Do Japanese men dislike visual kei?

[lichtlune 915]

Every live I've ever seen of  a visual kei show has had only females in the crowd. I don't think I've ever seen a male in the crowd. Why is that? Are men embarrassed to be seen at those types of shows or is there some cultural reason behind it? I can kind of understand for some acts but the same is true even for a lot of the heavy metal vk concerts too. Is visual kei not "real metal" for them or something? When I went to see The Gazette when they toured the U.S. there were both men and women in the crowds. Maybe the men prefer to stay in the back of the crowds and that's why it seems to skewed? 

Edited September 13, 2017 by lichtlune

[itsukoii 1300]

probably embarrassed lol. although i always thought the ratio of female fans to male fans was very unbalanced anyways, especially in japan

 

but i guess this is why male-only lives were created?

[platy 3018]

The band members market themselves for women. It's like the female idol industry, I went to an idol live once and there were only men watching, not a female in sight apart from the group performing.  

Hot men in make up who seem readily available = mostly female fans

Cute girls who seems readily available = pretty much just dude fans

 

Metal/rock/etc. attracts all kinds of people in the west, but these niche groups in Japan (VK & Idols) market themselves in such a way that I think it 'segregates' who can enjoy the group to the fullest. (Lives, taking part in the community, instore events, etc.)

[Takadanobabaalien 3607]

56 minutes ago, lichtlune said:

Every live I've ever seen of  a visual kei show has had only females in the crowd. I don't think I've ever seen a male in the crowd. Why is that? Are men embarrassed to be seen at those types of shows or is there some cultural reason behind it? I can kind of understand for some acts but the same is true even for a lot of the heavy metal vk concerts too. Is visual kei not "real metal" for them or something? When I went to see The Gazette when they toured the U.S. there were both men and women in the crowds. Maybe the men prefer to stay in the back of the crowds and that's why it seems to skewed? 

 

The majority of the japanese fans are indeed girls/women, that being said - there still exists male fans. They're called ギャ男 (gyao, slang for bangya + boy). I have some japanese gyao friends who I've been to lives with and it's usually very fun. Of course it all depends on the band as well, I've never seen nokubura live but from what I've heard they have a big male audience for a vk band (probably because of their heavy music), when I attended a Avelcain boys only live one of my gyao friends told me most guys there was gay (he's gay himself as well), and for some reason I think that's the case a lot of the time. Also the fact that boys only live exists proves that there is indeed male fans. 

 

But to answer your question: yes, most japanese men (and women) dislike visual kei. It's a small and niched scene. 

[lichtlune 915]

21 minutes ago, Takadanobabaalien said:

 

The majority of the japanese fans are indeed girls/women, that being said - there still exists male fans. They're called ギャ男 (gyao, slang for bangya + boy). I have some japanese gyao friends who I've been to lives with and it's usually very fun. Of course it all depends on the band as well, I've never seen nokubura live but from what I've heard they have a big male audience for a vk band (probably because of their heavy music), when I attended a Avelcain boys only live one of my gyao friends told me most guys there was gay (he's gay himself as well), and for some reason I think that's the case a lot of the time. Also the fact that boys only live exists proves that there is indeed male fans. 

 

But to answer your question: yes, most japanese men (and women) dislike visual kei. It's a small and niched scene. 

Are non-vkei shows different? It seems so strange to me. As if fans only attend vk lives if the members of said band are the sex they're attracted to. Looking at this exist trace live video it seems they have mostly male fans. What have you guys observed from the Visual Kei lives in your countries? 

 

Edited September 13, 2017 by lichtlune

[Komorebi 2193]

2 hours ago, platy said:

The band members market themselves for women. It's like the female idol industry, I went to a live once and there were only men watching, not a female in sight apart from the group. 

Hot men in make up who seem readily available = mostly female fans

Cute girls who seems readily available = pretty much just dude fans

This. I went to see exist trace  recently and 90% of the fans were male

 

1 hour ago, lichtlune said:

What have you guys observed from the Visual Kei lives in your countries? 

In Chile i'd say it's about 70% female 30% male for VK bands with cute members (this depends a lot on the band though), a more even ratio for bands with heavier music/90's and early 2000's bands and probably 60% male and 40% female for non-visual rock bands.

I conducted a very informal survey and while women tend to prefer bands with male members, guys listen to both girl bands (exist trace, Scandal, Band Maid etc) and male-bands evenly.

Also, the amount of gay male fans isn't really outstanding compared to other genres, most male fans I know and hang out with have girlfriends.

 

This is a topic/social phenomenon that actually interests me a lot.

