Separating art from artist

[psychonnect_rozen 585]

Many people in the entertainment industry have done many shitty and awful things. From murder to sex scandals, it has it all. Visual Kei is full of drama, ranging from tax evasion, scandals with label's. sex scandals, and many more. 

 

So like always, many fans of artists who have committed such crimes always have a hard time coming to terms with their favorite artists actions, As such, many people have started to separate the art from the artist. This has always been a defense of people who are still fans of many controversial artists. This does not go for music but in many other forms of entertainment as well. I think mostly everyone has done this, myself included, mostly with Kisaki. 

 

So as for questions:

 

1. What artists do you separate their art from their actions?

 

2. Is it a legitimate argument?

 

3. Do you think that one persons actions should generalize a whole band? (Ex. Kisaki and Phantasmagoria or any of his past bands)

 

EDIT: Just to clarify, I do NOT support Kisaki. He has done tons of shitty things and I absolutly despise him as a person. I'm on the whole "like them as a musician, hate the person"  

 

EDIT 2: Geez, this did not go well

Edited July 12, 2019 by psychonnect_rozen

[sleepy coffee 1476]

Tbh I dont blame people who cant listen to or support a band if it has shitty people in it but for the most part I personally dont really care. 

[colorful人生 2777]

1. Lostprophets, bands w/ Denis Stoff, Michael Jackson... there's a bunch tbh.
2. I do think it's a legitimate argument. A voice is an instrument, people are canvases, and a song is what you make of it. 
   1. However, music and performance is interpreted from individual-to-individual differently. If someone is uncomfortable with a band, artist's, or community's actions because that's what "makes" the experience for them, then that dislike is reasonable.
3. One person's actions shouldn't generalize a whole band and said person's success (or the band's success) shouldn't be blamed as the reason for "x". Individuals (or multiple individuals) are culpable for their own actions. Bands have many, many individuals behind them when it comes to production, post-production, advertising/marketing, stage preparation, etc. that attribute to their success. I'm certainly not going to hold all those individuals accountable for one person's misdeeds.

Edited July 12, 2019 by colorful人生

[God 264]

1. tbh?  i don’t think there are any. once i hear that a musician i like has done something really awful, when i listen to their music i just feel angry.  a good example of that is brand new.  their vocalist is a disgusting child predator, and he sings about being sad all the time bc he used to have a bright future but now he’s depressed.  tbh that feels like a slap in the face.  

 

2. not really.  sexual predators and dudes that beat up their girlfriends, wives, whatever else are trash.  i can’t imagine listening to their music and not thinking “you piece of shit, you did this thing.”

 

3. no.  but if the band members, or even one of the band members were aware of it and didn’t say anything or just kinda let it be?  then yeah, equally trash.

Edited July 12, 2019 by God
typo

[Himeaimichu 1535]

1. Devil Kitty. I'm a huge fan of that early 2000's Visual Kei sound, and when Yuuga isn't ripping his own stuff off, he's a pretty creative musician.

Kisaki, Yayoi (La'Miss Fairy, Garnet, etc.), Yukika (though I'm really hard on Yukika because of how he treated my favourite band. I ain't gonna lie he had some cool songs tho), and Wataru (12012) are more examples.

2. It can be. It really depends on the situation and it isn't a clear black or white. Generally, it's good not to support shitty artists though so buy used/pirate.

3. Hell no. Not unless the other members are complicit.

[Shmilly 519]

Personally speaking, I think an artist's personal life should be completely separate from their professional career, at least until the point that their misconduct becomes public knowledge. If an artist is doing something terrible in their free time, that has no bearing on their ability to produce music. If it emerges that an artist has been involved in some kind of scandal, it does become much more difficult to support their future endeavours, but that shouldn't come at the expense of writing off their past achievements. It's possible to be both a great musician and a shitty human being; whether that affects your enjoyment of their past career comes down to how well you can divorce their actions from their profession. And condemning all the other members and staff of a band - assuming that they aren't complicit - based on a single person's actions is just childish and unreasonable.

 

As for the whole 'using it as an argument' issue, as far as I'm concerned there is no argument to be had. Artists are just human like the rest of us and should be held to the same standards by society. That's why my apparently controversial post in Johnny's thread got so much attention - I think he was a terrible person, but I respect his achievements and influence on the whole industry as a professional. If you can't keep those things separate, you're just writing off a whole legacy based on one person's actions.

 

TLDR

Being a successful artist doesn't make you immune to the same laws and moral principles as the rest of society. It's no excuse.

