Post your "UNPOPULAR" music opinions!

[hiroki 5521]

Simply put, some people value originality and creativity over technical ability, classical knowledge, or a plethora of other things. What is "good" will always boil down to what that person values most and it's always subjective. I don't see what's hard to understand about that? I just wish people stopped acting like their opinions on music were facts and shoving them down other people's throats.

Maybe my point didn't come across as clearly as I would like.

Yes, of course there's the entire cluster of issues with subjectivity/taste/personal preferences. I'm quite the relativist with respect to that (you can read my previous exchange with relentless on "progress" on pg.18), and unlike some others I don't think there's objectively good music. So you can rest assured that I will never try to impose my own opinions on others - I'd rather spend my time focusing on what I enjoy instead of trying to change other people's mind lol.

Anyway I was trying to make 2 other points:

1) To say that x is bad because x sounds the same as everything else is an incredibly lazy way of dismissing something. Firstly it's almost always grossly inaccurate (like what Biopanda has said), so there's that. What irks me more is that people who say that pretend they don't have a kind of sound they like and return to, which they usually have. So that's a strange assertion at best and pure hypocrisy at worst; because as much as genres are exceedingly slippery, people do tend to identify with them. I haven't met anyone who, when asked what they listen to, responds by answering "Oh, I only listen to music that is different". And if being different is not so important after all, why say that x cannot be good music because it is not different? In short: I'm not saying that original music cannot be good (which is a broad-brush sweeping generalization); I'm saying music need not be original to be good (which is an opinion that gives people the autonomy to identify what is good for them).

2) My other beef was that the phrase "pop rock" (and other variants e.g. oshare, neo-vk, what have you) is an empty concept usually mobilized and abused by people who don't listen to - and cannot specify - what this elusive genre is supposed to mean. I'm reminded of how the term "otaku" is used by the larger part of the Japanese society to "label" and derogatorily stereotype certain groups of people as social rejects, when the fact of the matter is these people whom they call otaku are mostly well-adjusted individuals who happen to have an "unfashionable" hobby and who don't identify with the term itself in the first place. It's the same problem with pop rock. Whenever a term like this is stretched from wall to wall to mean everything you want it to mean, then it becomes a useless concept to say anything meaningful with. Except as a shorthand for "all these are stuff I don't like and so why is it that others like them?!".

[doombox 4421]

I'm sorry, I never meant to imply you shoved your opinions down other peoples' throats. I was just kind of tacking my own personal gripe onto the end of that reply.

 

And if you read my reply to Biopanda's comment as well, then you'll know I agree about it being unfortunate in how people don't know how to say they dislike an artist without trying to mislabel them as some kind of insult in the process.  As for your other point, I had nothing else to add and that's why I never ventured further into your original comment.

[Zeus 7997]

Oh this topic has been dead for a month! Well, time to revitalize it.

 

Visual kei fans are paradoxically some of the most open-minded and some of the most close-minded music lovers on the planet.

Now why are we open-minded? Take a look at your average visual kei band.

 

 

 

There's no way in hell that shit would fly in any other country but Japan. One band could do it and it would be seen as a gimmick. But an entire scene revolving around that concept died out in the 80's with glam metal and there's still a bad taste in everyone's mouth about bands that don't prescribe to some pre-approved dress codes. I still live in a country with a split personality; one half wants to accept and embrace diversity. The other thinks that being gay is some unhealthy sin because you happen to like the parts you came equipped with. How many of us on this forum don't talk about visual kei to our real-life friends because they "wouldn't get it"? Are you afraid of being judged for listening to your "tranny metal"? How many of us are here because this is the only place on the internet where we can talk with other people that do "get it"? The fact that we're able to look past the visuals enough to give the music a try says a lot. There are a lot of fans of Japanese music who look down on visual kei because they think all the fans are horny teenage girls and all the music sucks.  We gave it a shot and all discovered something to love here, and that's why you're reading this post, right?

This is where the paradox comes in. Visual kei fans can be the most irritating, closed-minded individuals you will find on the Internet. We rival black metal fans in how obnoxious we are in claiming what is and isn't visual kei, and there's no consensus on what "it" actually is. What's worse is that we have some preconceived definition of what "real visual kei" ought to be. If you don't look a certain way or if you don't play "the right kind of music", it's much harder to keep anyone's attention. You could play the exact same music as a visual kei band and get no attention just because of that. When a session or band member leaves the visual kei scene to go play in another band very few fans will actually follow them to see where they end up - simply because they aren't in a visual band anymore. Bands that straddle the line between visual kei and something else get universally ignored no matter how amazing their music is.

Most notably, we've given off the impression that a band can pull a NOCTURNAL BLOODLUST and do nothing but add visual kei hooks and ugly costumes and they'll get tons of fans simply because they have visual kei hooks and ugly costumes. What the fuck guys? I thought we were supposed to be open-minded and about the music.