[platy 3018]

2 hours ago, lichtlune said:

Are non-vkei shows different? It seems so strange to me. As if fans only attend vk lives if the members of said band are the sex they're attracted to. Looking at this exist trace live video it seems they have mostly male fans. What have you guys observed from the Visual Kei lives in your countries? 

 

In London I'd say most lives I've been to were well balanced, pretty much 50/50. Apart from SuG which I think  90% of the people there were girls . 

[plastic_rainbow 2162]

from what i've seen there are definitely japanese male fans out there, it's just that they make up a smaller portion of the overall vk fan base. i remember seeing at least a couple male fans when i went to see mejibary and arlequin. who knows, maybe there are male fans who like the music but don't attend the lives? since they mainly appeal to female fans. i've always wondered what a boys only live was like. do they do things differently from usual...? @Takadanobabaalien what was your experience like and did it seem different than a normal vk live with mostly females in the crowd? that avelcain boys only live sounds fun btw.......

 

for non-vk shows it seems like a mixed bag to me since it's less on the visuals/opposite sex and more about liking the music itself. unless of course, if we're talking about idol groups/boy groups then the opposite gender will likely make up the majority of the fan base.

Edited September 14, 2017 by plastic_rainbow

[jiji94 78]

I've known some Japanese guys who definitely like visual kei bands but it depends on the band. I know for quite a few of the bands I like that when watching live DVDs they have male fans. I used to know a guy who went to a lot of lives and was a huge fan but he was also gay.

 

Most guys I know love indie and/or mainstream J-rock when we've talked about music we both like (orrr are huge pop fans, the amount of EXILE fanboys I know..). If they're really into music or play music themselves then they usually know of and like a few visual kei bands for the sound.

[seikun 317]

I would say the fanbase in Chile is pretty even between both sexes. Women tend to focus more on looks and how "hot" an VK seems to be whereas men focus more on the music. Men usually show more interest in the whole music history of bands. For some men VK looks has to do with finding a safe place where rigid social expectations men face can be left aside, things like having to wear formal suits, very short hair, etc.

 

I don't think gay men find VK artists appealing at all.  Femininity and men dressing like women are a turn-off when you are gay. But it can be enjoyable as an arstistic performance and the capacity to relieve, as I said before, rigid social expectations for men.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2017 by seikun

[The Moon 989]

3 hours ago, Takadanobabaalien said:

 

 when I attended a Avelcain boys only live one of my gyao friends told me most guys there was gay (he's gay himself as well), and for some reason I think that's the case a lot of the time. Also the fact that boys only live exists proves that there is indeed male fans. 

 

But to answer your question: yes, most japanese men (and women) dislike visual kei. It's a small and niched scene. 

 

kaya WHO #karmaqueenofgays 

[emmny 4139]

21 minutes ago, The Moon said:

 

kaya WHO #karmaqueenofgays 

i was literally just thinking like how would ANY straight men stan the melodrama that is avelcain? who needs a jdrama when you have those emo queens?! marcus verified my existence.

[Takadanobabaalien 3607]

45 minutes ago, The Moon said:

 

kaya WHO #karmaqueenofgays 

lmao, right! as a matter of fact, it was lycaon x avelcain twoman boys only (https://www.last.fm/event/3913666+『-BOY’Z+ONLY-男の中の男!!!!!!』) live now that I think of it. It was very fun and we were a total of 20~guys in the audience. it was very intense though. I remember at one point the vocalist of Lycaon grabbing a guys head and pushing it against his crotch for a good 3~ minutes or so while singing. funny thing though, my friend also told me that it is not unheard of for girls to try and dress up as boys and get in to boys only lives because there's less people and it's more intimate. 

 

@lichtlune

I've never attended a non-vk gig in japan (except for a band I saw in a jazzbar in setagaya-ku, we were 3 ppl in total lmao), but a friend of mine saw the band with wolf heads (man with a mission?) and according to him it was the same as seeing any other western band in the west. 

[qotka 433]

12 minutes ago, Takadanobabaalien said:

a friend of mine saw the band with wolf heads (man with a mission?) and according to him it was the same as seeing any other western band in the west. 

yeah, non-vkei bands feel pretty much like going to a 'regular' concert in the west.

i saw miyavi this year and he had the oral cigarettes opening for him, and there were more men than women there for them. it was brutal - vkei lives made me soft. i don't think i've ever been pushed like that at any other live in japan.

[zaa_zaa 208]

4 hours ago, lichtlune said:

Are non-vkei shows different? It seems so strange to me. As if fans only attend vk lives if the members of said band are the sex they're attracted to. Looking at this exist trace live video it seems they have mostly male fans. What have you guys observed from the Visual Kei lives in your countries? 

