7th chord is in japanese pop, compared to western pop). then there's the issue of language that comes into play. it would take a separate long post for me to defend why some people find lyrics to be important, but suffice to say, a song by definition has words, so unless we are going to pretend that all songs are operatic arias in disguise, it's only to be expected that some prefer how meaning is communicated in one language to another (which again has to do with a whole bunch of linguistic features: syntax, structure of address, sociopragmatics, and so on). you might not find the words in the song to be particularly important to your enjoyment of the music (and ofc there's no reason why you should), but it shouldn't be alarming that there are people who attend to that aspect of the song because it's important to them. there's also the phonetic aspect that some people above have already mentioned.

 

Edited February 4, 2017 by hiroki

[Pretsy 1343]

9 minutes ago, zaa_zaa said:

Carmelzors >> that's the video I wanted to put in my previous reply,  thanks for posting it here.

 

Regarding everything else that you say - 100% agree.

No probs!

 

In regards to further reading or watching:

 

http://blog.animeinstrumentality.net/2013/06/asias-favorite-chord-progression-a-look-inside/

https://twelvearchives.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/japanese-harmonies-understanding-traditional/

 

And more if you just google out some specific terms like say "Royal Road" or just

 

 

 

Pardon my geeky BS there but it's one damn fascinating subject for sure and pretty much something I have read a lot when self-assessing etc.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Alroy

[CAT5 9075]

24 minutes ago, Carmelzors said:

 Japanese ways of conveying otherwise "western" genres helped me to look and keep my *EAR* on nuances I usually either missed or never paid attention to in otherwise very "familiar, palatable" english/mother tongue-based music. 

 

 

I've experienced this as well! For example, rock music was something that I largely avoided up until around 2004/2005 when I started developing an interest in Japanese rock.  As a result, getting into J-rock opened me up to the world of rock in general. It essentially pierced the veil of my biases and cultural indoctrination, and offered me a new perspective - one that I think furthered my appreciation. I still listen to and prefer J-rock on the whole, but because of it, I've been able to branch out and enjoy some things outside of Japan too.

 

11 hours ago, herpes said:

French, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Icelandic are all Languages spoken within the eu and while none of them have a similar structure to a Japanese syllable (I'm wording this terribly but I hope it comes across), they all are soft like Japanese and flow well. 

 

I don't know any Dutch music, but I just wanted to say I that agree that those other languages are really easy on the ears. Let me know if you actually do come across the Icelandic version of THE NOVEMBERS  

[Lestat 2167]

6 minutes ago, CAT5 said:

I don't know any Dutch music, but I just wanted to say I that agree that those other languages are really easy on the ears. Let me know if you actually do come across the Icelandic version of THE NOVEMBERS  

 

Lies! Remember that medley I once sent you? 

 

 

[CAT5 9075]

22 minutes ago, Lestat said:

 

Lies! Remember that medley I once sent you? 

 

LMAO. I  think anyone in their right mind would want to forget about that 

[Tokage 5930]

5 minutes ago, CAT5 said:

I don't know any Dutch music

 

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

Here's an example of Dutch 'alternative' pop, I guess. In my opinion, it does sound a lot less 'rough' than German, but I think even German can sound good in certain contexts so w/e

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HIBf6vTVPo

 

Unfortunately, as far as I know there's no native language-equivalent to The Novembers or anything like that, most shoegaze-y/dreampop bands tend to play in English, ex. thse guys: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbb0IYngK4g

 

sorry for derailing the thread lmao

 

 

[zaa_zaa 208]

54 minutes ago, hiroki said:

if i'm to push this even further: many people seem to think that 'technical proficiency' is a clear-cut term that requires no further explication. that's far from true.

 

Yep, true that.

 

There are so many examples when artists with music that wasn't complex were not only famous, but also became icons.

Like Viktor Tsoi - almost anyone can play all the songs he wrote, yet, he was the voice of the generation. And it also ties up with what you said about the  "incredibly complex web of factors" - precisely because of this web of factors he became such an icon.

 

So yeah, I have to agree with the logic in your reply.

[Pretsy 1343]

11 hours ago, herpes said:

 

While this is true for German - that language is phonetically repulsive - I think it's a little unfair to use that as the example. French, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Icelandic are all Languages spoken within the eu and while none of them have a similar structure to a Japanese syllable (I'm wording this terribly but I hope it comes across), they all are soft like Japanese and flow well. The Icelandic Novembers are probably just as easy to listen to. 

I am curious about how you perceive e.g. uralic languages (e.g. Finnish, Estonian) together with Japanese as a case in point when it comes to hearing agglutinative languages/languages with otherwise non-Germanic phonetic/flow approaches per se.

 

Might as well ask others since it's kinda funny to hear things about how our language (well, Finnish duh) would be "as melodic as Japanese to certain degree" compared to how most people start blasting shite on e.g. Swedish (tbqh it works in a decent variety of musical branches - except in case guys like Yohio consider using it seriously in Swed-kei music) or German/Dutch for that matter.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Alroy

[Tokage 5930]

I feel like Finnish and Estonian both most definitely belong to that category of melodic languages, and in fact I've had more than one Estonian tell me that they believed some perceived similarity in ' linguistic flow' actually helped them to acquire Japanese and/or Korean at a faster & easier rate

[enyx 903]

16 hours ago, CAT5 said:

Phonetically

Cheers.

[Mamo 1172]

I think I 'd like to point out something everyone here has seem to have overlooked. This is a Japanese music forum correct? Could this be a reason for the preferences and biases mentioned in this thread? Also from my personal experience American's tend to do the same with music of other languages and almost seem to only enjoy a band if they speak English but as mentioned here perhaps that in itself is also merely a  "phonetic" preference on their part. But let's assume we were on an American music forum. Would you not expect the same type of biases?