BUT

Being a shitty person doesn't make you any less of a talented musician either.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Shmilly

[psychonnect_rozen 585]

4 minutes ago, Shmilly said:

controversial post in Johnny's thread

Who is this Johnny guy? Never heard of him. What did he do?

[Shmilly 519]

10 minutes ago, psychonnect_rozen said:

Who is this Johnny guy? Never heard of him. What did he do?

Founder of the biggest male talent/production agency in Japan (SMAP, Arashi etc) just died this week. Unfortunately he was also a suspected pedophile.

[Naaaaani 1173]

2 hours ago, Shmilly said:

It's possible to be both a great musician and a shitty human being

/thread

[Takadanobabaalien 3607]

2 hours ago, Shmilly said:

Founder of the biggest male talent/production agency in Japan (SMAP, Arashi etc) just died this week. Unfortunately he was also a suspected pedophile.

Suspected? Correct me if I'm wrong but has it not been verified that he did indeed sexually harass/molest his artists? 

[secret_no_03 959]

11 hours ago, God said:

1. tbh?  i don’t think there are any. once i hear that a musician i like has done something really awful, when i listen to their music i just feel angry.  a good example of that is brand new.  their vocalist is a disgusting child predator, and he sings about being sad all the time bc he used to have a bright future but now he’s depressed.  tbh that feels like a slap in the face. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/yvxkpv/realizing-youre-a-pedophile-can-make-you-want-to-kill-yourself

 

This could literally have something to do with it, maybe he thought he did until he realized he was a pedo and got extremely depressed and that self hatred helped fuel it, a vicious cycle.

[secret_no_03 959]

I don't do that with anyone, but there are several artists that if they went out and murdered a bunch of people I'd still listen to their music as I don't really care about what you do outside of music, but generally speaking most shitty people make awful music, Kisaki and a few others are the exception so you really don't have to worry about it that much 😅

[nekkichi 6043]

I still listen to rentrer en soi ca. 2005 and I know I shouldn't so idk 

[psychonnect_rozen 585]

28 minutes ago, nekkichi said:

rentrer en soi

Did they do something? Never heard anything bad about them and I have been listening to them recently 

[monkeybanana4 1732]

2 minutes ago, psychonnect_rozen said:

Did they do something? Never heard anything bad about them and I have been listening to them recently 

There's this thread/post that talks about some interesting things related to the RES band and the singer of RES (Satsuki):

 

 

[God 264]

1 hour ago, secret_no_03 said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/yvxkpv/realizing-youre-a-pedophile-can-make-you-want-to-kill-yourself

 

This could literally have something to do with it, maybe he thought he did until he realized he was a pedo and got extremely depressed and that self hatred helped fuel it, a vicious cycle.

well pedos should want to kill themselves tbqh.

[psychonnect_rozen 585]

20 minutes ago, monkeybanana4 said:

There's this thread/post that talks about some interesting things related to the RES band and the singer of RES (Satsuki):

 

 

The only thing that stood out was him shit talking Diru and him messaging underage fans and him and abortions. Other than that, he seems like an ass

[Masato 365]

I feel most of VK requires separating art from the artist as a lot of them have so much dirt, mitsu whatever bad treatment of tsunagari/mitsu going on...

 

And sooner or later the tea will be spilled...

[YuyoDrift 1540]

Ah, 2019: The year where most people give a shit about things they weren't even around for.

 

I'll go ahead and partake OP, as I've always wanted to share my thoughts on this as someone who has a self identity and wants to understand those who don't have one.

 

1. What artists do you separate their art from their actions?

 

All of them. Not a single time did I ever think to myself "Man, that CD/Merch I bought because I thought sounded/looked great, must sound/look so good because the people are so wholesome and the holiest of holy that they couldn't EVER do anything wrong.....".

No, I bought it because I wanted to.

 

Mind you, I apply this to everything that can be considered a work of art.

 

2. Is it a legitimate argument?

 

Depends, but overall not really. Sometimes I question people's rationality when it comes to things like being a fan or being interested in something for your own reasons.

 

If I bought let's say a painting, and at the time I didn't know or care about the origin or meaning behind it, I'd say that was a decision I made simply because I thought it looked great and would look better in my home/office. Now, if for some reason I found out it belonged to idk ..... Hitler, I'm going to be honest with you, I'd probably see fucking dollar signs for days on end. This is because I can see past Hitler the mass murderer and see him as the artist he was. I have a rare fucking painting that will go for millions of dollars and would end up in a museum if otherwise, I don't give a shit about anything else. I was not around during that time, and in fact my family weren't even on American soil either.