But of course, it was never about the music. It's about the looks. It's always been about the looks long before most of us got here and it will be long after we leave. If you're the kind of person who says that you listen to all sorts of visual kei and you go on to name 30 of the same band, 28 of which are recently started indies bands please be honest with yourself. You like the way the bands look and that's why you listen to visual kei, and that's fine. Just don't lie to yourself and say it's about the music when the bands you listen to range from average to absolute garbage. I honestly feel like if I hadn't thrown my administrator weight around earlier this year and exposed I.T.G for the lazy, cheap sacks of shit that they are someone on this forum would be hyping them all crazy.

Oddly enough, the reasons why we don't give chances to fringe visual kei is the same thing other people to do us if we try to expose them to visual kei. How open-minded can we actually be about visual kei if we ourselves don't give all of it a chance?

Take this not as a rant from someone who thinks he's got better musical taste than you. Take it from someone who was where you were quite some time ago (if said rant applies to you), who has some regrets about his visual kei phase, and wished he looked beyond the borders of visual kei to find other types of music sooner. There is some irrational fear in the back of many fans minds where they think if they start listening to other types of music that they will be "less" of a visual kei fan. I was one of those people once. That's false. None of us here believe that. Monochrome Heaven won't blow up because you decided to listen to something else. Visual kei isn't going anywhere either and you'll discover that all types of music can coexist peacefully on your MP3 player. So if you have some sort of irrational fear about trying out something new, the only person that's stopping you is you.

After all, the worst thing that could happen is that you discover you don't like something and that visual kei music is the only type of music you enjoy. But I can assure you, with all the blatant stealing and "inspiration" vk bands themselves find outside of visual kei, there's something out there that you will like. It might not even be metalcore.

[DogManX 179]

Blends in well with the former discussion. Reminds me also of those VK fans who tried to justify their fandom by saying "those western rock bands all sound the same anyway".

[PsychoΔelica 648]

To be honest I often feel like the Visual Kei scene is like one big dog show. With one band trying to be more peacocky than the other you shouldn't be surprised to see so much snobbism among visual kei fans. It's a shame though when a good band is underappreciated because it's not 'visual' enough, but then it doesn't automatically mean that a famous band is a good band. With a few exceptions, somehow I always find the gems among the less known ones.

[beni 2149]

I feel rather shallow for saying this but most of the time I'll check out a band because of the way they present themselves. That's how I got into Visual Kei. The attire and makeup as a whole interested me greatly but obviously, I continue to listen to the genres and scene because of the music. I like to think we're all into other/various areas of music because, damn, do we miss out on so many different and unique musicians if we're just focused on one music area in particular. I'm not saying those who have one particular taste in music are wrong, it's just discovering and enjoying so many different things you might enjoy, and maybe even more so than your current library listening. I think those underappreciated bands is the same with those indie VK bands you may or may not have heard about. It's all the same, and that is, indeed, unfortunate. And I think it's the same with all music. If you're good looking/presented attractively, then of course you'll get in and have more of a chance just because the majority of us look at that at first. And I mean no offense to anyone here, I'm just thinking about modern artists these days too, how often they're complimented for their appearance over the actual music itself. It's nice to compliment, obviously, but ignoring the main factor, the music, is just.. missing the point. I'll put my hand up and admit I'm guilty of what I've already said. I mean, I didn't even know about NB until they turned VK. xD I can safely say I don't 'rival' other musicians with my favourites though. I can just fangirl... hard. Sometimes. Yes, I'm really lame. Please, move on. It's just unfortunate visuals is the most important factor to some. You're missing out! But, since as we grow older, everything changes, including our music tastes, it'd go further and evolve maybe into some of this we're talking about, outside the VK scene.

*celebrates thread revival*

[relentless 254]

Blends in well with the former discussion. Reminds me also of those VK fans who tried to justify their fandom by saying "those western rock bands all sound the same anyway".

 

Which I find funny, because when you boil the music down to its parts, VK is Western influenced employing western harmony: there is literally nothing different about Popular Japanese music that distinguishes itself from the rest of the world other than language spoken -- it's just more music from a different part of the world that people enjoy.

 

This ties into Zeus' excellent post which I've mentioned in the past: VK is largely based on image, and as pointed out by Zeus, there is a scene involved with the music and the appreciation of it as well. People derive value from their musical interests in this regard, and it can cause those that are less open-minded to close off all other forms and genres, stating ignorantly: "all Western music sounds the same". This happens nearly everywhere though with people like this. You will find fans of Metal only listen to Metal, fans of Classical that only listen to Classical, fans of Pop that only listen to Pop, etc. The most a community can do, and what MH has done a great job at doing, is bringing awareness to other bands in Japanese music, even around the world. That's the best that can be done, providing awareness and understanding to musical genres and giving it a platform where people can go to appreciate it.