 

ahhh, man

let's be honest.

The idea of visual-kei is to sell a perfect image of somebody that doesn't exist.

Same with all of the pop-idols. This is an industry, first of all, music comes secondary. We have a target audience of 18-year old Japanese girls, most likely obsessed with androgynous male image and who read a lot of josei and shojo manga.. They are not gonna buy music in general - they don't give a shit about that. What you can sell to them is an image.

 

as it was once put:
"No, they’re sexy, but they don’t exist in the same universe as the fans. They don’t have chlamidya, they don’t worry about child support payments, they don’t have girlfriends or baby-mamas. They don’t have a stinky van. The fans don’t want to think about that! They want a dream, (not a man or a woman), they want a higher being, a look out of a fairy-tale. That’s why we do all the makeup and hair. It’s not about the guitars or playing A-flat in a Lydian mode."

In case you didn't notice - it's the same thing with anime. It will always cater to the male audience, because we tend/are willing to spend whatever money we have on our obsession - be it motorbykes or fuck-pillows. And if you take socially awkward males who had no success with women and life in general, and sell them over-sexualized image and play on their instincts - oh boy, you get a really good chunk of revenue. So you can see the similarities with the visual-kei approach here.

 

So, the visual-kei's target audience just does the same - spending whatever they have on their obsession. The difference is that visual-kei found its small (really small) niche of fans who are ready to do that. If we take population in general - it will not work. But it just takes whatever mental image/ideal the fans have, wrap it in a nice way, add a little bit of consumer psychology/evolutionary psychology and neurobiology (yes, it's the thing, I highly recommend reading material on how the last two infuence what we buy and how much we are willing to spend) - and you get your revenue =)

 

Hence, we have a situation, that mostly females go to visual-kei gigs (because it was created for them), mostly (hungry/semi-virgin) males go for female pop-idols' gigs (because it was created for them), and etc. Which is fine.

It's all about money, not the art.

Edited September 14, 2017 by zaa_zaa

[Komorebi 2193]

 

1 hour ago, seikun said:

I would say the fanbase in Chile is pretty even between both sexes. Women tend to focus more on looks and how "hot" an VK seems to be whereas men focus more on the music.

LMAO for real? I've seen girls give some pretty interesting insights about the musical aspect and guys fanboying all over Mana's "perfection".

[Elazmus 1873]

I'm a straight man and I only love bands w the sexiest boys, on god I dunno why.

im rly w it but idk y im rly w it

 

[qotka 433]

1 hour ago, Komorebi said:

 

LMAO for real? I've seen girls give some pretty interesting insights about the musical aspect and guys fanboying all over Mana's "perfection".

this. i've spoken to enough gya who would notice any minute change in a song arrangement and analyze lyrics/the meaning behind something artistic (or "artistic") a band has put out.

 

but sure, some of them are in it for the fantasy, and that's awesome too. don't see much of a difference between dudes who don't know a lot about music and flail over cool guitar solos/how badass this and that musician is and gya who react pretty much the same about pretty bandoman.

 

 

[LIDL 692]

2 hours ago, seikun said:

I don't think gay men find VK artists appealing at all.  Femininity and men dressing like women are a turn-off when you are gay.

 

 

 

 

 

Couldn't be more wrong. Otherwise please explain drag culture and femme gay men then?

Gay community are very vast tbh.

 

[seikun 317]

21 minutes ago, LIDL said:

 

Couldn't be more wrong. Otherwise please explain drag culture and femme gay men then?

Gay community are very vast tbh.

 

I think people tend to hold lots of misconceptions about homosexuality or try to rationalise it through heterosexual standards.

 

Femininity is not attractive for gay men; masculinity is attractive. Visual Kei artists are hardly attractive for gay men because they are making a effort to look like or resemble women and, being gay you are not attracted to women and female traits. Not many even like Visual Kei.

 

The appeal in drag queens is in their sense of humour and their overall performances. That's what people look for in drag queens. They are not seen as attractive. As matter of fact, it is the case drag queens have a hard time finding boyfriends because most men are not attracted to that female persona or the ambiguity in gender expression that most of them make display of even when out of drag. That is why there is some sort of clash because most gay men look for and pair with masculine gay men.

 

Visual Kei and drag are appreciated as art forms and their capacity to entertain and even say things; but they are not held as beauty standards for men among gay men.

 

There is a difference between finding a Visual Kei artist beautiful when he embodies a woman and femininity and finding him sexually desirable.

