VK Fan Turnover rates

[Kuro 45]

1 hour ago, cheesy_VK_Freak said:

On the contrary, Dir en grey and the Gazette being the probably biggest VK-band, and still a lot of interviews on the net without translations.

I can only talk about Gazette here and not about lots of years ago, but for translations there's quite some work going on still. For lyrics I know about very good ones since 2013 (there are quite some missing, especially from before 2013, but those available are really good) and there's also someone going through their social media posts and also working on interviews, recent and also partly older ones (I wouldn't say really old ones though and I don't know, if there have been translations of these when the interviews came out in like since 2013 I think, but ain't sure because I didn't check on that stuff back then).

 

It's not that much I know but it's better than nothing.

And speaking of just me as much as I love the visual aspect the music is still the most important part to me. And with what I listen to there's nothing I ever found outside of VK. So I don't care, whether there are translations (because they don't make up for the music) or not.

[lichtlune 915]

I don't really like modern visual kei bands that much even the so called "good" bands like kizu or DIMLIM so I've already sort of turned over a bit. I noticed that my listening habits were getting stale and that my last.fm scrobbles were getting lower and lower every year so something had to change. Then I found 80s jpop and my interest in Japanese music has risen quite substantially again I think. I hope we see another western boom again in the scene soon but who knows if I will even enjoy the music if and when that occurs. 

[Desqui 48]

In its heyday there were tons and tons of VK lyric translations and people scanning every page of VK magazines and translating some articles. Translating DVD messages and interviews and the random obscure blogposts. Loads of illegal downloading and/or finding that one person attending lives and willing to collect and ship live merch. Live reports. Albeit all online. Losing these people and sites that offered all this I believe is what made VK inaccessible for new fans. From what I can tell too it's very hard for an act to go overseas, if they could even think of going. If they'd even Think of going - VK is still very pro Japan (only). The big guys maybe yeah no problem but part of the fun is finding the niche little guys. Don't you remember? Going major meant you were a sell out!

 

I'm not sure what Kpop has but it's not like suddenly everybody knows Korean like they knew Japanese. The Kpop world is front page stuff. VK has always been underground. Kpop also has the advantage of many Korean americans or Korean what nation have you that know English-s. Lots of Kpop Koreans know English way better than VK Japanese know English. So getting Kpop stuff is far more easily accessible and it has a better broader global attitude. They scout the globe. Maybe a more equal comparison would be Jpop fans moving to Kpop? I'm assuming Jpop is front page stuff too and they have better English speakers than VK.

[nekkichi 6043]

14 hours ago, Desqui said:

You're killing my dreams here!

 

[Romlaw 82]

I have seen people mentioning this ITT already but I want to stress how your age when you started listening is really important. When you like something, you ask the question to yourself, "why do I like this?"

 

The answer will be vague when you are young, because this is a point where you are a fickle being, because you are discovering a lot of things in a short spam of time, you kinda want to try it out and also depending in a lot of other factors in your life (social circle and even your OWN appearance influences this) you will be more fickle than most for that young part of your life.

 

But there will come a point in your life where you will finally set you own "tier-list" of things that are important because you will have experienced enough things to know what you really like more. Of course this doesn't mean you are set for life in never discovering new things, but these things will not be that much different from what value the most by now.

 

When you get to this point in life, you will be able to answer the question "why do I like this?" more precisely. Great topic btw, always like seeing discussion about this

[monkeybanana4 1732]

I've placed my thoughts under a spoiler tag because my fingers got keyboard happy.

 

Spoiler

 

The comments about the fluidity between VK and Kpop reminds me of something I heard at one of the lives during the Gazette's last world tour. I forgot the exact incident, but when waiting in line, I heard a pair of friends who liked Gazette's music talking about their experience at a BTS concert they attended. I guess it's an interesting example of how people can easily cross the boundaries between the different music genres. Although, the argument could be made that many of those people don't actually listen to VK itself, and maybe only listen to the Gazette, seeing as they've played that one opening song for the Black Butler anime (which brought in a whole different fanbase and exposure for the band).