 

In a way, I don't see it as a problem that some are close-minded in VK music or elsewhere, it just takes education to point out that there is more music out there than what was made in the last 5 years. Take a look at the first music you ever started listening to. The first band / artist / composer whose music you purchased and listened to the most. Take a look at that time (admittedly for me, it was "Classic Rock") and reflect on just how much your musical taste has grown since then. There's no reason why that can't continue.

[doombox 4421]

And I think it's the same with all music. If you're good looking/presented attractively, then of course you'll get in and have more of a chance just because the majority of us look at that at first. And I mean no offense to anyone here, I'm just thinking about modern artists these days too, how often they're complimented for their appearance over the actual music itself. It's nice to compliment, obviously, but ignoring the main factor, the music, is just.. missing the point. I'll put my hand up and admit I'm guilty of what I've already said.

Looks matter in any manner of music that is sold by the standard music industry model. They're counting on you to pick up that CD because the boys/girls looked hot/cool in the poster or the music video, or when they opened up for that more popular band you went to see in concert. Some genres rely more heavily on those images than others, but it's still there and that's why I've never felt shame for certain bands I got into for the looks or the crazy personalities of the members. Granted, the music should be what ultimately makes people decide to stay or not. But most people aren't going to pick up that CD based on nothing at all. And basic laws of attraction are the simplest to use against the consumer so the industry goes with what works. 

 

I feel kinda bad because there are certain musicians I don't particularly care for their music but I do follow them on social media or blog their pictures because I'm attracted to them or like their fashion sense. But I don't try to hide that under the guise of being a fan of their band. Like Sho Asakawa from Plasticzooms. I don't really like their music all that much, but I like Sho. I like his pictures and his asthetic, and he seems like a genuinely nice person. I just think the difference here is some people just need to admit to themselves its okay if you don't like the music. You can still appreciate the people who make it without shame. At least, I do. :/

[hiroki 5521]

The problem is that most discussions centered on visual kei (especially by non-vk fans, or anti-vk ppl) are often slathered with frightening helpings of overgeneralization, made worse by a common stereotype of vk fans that's, let's just say, not too charitable. People need to realize that not all visual kei fans are (or come anywhere near to) immature, rabid fangirls who creepily stalk twitter/ameblo and hyperventilate at their bandomen's zettai ryoiki 24/7. Oh yes, of course, there are those (and btw I don't believe there's anything wrong with that, but that's going off-topic). And there are also vk fans who refuse for whatever reason to listen to anything else but vk. So what? This "snobbishness" isn't even something peculiar to vk - just take a look at people who exclusively listen to classical music, or trance, or hip-hop, or whatever - and in my view, not necessarily something "bad".

The thing is, contrary to common presuppositions, some of these people who swear by vk have actually explored other genres, found that they didn't like them, and returned to the "sanctuary" of vk music where they feel most at ease. There's a very common tendency to feel that simply because I found a mind-blowingly good band, people are "missing out" on this gem because they don't know about it (and if they do know, then they're not being critical!). I used to feel the same way sometimes, but I've come to accept that isn't the case at all. For every 1 person who's interested I can easily find 100 others who quite honestly don't give a shit. In my case I've also occasionally checked out purported "albums of the century" (hurhur) and didn't know wtf I was listening to. But this is just as well; if there were any place for aggressive musical evangelism, all of us would be listening to AKB48 and Arashi and nothing else.

A final point. Let's face it: the music industry today is staggeringly huge and there are way too many bands/artists for anyone to listen to. For most people who are neither NEETs nor retirees, their "exploratory" phase must stop (or at least slow down) at some point. To put it crudely some sacrifice has to be made between breadth and depth of music: because no one has infinite time to sit down and listen to music leisurely, people who have less diverse tastes can channel their time to further exploring what they really like. It's not so much that vk music is irreconcilable with other genres of music; it's the practical constraint of time where spending a month to explore other genres means they will have 1 less month to explore vk bands they like. Not everyone is willing to make this sacrifice. As an anecdotal aside, I'm just a rather casual listener of classical music but I have a good friend who listens to almost nothing but Chopin since he was 14 and has developed an unbelievable familiarity with almost every single Chopin specialist from the 19th through the 21st century (he even knows who are the Nocturnes specialists, Mazurka specialists, etc. within the Chopin repertoire). I hardly think it would make any sense for me to inform him that he has wasted his time and suggest that he'd have been better off if he had traded 50% of this expertise to explore rap or J-indies instead. And if I wouldn't say that, why would it be easier to say the exact same thing to the obsessive vk fan, if not for the derogatory (and often incorrect) stereotypes usually associated with vk fans I've mentioned at the start of the post..?