Am I greedy? Hmm....that's another topic. Am I cold-hearted bastard? No I see the reality. You might have not even read what I posted and just want to voice your useless opinion to make me feel like I'm going to be responsible (lol the fuck) for something that occurred so long ago and has nothing to do with me (my assumption since you didn't care about my insight, so I'm allowed to not care about yours and share how I feel about it too).

 

If other people would go out and say I support Nazism or something, and demand I burn it or tear it apart, I'd say you're fucking stupid. I'd say something else like "Oh yeah? Well goddamn, lets go to the most well known museum of art and burn the whole fucking place down, because I know of at least 1/2 of the artists that have art on display that "shouldn't". Sounds pretty fucking irrational if you ask me. Collectors of art/music can see past this, and so can the people who work at museums, simply because they CAN see past the person who might have done terrible things, and focus on what is related to their profession, the artist.

 

Bringing it back to music, it's even easier to separate. If someone like say Kisaki made all this music back in the 90's we enjoy, you have to remember that he made the music all back then. If you were alive and in Japan when it released, and knew some dirt on Kisaki that you can prove and date back to that same timeline, then you can hold an argument with me on this. But guess what? I'm pretty sure EVERYONE did what he might have done back then, and most likely got away with it. But let's pretend our world is perfect and say he was the odd man and single him out, kudos. Shady shit in Japan was a daily thing. I fucking love hearing about it as it gives Japan this flair for being badass and dangerous while proving that every society has its colors.

 

Fast forward today and no one cares or knows who Kisaki is among new fans, yet you learn about his current life and how he might suck at it hard, and now suddenly what? You, the fan from back then who probably has 1'' of dust of old demo tapes from la'sadie or whatever fucking band he was in in a box somewhere, and you are gonna throw them out? HAHAHA don't make me fucking choke, you're about as a big as a hypocrite as the people you have around you. Being played by the society that can easily turn on you at the drop of a hat. The you from back then called, they want you to get your fucking backbone back and decide what YOU want to do, and not what you feel society would want as a "justice served" spew of bullshit I'm tired of seeing on the internet.

 

3. Do you think that one persons actions should generalize a whole band? (Ex. Kisaki and Phantasmagoria or any of his past bands)?

 

I can't believe this is a question but OK, no, it shouldn't.

If people really dropped a band like say, lynch.  as of recently, for something like Akinori smoking some pot, then don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

No one gave a fuck.

 

 

[Seelentau 884]

17 hours ago, colorful人生 said:

1. Lostprophets, bands w/ Denis Stoff, Michael Jackson... there's a bunch tbh.

The FBI never found any indication that Michael Jackson was a kiddy diddler. Like, nothing at all. The entire thing is something fabricated by money-hungry people and their lawyers, in unison with the media's thirst for drama.

And Denis is just a dick, or did he do anything comparable to what Watkins did?

 

2 hours ago, God said:

well pedos should want to kill themselves tbqh.

Yeah, fuck them and their sexual orientation they have literally no control over. Because as we all know, only pedophiles do bad things because of their sexual orientation. A gay person has never raped another person ever! /s

 

Pedophilia is not a sexual orientation, it's a sexual attraction. There's a difference I should've known about.

I didn't mean to compare gays to pedophiles in any way. That wasn't my intention, I'm sorry.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Seelentau

[psychonnect_rozen 585]

7 minutes ago, Seelentau said:

Michael Jackson was a kiddy diddler. 

I’m gonna say this as someone who has liked MJ’s music since I was little.

 

Obviously, I’m not gonna agree with everything that people say about him. Many of the accusations seem pretty far fetched and I don’t agree with a lot of it as many of it seems fake.

 

However, I do think that him sleeping with children and the comments he’s made about them are...weird. It is sort of weird to have parents of these kids put a lot of trust into some (at the time) 29 year old. It’s important to know that Micheal had a really close friendships with a lot of children, most notably Macaulay Culkin. 

 

So in short, I don’t believe everything that people say about Micheal as many of it can be false, however I do think that he tends to be too close to children and you can’t deny that it’s a little weird.

 

Refer to this video: 

 

[colorful人生 2777]

21 minutes ago, Seelentau said:

The FBI never found any indication that Michael Jackson was a kiddy diddler. Like, nothing at all. The entire thing is something fabricated by money-hungry people and their lawyers, in unison with the media's thirst for drama.