 

The more you dig deep into how the VK industry works, it isn't too different from the way idols work (with the selling of chekis, photocards, meet & greet events, and the other not-so-innocuous stuff going on behind the scenes). VK has its own lingo and seemingly bizarre cultural practices, but both VK and Kpop present beautiful and aesthetically good-looking people (mostly men in VK's case). VK is a niche, underground scene playing rock unlike Kpop, which is enjoying mainstream popularity both in Asia and in the West. Also, as people have mentioned already, Kpop is much more easily accessible and cheaper while VK, even now, still remains largely inaccessible and is also more expensive. The accessibility problem that plagues VK can also be applied to a lot of Japanese music, which still region locks its content and prevents those living outside of Japan from listening/buying their music products. Including all the rambling I wrote beforehand, as people in earlier posts have articulated, people also probably switched over to Kpop due to either age, changes in circumstances, and/or loss of interest with visual kei.

 

As for myself, I remember being attracted to VK for its unique combination of aesthetic and music. Granted, it wasn't completely brand new since VK has its roots in glam rock and other types of music originating from the West. But the way it was presented was different from anything I had seen. Not to mention, from what I remember, rock/alternative rock was quite popular in the West during this time (early to mid 2000s). Combine this with heavy interest in anime, manga, and videogames, and just being an overall silly weeb for Japanese stuff, I was immediately hooked onto VK. Not to mention, the internet, although still relatively new at the time, was a helpful tool in discovering VK. Thus, the timing was ripe as probably was the case for many people. Hence, the golden years of visual kei.

 

It was sometime after the golden years when I stopped keeping up with VK releases and news because life in general got busy. But I never stopped listening to VK itself (mainly listening to older stuff). So, I guess I never fully dropped it, and I still find enjoyment discovering old bands I missed out on or never had a chance to listen to before. As of now, I can't see myself dropping out of VK. I guess VK, as someone stated earlier, requires more time, energy, and investment, and people may not want to devote that much to it. Many new VK bands last for only three to six months or a year before disbanding at the drop of a hat, and the next thing you know, twenty more VK bands/acts pop up to take its place. I'm getting off topic at this point, but I think it'll be interesting to see how VK will change or whether it'll die out like other fads/subculture. And I literally wrote way too crap, lol ^^;

 

 

Anyways, a really great topic!

[GreatNorthernVK 183]

Echoing what a couple of people have gotten at, the turnover of VK fans to K-pop is largely due to the accessibility of the fandom (or lack thereof, in VKs case).

 

The main difference is... the Kpop industry actually wanted the west’s engagement. Even if it’s just “share the fuck out of our music videos, and spam pictures of us on Twitter”. The VK industry’s response to this was “How did you get those music videos!? How did you get those magazine scans!? Region lock everything!!”

 

Eventually, western fans got tired of having to beg for crumbs, spend twice as much as Japanese fans for half the experience, and having any rare overseas lives still be more about flexing to their domestic fanbase than about catering to the foreign fanbase.

 

The irony here is that the “boom” of VK in the west was precisely due to the same promotion methods that Kpop acts use today (though on a smaller scale, as most of the groundwork occurred prior to the popularity of social media). The management of the bands that came over, however, were largely oblivious as to why this happened. So they just assumed they could do exactly as they did in Japan, but half-assed, and their fanbase would continue to grow.
 

This just built up hope that VK would eventually be more accessible, only for the momentum to die down once management realized that it wasn’t as simple as they thought. This discouraged many, and they lost interest after ~2010, even if they had been a fan long before 2007. Most of my friends fall into this category.

[Yuan 16]

This is a such an interesting topic, and many of your perspectives bring to light things I definitely agree with!

I guess I entered a frenzy and my message is pretty long, but here's my experience as someone who has kinda left the scene (but never really left, as I explain).

 

 First off, I got into vk when I was pretty young, in middle school. Metal and vk were the first genres of music I started being active in, as in, purchasing CDs, going to concerts, etc. Before that, it was all classical music (I started playing classical piano at 5 years old), and a bit of pop or rock here and there, and Gorillaz, because I always loved animation and well, all of their MVs were animated and I loved seeing them on TV. So when I got into vk, my musical horizons were quite narrow. I was basically a musical baby. I didn't know a lot of music, and my tastes were only starting to develop. As many have said in this thread, it's natural for tastes to change as you grow older, because you want to try new things, etc.