[Sakura Seven 593]

The problem is that most discussions centered on visual kei (especially by non-vk fans, or anti-vk ppl) are often slathered with frightening helpings of overgeneralization, made worse by a common stereotype of vk fans that's, let just say, not too charitable. People need to realize that not all visual kei fans are (or come anywhere near to) immature, rabid fangirls who creepily stalk twitter/ameblo and hyperventilate at their bandomen's zettai ryoiki 24/7. Oh yes, of course, there are those (and btw I don't believe there's anything wrong with that, but that's going off-topic). And there are also vk fans who refuse for whatever reason to listen to anything else but vk. So what? This "snobbishness" isn't even something peculiar to vk - just take a look at people who exclusively listen to classical music, or trance, or hip-hop, or whatever - and in my view, not necessarily something "bad".

The thing is, contrary to common presuppositions, some of these people who swear by vk have actually explored other genres, found that they didn't like them, and returned to the "sanctuary" of vk music where they feel most at ease. There's a very common tendency to feel that simply because I found a mind-blowingly good band, people are "missing out" on this gem because they don't know about it (and if they do know, then they're not being critical!). I used to feel the same way sometimes, but I've come to accept that isn't the case at all. For every 1 person who's interested I can easily find 100 others who quite honestly don't give a shit. In my case I've also occasionally checked out purported "albums of the century" (hurhur) and didn't know wtf I was listening to. But this is just as well; if there were any place for aggressive musical evangelism, all of us would be listening to AKB48 and Arashi and nothing else.

A final point. Let's face it: the music industry today is staggeringly huge and there are way too many bands/artists for anyone to listen to. For most people who are neither NEETs nor retirees, their "exploratory" phase must stop (or at least slow down) at some point. To put it crudely some sacrifice has to be made between breadth and depth of music: because no one has infinite time to sit down and listen to music leisurely, people who have less diverse tastes can channel their time to further exploring what they really like. It's not so much that vk music is irreconcilable with other genres of music; it's the practical constraint of time where spending a month to explore other genres means they will have 1 less month to explore vk bands they like. Not everyone is willing to make this sacrifice. As an anecdotal aside, I'm just a rather casual listener of classical music but I have a good friend who listens to almost nothing but Chopin since he was 14 and has developed an unbelievable familiarity with almost every single Chopin specialist from the 19th through the 21st century (he even knows who are the Nocturnes specialists, Mazurka specialists, etc. within the Chopin repertoire). I hardly think it would make any sense for me to inform him that he has wasted his time and suggest that he'd have been better off if he had traded 50% of this expertise to explore rap or J-indies instead. And if I wouldn't say that, why would it be easier to say the exact same thing to the obsessive vk fan, if not for the derogatory (and often incorrect) stereotypes usually associated with vk fans I've mentioned at the start of the post..?

 

This truth.

[JukaForever 758]

The problem is that most discussions centered on visual kei (especially by non-vk fans, or anti-vk ppl) are often slathered with frightening helpings of overgeneralization, made worse by a common stereotype of vk fans that's, let's just say, not too charitable. People need to realize that not all visual kei fans are (or come anywhere near to) immature, rabid fangirls who creepily stalk twitter/ameblo and hyperventilate at their bandomen's zettai ryoiki 24/7. Oh yes, of course, there are those (and btw I don't believe there's anything wrong with that, but that's going off-topic). And there are also vk fans who refuse for whatever reason to listen to anything else but vk. So what? This "snobbishness" isn't even something peculiar to vk - just take a look at people who exclusively listen to classical music, or trance, or hip-hop, or whatever - and in my view, not necessarily something "bad".

The thing is, contrary to common presuppositions, some of these people who swear by vk have actually explored other genres, found that they didn't like them, and returned to the "sanctuary" of vk music where they feel most at ease. There's a very common tendency to feel that simply because I found a mind-blowingly good band, people are "missing out" on this gem because they don't know about it (and if they do know, then they're not being critical!). I used to feel the same way sometimes, but I've come to accept that isn't the case at all. For every 1 person who's interested I can easily find 100 others who quite honestly don't give a shit. In my case I've also occasionally checked out purported "albums of the century" (hurhur) and didn't know wtf I was listening to. But this is just as well; if there were any place for aggressive musical evangelism, all of us would be listening to AKB48 and Arashi and nothing else.

A final point. Let's face it: the music industry today is staggeringly huge and there are way too many bands/artists for anyone to listen to. For most people who are neither NEETs nor retirees, their "exploratory" phase must stop (or at least slow down) at some point. To put it crudely some sacrifice has to be made between breadth and depth of music: because no one has infinite time to sit down and listen to music leisurely, people who have less diverse tastes can channel their time to further exploring what they really like. It's not so much that vk music is irreconcilable with other genres of music; it's the practical constraint of time where spending a month to explore other genres means they will have 1 less month to explore vk bands they like. Not everyone is willing to make this sacrifice. As an anecdotal aside, I'm just a rather casual listener of classical music but I have a good friend who listens to almost nothing but Chopin since he was 14 and has developed an unbelievable familiarity with almost every single Chopin specialist from the 19th through the 21st century (he even knows who are the Nocturnes specialists, Mazurka specialists, etc. within the Chopin repertoire). I hardly think it would make any sense for me to inform him that he has wasted his time and suggest that he'd have been better off if he had traded 50% of this expertise to explore rap or J-indies instead. And if I wouldn't say that, why would it be easier to say the exact same thing to the obsessive vk fan, if not for the derogatory (and often incorrect) stereotypes usually associated with vk fans I've mentioned at the start of the post..?