Edited September 14, 2017 by seikun

[seikun 317]

1 hour ago, Komorebi said:

 

LMAO for real? I've seen girls give some pretty interesting insights about the musical aspect and guys fanboying all over Mana's "perfection".

I never said women don't pay attention to their music; I said women tend to focus more on looks and how attractive a VK artist can be to them.

 

[LIDL 692]

8 minutes ago, seikun said:

I think people tend to hold lots of misconceptions about homosexuality or try to rationalise it through heterosexual standards.

 

Femininity is not attractive for gay men; masculinity is attractive. Visual Kei artists are hardly attractive for gay men because they are making a effort to look like or resemble women and, being gay you are not attracted to women and female traits. Not many even like Visual Kei.

 

The appeal in drag queens is in their sense of humour and their overall performances. That's what people look for in drag queens. They are not seen as attractive. As matter of fact, it is the case drag queens have a hard time finding boyfriends because most men are not attracted to that female persona or the ambiguity in gender expression that most of them make display of even when out of drag. That is why there is some sort of clash because most gay men look for and pair with masculine gay men.

 

Visual Kei and drag are appreciated as art forms and their capacity to entertain and even say things; but they are not held as beauty standards for men among gay men.

 

There is a difference between finding a Visual Kei artist beautiful when he embodies a woman and femininity and finding him sexually desirable.

 

Are those facts or just assumption?

Actually as a gay man myself I see those far from what happened in reality.

I mean, you do know that these drag queens have trades in every cities they performed in, right?

There are gay men who are into men in make up, either sexually or mentally. And you shouldn't count them out.

IMHO, your opinion mostly based on generalization of what Gay people are.

 

 

[Ikna 1225]

30 minutes ago, seikun said:

I think people tend to hold lots of misconceptions about homosexuality or try to rationalise it through heterosexual standards.

 

Femininity is not attractive for gay men; masculinity is attractive. Visual Kei artists are hardly attractive for gay men because they are making a effort to look like or resemble women and, being gay you are not attracted to women and female traits. Not many even like Visual Kei.

 

Are you a gay man? Do you know gay guys? Because you sure are generalizing things based on your subjective "experience". And that whole "feminine men are not wanted by gay guys" thing falls apart even when you take it to reverse the orientation. If all gay and bi men only like men who are stereotypically masculine how come straight and bisexual women who are also into men can be attracted to androgynous and feminine guys? By your logic absolutely no one would be attracted to fem guys. And we all know that's not true.

 

Also go ask some of the gay guys here on MH if they find bandmembers hot. I am sure you will some crushing answers.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Ikna

[seikun 317]

6 minutes ago, LIDL said:

 

Are those facts or just assumption?

Actually as a gay man myself I see those far from what happened in reality.

I mean, you do know that these drag queens have trades in every cities they performed in, right?

There are gay men who are into men in make up, either sexually or mentally. And you shouldn't count them out.

IMHO, your opinion mostly based on generalization of what Gay people are.

 

 

 

Then you should be well aware of the fem vs masc clash.

Yes, there are some men who actually don't care about a partner who wears makeup and etc, however, that is not the rule but the exception. For every rule there is an exception.  You yourself said it "there are men who..."; just not a general of what most find attractive about men or expect of men.

Visual Kei doesn't appeal to most people and that also applies to LGB people. Many either don't know about it or don't like the music so it should ot be taken as an indicator.

 

Like I said before, there is a difference between finding the spectacle of a man embodying a woman or femininty beautiful and finding him sexually desirable.

[seikun 317]

40 minutes ago, Ikna said:

 

Are you a gay man? Do you know gay guys? Because you sure are generalizing things based on your subjective "experience". And that whole "feminine men are not wanted by gay guys" thing falls apart even when you take it to reverse the orientation. If all gay and bi men only like men who are stereotypically masculine how come straight and bisexual women who are also into men can be attracted to androgynous and feminine guys? By your logic absolutely no one would be attracted to fem guys. And we all know that's not true.

 

Also go ask some of the gay guys here on MH if they find bandmembers hot. I am sure you will some crushing answers.

 

I think I am so I know what I'm talking about.

Please, don't put words in my mouth. I never said no one should be attracted to feminine men, that's ridiculous conclusion. I said femininity is not attractive for gay men. While some are attracted to femininity most aren't.

There are lots of gay websites and forums that discuss the topic as well as videos on YT because it is the case that gay men tend to look for masculine gay men which has created some kind of clash that people informally call fems vs mascs and the like. Likewise, browse through gay websites and see what kind of men they select for the sexy factor. Read the comments, etc.

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2017 by seikun