It's also worth pointing that I was really into manga (and still am lol), and branched out like many into "wow, Japanese culture is pretty cool", so it's why I was so drawn to Japanese music in general at first.

 

So at some point in high school, I wanted to broaden my horizons, and I did. I started listening to a lot of electronic music and jazz, and a wide spectrum of different genres. I was starting to figure out that I really loved music, no matter where it came from or what genre it was, and that I was fascinated with music history. But as that was happening, I also became more and more critical of vk, because I started to figure out that many younger bands I was following were pretty much doing the same gimmicks as older bands. I was also starting to learn about idol culture and how it worked. I must admit, idol culture really threw me off the more I learned about it, and it made me pretty much run away from the scene. I didn't feel so comfortable anymore in spending lots of money on merch now that I had a better understanding of the business model behind it.

 

On 6/10/2020 at 3:32 AM, cullucoo said:

I think one of the reasons VK might have such a high turn over rate is that a lot of people who listen to VK seems to listen to VK only. That's not an healthy way to approach an "hobby", and one is bound to get tired of it. It's also hard to follow bands for a long time since the lifespan of a vk band is shorter than average, so that might be turn off for people after a while. 

 

Also the way VK is "marketed" is closer to idol music than it is to """normal""" music, and just like how people stop following idols at some point, the same happens with VK. I dont consider the visual kei > kpop passage to be moving from one thing to another, but moving to a different version of the same thing. 

This post really summarizes how I viewed the shift that happened towards K-pop. To me, whether it was K-pop or vk, it was ultimately the same model, but with a different aesthetic.

 

Despite this, I didn't stop listening to vk altogether, and I still loved older bands, who are still active to this day. So I couldn't part with artists like DEG, Plastic Tree, MUCC, BUCK-TICK, etc. I stopped following very actively, but I still listened to them, which is why I don't consider I moved on from vk, but rather just expanded my tastes. Which, in truth, was only natural considering vk and metal were pretty much "my introduction to any music that isn't classical".

I have also since reconcilied with idol culture, as in, I am not really shocked by it anymore. I like to understand how it works, I'm thankful I have left my "the artists I follow are perfect" naive phase, and I can still be critical of many aspects of it (selling 10 versions of the same single is still bogus to me). But let's just say I've come to accept it for what it is lol.

 

But what was the most interesting to me, is that most from my friend group from back in the day did not have the same evolution at all. I definitely do remember that what killed most people's fun was D'espairsRay's disbanding. Basically, everyone that hadn't already moved on from vk, moved on soon after that. I was also on an A9 fanforum at the time, and their releases were starting to slow down. So it all happened over time and organically.

If I look at what those friends are listening to now, it's either: they don't really listen to much music anymore save for what they were listening to at the time (so 2000s vk and other artists), or they have moved on to K-pop.

The only conclusion I can draw from that is the same that was drawn by many people here: you're either in this for the music, or it's just a fandom, and fandoms come and go.

 

From my standpoint, and considering the very small number of small vk bands who caught my attention in the recent years, I can only wonder how the scene will evolve? I kinda have the feeling, like many I suppose, that the golden age of vk is over, much like glam rock is over with its boom. I hope I'm wrong and that we will see interesting developments in the years to come.

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Yuan

[JRD 5156]

I left VK for almost 2 years because the Kirakira craze made almost every band impossible to listen to, especially when they try to copy royz or some BP records band. I came back and the scene still sucks ass and has only a handful of talented bands. Helter Skelter is no more and they made quality music and Yuu's vocals sound exactly the same as on CD, live. So I have no hope for this scene until a bunch of American girls find VK and ditch BTS and make some band from Danger Crue, BP, or the Gazette. popular. Also I can't even leave the country cause Americans are banned from like every country because of muh freedoms and I don't have to wear a mask crowd.

[ghost 2687]

People have talked in great depth about the musical and listening aspect of turning from VK so I'll speak from more of a collector's perspective. For me the 2 main parts of collecting VK music that made me lose interest in the scene in recent years is boredom and exclusivity.

 

1. It just got boring collecting CDs over the years. Bands always had very predictable releases, your typical type-a or type-b for singles and regular/limited editions for albums with either bonus tracks or a PV DVD or something. The bigger bands put out more luxurious deluxe editions but those are usually just a giant box filled with stuff I never really cared for (like photo books) and I don't want to spend close to $90 for something I feel just lukewarm about. The last CD packaging I really got excited about was the GazettE's Dim limited edition but that was 10 years ago.