It is unfortunate this is posted as an unpopular view, it is quite logical

[hiroki 5521]

It is unfortunate this is posted as an unpopular view, it is quite logical

 

i didn't quote but i was actually responding to the series of posts above (starting with Zess'). i have no idea how popular/unpopular my view is, although i suspect it's primarily a matter of where someone stands w.r.t. visual kei

[Bear 1817]

And there are also vk fans who refuse for whatever reason to listen to anything else but vk. So what? This "snobbishness" isn't even something peculiar to vk - just take a look at people who exclusively listen to classical music, or trance, or hip-hop, or whatever - and in my view, not necessarily something "bad".

 

There's nothing wrong with it, but there's a HUGE difference between only being into hip hop/metal/punk/classical music/whatever and only VK as I see and have experienced it: people who listen to VK tends to be into a SHITLOAD of genres (nu metal, metalcore, progressive metal, rock, pop, electronica, goth, punk), so it obviously have nothing to do with being close-minded as far as the music goes, because they're usualy very open-minded and tend to enjoy plenty of genres. So this quite obviously have nothing to do with the music itself, but something else. The image? Or maybe they feel unique listening to VK? I wouldn't know. If they, like the hip hop, classical music or metal fan only are only into one genre it would've been something else, but they're not. They're simply not into just one genre, they're into a scene and enjoy plenty of different genres, unlike the one that exclusively listens to hip hop, which is one genre.

 

 

 

As far as image goes, it's quite important to look good/cool/whatever to gain attention to themself and make people check you out, and this goes for all genres. I check out band because of their image, and I check out albums because of their cover art. But I don't judge the music itself because of either things, that's when it gets stupid IMO, when someone "choose" to continue listen to band A because they look better, despite liking the music of band B way better.

[hiroki 5521]

There's nothing wrong with it, but there's a HUGE difference between only being into hip hop/metal/punk/classical music/whatever and only VK as I see and have experienced it: people who listen to VK tends to be into a SHITLOAD of genres (nu metal, metalcore, progressive metal, rock, pop, electronica, goth, punk), so it obviously have nothing to do with being close-minded as far as the music goes, because they're usualy very open-minded and tend to enjoy plenty of genres. So this quite obviously have nothing to do with the music itself, but something else. The image? Or maybe they feel unique listening to VK? I wouldn't know. If they, like the hip hop, classical music or metal fan only are only into one genre it would've been something else, but they're not. They're simply not into just one genre, they're into a scene and enjoy plenty of different genres, unlike the one that exclusively listens to hip hop, which is one genre.

That is precisely it. Some people want something in excess of the music itself, and continue to seek that something out. The best evidence: visual kei exists. The very fact that these people are open to so many genres suggests that they aren't "genre purists" (for want of a better phrase). That isn't to say that quality of music doesn't matter; there's just more than one factor at play for this group of ppl.

[Zeus 7997]

A final point. Let's face it: the music industry today is staggeringly huge and there are way too many bands/artists for anyone to listen to. For most people who are neither NEETs nor retirees, their "exploratory" phase must stop (or at least slow down) at some point. To put it crudely some sacrifice has to be made between breadth and depth of music: because no one has infinite time to sit down and listen to music leisurely, people who have less diverse tastes can channel their time to further exploring what they really like. It's not so much that vk music is irreconcilable with other genres of music; it's the practical constraint of time where spending a month to explore other genres means they will have 1 less month to explore vk bands they like. Not everyone is willing to make this sacrifice. As an anecdotal aside, I'm just a rather casual listener of classical music but I have a good friend who listens to almost nothing but Chopin since he was 14 and has developed an unbelievable familiarity with almost every single Chopin specialist from the 19th through the 21st century (he even knows who are the Nocturnes specialists, Mazurka specialists, etc. within the Chopin repertoire). I hardly think it would make any sense for me to inform him that he has wasted his time and suggest that he'd have been better off if he had traded 50% of this expertise to explore rap or J-indies instead. And if I wouldn't say that, why would it be easier to say the exact same thing to the obsessive vk fan, if not for the derogatory (and often incorrect) stereotypes usually associated with vk fans I've mentioned at the start of the post..?

See, this is where you lose me. At no point should someone have to make a tradeoff between depth and breadth of musical inclinations. As long as you continue to like music, they go hand in hand. The more music that you discover, the more you know where your tastes lie, what you like and what you don't. This is important.