And Denis is just a dick, or did he do anything comparable to what Watkins did?

Oh, I don't think they're on the same level, of course. Those are just artists/bands I listen to that have had some sort of controversy (or supposed contv.) attached to them (that I thought up on the fly.) Things like this aren't cut-and-dry and are part of a spectrum, so I just separate the individual's actions from the "product". Tried to represent varying degrees of contv.

 

Denis is/was a dick and a scammer.

Ian Watkins is obviously a pedo and is serving jail time for it.

MJ is meant to be a more convoluted example.

 

I just separate from the get-go.

 

*I spot a 🍈 in the thread

Edited July 12, 2019 by colorful人生

[Triangle 345]

1. What artists do you separate their art from their actions?

 

All of them. I buy a piece of art and enjoy that product. Whatever happens behind the curtains is their business. Sure, if it gets attention I will read about that, but I'm not about labeling someone who I legit don't know. I'm just here for the cake, man.

 

2. Is it a legitimate argument?

 

If it helps you sleep at night, sure. It's honestly a matter of taste, just like art appreciation it's yay or nay. 

 

3. Do you think that one persons actions should generalize a whole band? (Ex. Kisaki and Phantasmagoria or any of his past bands)

 

No, because if my friend's into murder that doesn't mean that I am into the same things they are. 

It's like what happened with Seungri from Big Bang. Just because he did what he did, that doesn't mean that the rest of the members are the same and should also be jailed. 

 

People are allowed to have their own opinion and to support art the way that they damn please. 

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by Triangle

[suji 8317]

18 hours ago, psychonnect_rozen said:

1. What artists do you separate their art from their actions?

 

2. Is it a legitimate argument?

 

3. Do you think that one persons actions should generalize a whole band? (Ex. Kisaki and Phantasmagoria or any of his past bands)

Gee, off the top of my head, Sui (David)'s the type who goes hunting for pussy on tanuki (allegedly), but as for more severe actions, Gara would be another one. There's that rumor going around of Kyo and his posse raping groupies back in the day when Daisuke was still alive, and I'm pretty sure Gara was one of them. He's also fucked around with other girls even when he had a girlfriend/was engaged???? As for non-jrock artists, I've listened to plenty of black metal/dungeon synth artists who are self-proclaimed murderers and Neo-Nazis (Burzum, Bacchia Neraida, etc.), but at the end of the day, I don't let that get in the way of listening to their incredible music.

 

Their actions shouldn't affect the band as a whole (although I can't really say much about 90s black metal artists LOL), it's just one person fucking up immensely and it would be really petty to drag the rest of the band into it (ie, Egoist guy who killed his mistress was smart enough to say he's a part-timer instead of bringing up his band), unless they appeared to be condoning it (ie, people who still work with Kisaki and treat him as indies Yoshiki or whatever). As long as they don't glorify their actions thru their music, they should be separate from the actions of one dude.

[YuyoDrift 1540]

35 minutes ago, Seelentau said:

On-topic: I think for me personally, it depends on what happened. I never listened to Lostprophets and I certainly won't begin doing so.

But if I were a long-time fan, I'm not sure if I would stop, either. I would stop the financial and emotional support, but if I really like the music... Then again, there would be the inevitable "uuh do you know what their singer did?!?!" questions which would probably bring me to stop listening to them sooner or later.

It's a hard question, really.

Man, that makes me sad as fuck to read.

 

Are you not gonna listen to Lostprophets because of what you have read/been told, or because you have no interest for your own developed reasons that had no outside influence? Does their music just suck? I'm curious.

 

I am confident that if someone made me feel bad for inquiring about something/someone that is apparently shun by the sheep of society, I wouldn't speak to them for a while, maybe even not hang out with them anymore. It's one thing to tell me of the atrocities that occurred and it's better to not listen/look into it, but to have developed a "I'm afraid of what others will think of me" mindset either on my own or driven into me by years of society saying this is what happens if you do, then shit, I'm glad I came out the way I did and won't threaten someone with some imaginary influence I think I might have over them.

 

The music/art didn't commit the crimes, the person who once was the creator did, and even then there's another way of looking at it. I hope you realize that people change in the course of 10-20 years, and an artist might not be the same person who created the song/work of art people might use for inspiration/relief.

 

That's why there's always the argument of "is it an expression, or a representation" when it comes to the world of art.