 

2. The live limited/fan club limited releases got old really fast. The first few times was exciting because who doesn't want to own a super limited and rare CD. But bands just kept pumping these out and that's when I folded. Regular/limited edition releases are already $40-$60 apiece and to have to shell out $60-$80 for a live single that I have to use a service for just didn't make sense. Sure, exclusivity isn't limited to just the VK scene but by this point I wasn't really invested in the music to want to go the extra lengths to collect exclusive items.

 

I understand there's a lot of decisions made related to catering to fans, using practices that are proven to work or financially makes sense, or trying to pack live performances that result in band's/label's decisions to release something a certain way, but it just isn't for me anymore.

Edited August 11, 2020 by ghost

[KrumpingChihuahua 108]

One thing coming to my mind, that especially made it easy to go to KPop instead VK, is the language barrier. 

I don't talk about the songs itself, but the musicans/singer/idol/whatever themselves. There are so many in VK who can't even talk the most simple english or understand it. Meanwhile Kpop groups start to all have a english speaker inside, or someone who is learning english. 

(I am talking now mainly about english because its aknowledged as international language)

The thing about this is, that especially foreign fans will feel more near if their 'idol' sometimes posts on social media in a language they know. 

Or you write a fan letter and you know he will be able to read it.

 

You guys understand what i am writing? I am not good at writing stuff like this down, i think. 

On 6/11/2020 at 10:14 PM, monkeybanana4 said:

The accessibility problem that plagues VK can also be applied to a lot of Japanese music, which still region locks its content and prevents those living outside of Japan from listening/buying their music products

Dont forget the cut off MVs. 

But beside this also TV shows or anything like this is so hard to get by because stuff gets straight away deleted from youtube. All over Japanese Music Industry was somehow never friendly towards outside.

(I do admit i am happy that they forbid cameras inside concerts, because i don't like those fancam stuff that is going on in KPop)

 

9 hours ago, Yuan said:

I'm thankful I have left my "the artists I follow are perfect" naive phase, and I can still be critical of many aspects of it (selling 10 versions of the same single is still bogus to me)

Happy to hear, other people had this awful phase too. 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, JRD said:

. So I have no hope for this scene until a bunch of American girls find VK and ditch BTS and make some band from Danger Crue, BP, or the Gazette. popular.

Apparently there are some kpop girls that started listening to vk too. But you can find that old fans or "hardcore" fans like to critise those girls a lot.  It think entering the VK fandom is unfortunatly quite hard. There are not a lot who welcome you with open arms. 

[Rahzel 110]

Lol to be honest I'm beginning to feel we have a discussion like this here monthly, only with a few different words maybe

 

To answer the beginning question well obvious... VK bands often don't last more than 2 or 3 years, so yeah it's not like you can just go back after years and your old fav is still kicking. There is going to be at least a drummer in jail for doing drugs or fighting in a bar or hospitalized or something lol.

Which brings us to it: VK is, well, usually not very gentlemanly. It's not the kind of culture you'd want to show your (japanese) kids or anything, so it's prone to not being very popular in general I guess ; and whenever it did get popular, that was because a few bands and bandomen took upon themselves to spread the word even worldwidely (which is a lot of work in itself and not one many bandomen would be up for honestly) and then they started appearing in variety shows and whatnot, which is ... what kpop stars do every single day. They wake up to plastic surgery, handcreams (trust me those feel marshmallow-y),  learning english (which in itself is a bit easier for Koreans I feel due to sounds and letters ...), global marketing strategies, perfect waifu/husbando image tm and variety shows with groups they are (not so) buddy-buddy with. It's just, well, a lot of marketing. Besides, k-pop sounds all the same which is positive for it as a "culture", while calling vk a "genre" means lumping X Japan and Purple Stone in the same box. And of course, well, not everyone who likes one would like the other.