I'll use @paradoxal as an example. para is the biggest visual kei indie head I'm familiar with on this forum. She follows all of the new bands and knows who is trending and who isn't, and is extremely comfortable with listening to a fraction of all the music visual kei has to offer. Yet she found something to love in Charisma.com, which is an artist she would have never exposed herself to on her own. She only realized she enjoyed their music when she took a leap of faith and decided to try something new, even if it came with the risk of not enjoying it. And in turn, I would have never discovered Charisma.com if CAT5 didn't put us all on one day. Sitting in the chat box for a day is one of the most mind blowing things you can do on MH. Everybody in the chat is always recommending music to everyone else and all of our tastes rub shoulders. As a matter of fact, most of the bands that I have in my library now are bands that have been recommended to me by other people from the chat. I don't actually seek out any new music, but my musical collection grows in new and unexpected ways due to people like @CAT5, @Champ213, @sai, @Jigsaw9, , @Bear, @leafwork, @Peace Heavy mk II, and @paradoxal, among other people. Right now I'm downloading something @sai recommended to me yesterday for no other reason than she thought I would like it. As long as someone is willing to try new things, their music collection will only grow.

I would even wager that most of us showed up here because someone else put us on to visual kei first - whether that be a mysterious YouTube uploader or a friend that really, really likes the GazettE - and we all decided to try something new. But a lot of fans don't even try new things within the confines of just visual kei. They're fine with being familiar only with the new band of the week - and I would know because I was there once too. From LIPHLICH to DISH, from Wagakki-Band to Kagrra, from Hollowgram to the god and death stars, there are plenty of different types of visual kei bands that all have different aesthetics and styles and approach music differently, yet there's as much of a schism between -core visual kei bands and other visual kei bands as there is between visual kei and not visual kei music. You can chalk it up to "musical differences" but I think there's more at play.

And at the end of the day, we all showed up here because we decided to try something new, so when does that change and why? It's the elephant in the room nobody wants to address because it requires taking a good, hard look at our own biases.

[hiroki 5521]

See, this is where you lose me. At no point should someone have to make a tradeoff between depth and breadth of musical inclinations. As long as you continue to like music, they go hand in hand. The more music that you discover, the more you know where your tastes lie, what you like and what you don't. This is important.

All I'm saying is that for people who cannot sit down and peruse music at their own leisure, there is definitely some tradeoff to be made between (i) (re)listening to stuff one likes, (ii) finding more bands that one is likely to like, (iii) taking a "leap of faith" - as you'd say - to try and expand one's musical horizons. Spending all your time on (iii) will mean sacrificing time that you'd otherwise use for (i) and (ii). That's a very real tradeoff anyone who loves music has to contend with. In an ideal world you would be right. If I weren't clearing almost 40 credits per semester and instead had unlimited time, I swear that I won't only be checking out every single release that people post here, I'd even go down to the local CD rental shop and go through everything there shelf by shelf.

Yes, there are definitely those people who keep away from non-vk stuff due to phobia(?) and their own resistance towards non-vk stuff, but I think for most people it's more practical than that. Chances are they have tried something, didn't like it, and returned to their favorite music, be it vk or something else. That's something I find perfectly rational.

I understand where you're coming from. There's always the excitement that comes with finding something outside of my comfort zone that I would never imagined I'd like had I not tried. (As a concrete example, there was once I casually downloaded

which Keiyuu generously shared. I absolutely loved the song and it's now in my rotation, although anyone who knows my taste will know it doesn't even come close to the part of vk I usually dabble in). But unfortunately there's always gonna be that proverbial elephant in the room because no one can listen to all the music that exists, and I think people should decide for themselves how they want to apportion their time between (i), (ii) and (iii).

[Zeus 7997]

That's why you have friends. All of the people I listed above have drastically different music tastes. @CAT5 is the indie king. @sai likes music with catchy hooks and great melodies. @paradoxal likes visual kei. @leafwork is all over the map and listens to a lot of different stuff. @Bear and @Disposable like the less explored areas of metal. @Linh-san is the multifaceted moderator that listens to visual kei and everything else in almost equal amounts and is knowledgeable about a lot of stuff. I have a great resource of friends that I can approach and ask for recommendations whenever I'm in the mood for something new. Because I have them, I don't need to do much exploring myself. I trust those guys to wade through all the crap and let me know what I need to become familiar with and what I need to avoid. I probably do the same for a lot of other people.

 

For me, that combines (ii) and (iii). So if you find that you don't have enough time to listen to what you like and find new things at the same time, drop by the chat when anybody is in there and ask for recommendations. Anyone in there would be more than willing to help you out.

As a matter of fact, yesterday I was in the shoutbox with @Sakura Seven and and I got Sakura's take on DaizyStripper despite never being familiar with them. People like that are invaluable in filling in the holes I'm going to have no matter how many artists I listen to. The goal is not to listen to everything but to be familiar with many things.

This isn't an alien concept. People new to visual kei (or returning to the scene) know that there's an adjustment period in getting familiar with who's who in the scene and they go out and make friends who put them on to new things. So I guess what I'm getting at is....everyone needs to make more friends?

[relentless 254]

All I'm saying is that for people who cannot sit down and peruse music at their own leisure, there is definitely some tradeoff to be made between (i) (re)listening to stuff one likes, (ii) finding more bands that one is likely to like, (iii) taking a "leap of faith" - as you'd say - to try and expand one's musical horizons. Spending all your time on (iii) will mean sacrificing time that you'd otherwise use for (i) and (ii). That's a very real tradeoff anyone who loves music has to contend with...

Yes, there are definitely those people who keep away from non-vk stuff due to phobia(?) and their own resistance towards non-vk stuff, but I think for most people it's more practical than that. Chances are they have tried something, didn't like it, and returned to their favorite music, be it vk or something else. That's something I find perfectly rational.

 

 

 

I know what you mean even if I don't look at it quite like you do. Maybe there are some people who genuinely only listen to what they haven't heard before. Maybe there are some who entirely spend their time on "taking a leap of faith" to expand one's taste in music; but I don't see that as widespread nor indicative of the process of discovering new music being time consuming. The availability of music in this Internet age is unprecedented. Having thousands upon thousands of artists at our disposal by a mere search on YouTube allows us to take in far more music in a much quicker format than before. If someone wants to listen to a piece / song by an artist they like, it can be done by a quick search. If someone wants to discover new music, it can be done with a quick search. I wouldn't necessarily assume that expanding one's taste in music is so time consuming when it can just as easily be supplemented with current interests in music.

 

Whatever form/genre of music you're discovering, thankfully the album experience is for the most part quick. It doesn't take much time to look up selections from an album and listening to it, or even listening to the album in full. Even with my love of Classical, I still find time to listen to albums by David Bowie I haven't heard amongst the 2+hour long Oratorios by Händel I've been binging on lately. I feel as though there is a balance that can be made between listening to music you like and discovering new music due to the nature of the Internet, music's increased availability, and the general lack of time it takes to do so. And even in the event that all you listen to in one day is new music you may never listen to again, there's always tomorrow to listen to the music you love.

 

So in a way, I don't entirely feel like such a thing is a "very real tradeoff" when no one is necessarily advocating only listening to new music and making leaps of faith to see if you'll like said music. At least personally, I find it to be far more integrated even when there are times when I need to set aside over 3 hours to listen to ONE work, and in the event I can't get to an album on a given day, it will always be there.

[evilcoconut 109]

I've personally never been a "vk-onrii" fan, though I definitely had a phase where it was most of what I listened to.  I also don't care about looks in music 90% of the time, as in, looks rarely rarely motivate me to try a band or artist.  I used to have a less-visual VK preference, but now I really don't care what they look like period.

 

I'm also one of the fans categorized above who is constantly looking for new music and rarely bingeing on or spending more time with the bands I would say that I really like.  I can't even tell anyone my favorite band anymore because I literally don't have one.  Or perhaps I just have too many lol. Idek.  Sometimes I listen to music nearly all day and sometimes I listen for only a few hours in a day.  There's always time for some music somewhere.

[Tetora 625]

Reading a couple of posts here and connected it to what I see around the net, and with individuals in day-to-day life. Just wrote it out real fast and don`t have time to edit so see bold and color for CLIFFS.

 

-----

 

What I don`t agree with most is that there is anything inherently wrong with sticking to one thing, keeping things simple, or just being satisfied with what you have.

 

I see more and more, especially on the internet, of how every argument or view is attached to some sort of righteousness or made-up moral value. I see how one person attempts to attach their character or view to justice, or some sort of superiority, and either directly or indirectly writing anyone with a different view or lifestyle off as:

 

Small-Minded

Prejudice

Uninformed

A Senseless Fan

Immature

Or Downright Stupid

 

One can openly declare that they are open-minded, or dismiss others as small-minded, not noticing the hypocrisy of the statement, and the blatant abandon of any further attempts at understanding others or their point of view. The self-induced illusion of intellectual superiority makes no point of ever addressing how one can possibly know whether they are open-minded, or just of a liberal point of view that is as close-minded as a conservative person who lives within boundaries like all the rest of us.

 

We attach this to some sort of ideal that music is, at it`s higher forms, some sort of objectively precious, important creation that we are to revere, and all value in the same way.

 

If a bunch of music fans from all walks of life were to sit down and map out what they found to be important for either good music, or what they like, they might have some of the following:

 

Technical Skill

Deep Philosophical Meaning

Deep Emotional Meaning

Something That Rocks

Something Relaxing

Something That Is Fun

Something Real

Something That Provides An Escape

Something You Can Dance To

Something You Can Groove To

Something Nice to Put On In The Background

 

Any of these can be dependant, independant, or inter-dependant, and there are droves of people that would declare their preference as `Real Music`, `Good Music`and so forth...