 

Now on a more personal level I have never been a "typical visual kei fan" , as I never liked bands such as Malice Mizer / X Japan / Dir en Grey / old L'arc en Ciel  / the Gazette / (insert here any ~cool~ popular vk bands), I just liked some bands I heard in anime first (particularly Nightmare but also the occasional SID/PIERROT/MUCC/abingbon boys school ...?) OR knew through friends who liked "bigger" bands and acts, (such as alice nine/Miyavi idk)  which is how I first knew about visual kei while never being a "typical fan". And I guess many weeb kids are/were on the same boat lol which is why there is a lot of "turnover" ; it's not like they can go on gigs with a lot of bands so they can get to know other bands and buy cheki and live-exclusive albums and merch or anything, so yeah once their fav bands are gone (no matter how big they are/were,) they're done with it. Because, again, there is no "global marketing strategy" unlike, say, k-pop, so less accessible materials = you tend to be less obsessed about it and/or know less bands = more turnover as there is nothing to take that place (and, again, saying "if you like X Japan you may like Purple Stone lol" is ... not a thing. ) it requires a lot more effort in a sense so, unless you're reeeeeally obsessed with the whole cultural aspect of it (which is... very localized anyway,) you're prone to getting over it - and, well, the rebellious emo phase (fortunately) doesn't last forever for everyone I guess. (not saying everyone who likes vk is ANGSTY but yeah it takes an appreciation of an alternative aesthetic which is usually ... something you like when you are young ??). As for me I am definitely in that boat - I don't think I have ever considered myself a vk fan though if you ask me I'll say "oh yeah, I know it, it's ok", I've probably heard most popular bands at least and I was definitely a Nightmare fan by most standards for quite some time

 

In short, I guess I liked vk for the rock but also for the hand elephants and Mana variety shows, in which sense kpop definitely pales in comparision but I'll still take kpop over RAHFJSNDNNRRK *guttural noises* anyway. 🙊

 

Edit: It's worth mentioning I got back to vk because I was bored&unemployed and my kpop faves made a MV with Golden Bomber Jun as I translated Japanese videos for the fanbase, so of course I knew everything that was going on and I was rather surprised vk in itself was Still A Thing. So in my case that was The Call Of The Bandomen and not the other way around ironically

Edited August 11, 2020 by Chell

[Jrock-sama 2]

On 6/11/2020 at 7:02 AM, lichtlune said:

Then I found 80s jpop and my interest in Japanese music has risen quite substantially again I think.

Sort of the same for me, but more like 80s Japanese Adult-Contemporary genre, and more specifically a specific artist Anzen Chitai/Koji Tamaki that got my interest. And maybe a few jpop random 80s anime opening/ending songs. I still like music from the old vkei bands I loved but they all disbanded years ago, and I never really got into the newer vkei bands. Like what others have said the short lifespan of vkei bands/frequent disbandment is one of the reasons people move on to some other music genre. But for me I will never get into kpop, because I already did technically get into kpop in the beginning of the 2000s before I got into vkei/jrock, but  I also was into jpop at the same time as kpop waaay back then. So I have been there done that with kpop, and back then kpop was unknown outside of Asia, but modern kpop sounds way different than oldschool kpop, but both are for teens age group. I don't see the appeal of kpop now that I am way too old to find it appealing in my mid 30s, and I don't listen to the old early 2000s kpop stuff ever again since 15years ago. So even though I don't listen to new vkei music, unlike kpop which I never listen to ever again, every once in awhile I listen to my old favorite vkei songs. 

[Kabukichoatmidnight 269]

I can kind of understand why people lose interest in VK pretty fast. Personally I've been interested in it for a handful of years now but don't have the same love for it I once did. It's a very visually arty scene (duh!) which is attractive and there is decent music to be found alongside it. However, look at the scene, check the news thread here there are countless "new bands" popping up who never amount to anything, most bands who do last do nothing out the ordinary - have some nice visuals but generic music we've all heard MANY times before. Though you do get the odd band who are great and do really appeal and they end up completely changing style or disbanding as well. So basically, the average longevity of VK bands is pretty short and the new bands sound like dull versions of the bands you do like. Seems rare you get mind blowing VK bands nowadays. I still always support the bands I've always been into by buying their stuff and seeing them when in Japan if I can but the majority of bands I liked have either disbanded or changed style (to one I don't get much out of anymore) and most of the new bands are boring (in my opinion) so can see how people give up on the scene. But hell, there's always good music to be found (in any scene) and you can always enjoy the bands who do survive and still listen to the bands who you supported during their active time.