 

And obviously as we know that`s one major reason why trying to transpose your value of music onto others and have expectations, or criticize anything anyone else listens to is utterly pointless.

 

Each of these different things can provide the same amount of entertainment, enjoyment, or value to an individual, depending on what they prefer.

 

In the same way some people have found what they like, enjoy listening to it, and currently do not need to look much further than the area they are currently deriving pleasure from. For some people looking into new areas of music is `broadening their horizons`, for others, it`s simply getting away from the point and potentially wasting time. In a week or two many people who do choose to wander through different genres and what-not will invariably come running back to whatever it is they are in love with in their main musical arena. I for example, despite having so many albums, trying out so many different areas, and so forth, from listening, to studying and playing... Can not go very long before I come running back for the feeling that only a band can give me, a rock band to be specific, one from more modern times, that has the sound and feeling that I relate to, and (as far as) I know no other area of music can currently give me.

 

Wandering to other areas of music outside of VK is a distraction, sometimes a palette cleanse, sometimes just the equivalent of a different route home to see what`s there... And I would be perfectly fine without ever trying anything outside of Visual Kei at the moment.

 

If someone genuinely enjoys what they are doing, no matter how narrow it is, why try to impose upon them? Chances are, if they want to try something else, they can take the initiative themselves, either by looking, or asking others. I expect any semi-grown individual to be able to make their own decisions, and even if they make decisions that I don`t agree with, I`m not going to criticize, assume some pseudo-superiority, try to inflate my ego or anything like that.

 

Are they enjoying what they are listening to?

Yes?

 

Okay, choices:

- Carry on and let them be.

- Find some arbitrary reason to scold them, either directly or indirectly, tell them they are small-minded, let them know how much more worldly you are for sitting around downloading all sorts of other music while only being as, or less passionate about what you are listening to as they are, etc...

 

No?

 

Choices:

- Carry on and let them figure it out for themselves.

- Recommend them some music and see if they like it.

- Force your opinions, made-up solutions and tastes upon them for as long as you can until they stop coming around and you wonder why they seem to resent you.

 

-----

 

I am sure we all know of people that unknowingly choose those ridiculous options, and simply can`t except that someone is different than them, so they rationalize everything under a statement such as: They don`t like what I like, or do what I do despite my way being superior, therefore they are stupid and small-minded.

 

It`s hard to accept that someone can simply like something different, or be so specific, or not be open to all of the wonderful things that you are enjoying.

 

Try telling a tribesman in South America who lives in a mud-hut that he shoudl expand his horizons.

Or telling an old man that has done nothing other than catch fish in his hometown his whole life and raise a family that he `NEEDS to travel Europe`.

Maybe go tell a Monk that he should really go out there, meet some women and enjoy himself.

 

Chances are these `narrow` minds are more content than any of the stressed out, low-self-esteem, inescapably materialistic minds that roam the cities and surf the internet today. Many people don`t even need music to be content, guess they are too small-minded and would really be happier exploring Neo-Classical Jazz right now...

 

So not even taking time constraints or anything like that in mind, which can seem to come off as excuses tbh, I don`t see anything wrong with not being musically adventurous, or even down-right listening to the same stuff all day everyday if it satisfies you. Call me crazy.

 

Other things:

 

In the name of righteousness again, we always seem to be putting down visuals and declaring for our own sake that The Music is What is Most Important.

 

Really?

Why?

 

Is the music so much deeper and meaningful, and of so much more value that we must dismiss the looks in Visual Kei or other genres, and proclaim to not care about them?

 

So there`s no value, message or feeling given by the look of the band? We can`t connect with the band through what they express visually, we can`t like them for their looks, we have to be devout to the music first of all, and put down others who seem to over-value the aesthetics?

 

Seems like a load of cow dung to me, and that people are free to like whatever they like about the experience, or band. While we are on the subject we could be dismissing all fans who aren`t `in it for the lyrics, because the lyrics are the heart of the song and convey the message best and blah blah blah` but many fans conveniently don`t have the luxury of enforcing that requirement to being an intelligent VK fan.

 

Dismissing Popular Bands In `Covert` Ways:

 

Flavour of the Month

Bishies for Fan-girls

Not VK anymore because of some made-up reason.

 

And so forth...

 

Nothing wrong with liking whatever is popular, as long as the person genuinely enjoys it. Even if for some reason they only enjoy it for its popularity and community. They could still be enjoying it just as much as someone listening to Mozart, Dir en grey, The Beatles or whatever music that ascended from the heavens to bless the peasants and elitists alike as they stroke themselves to whatever brilliance they are currently experiencing through their overpriced headphones.

 

 

All value for music, and whatever else you want to pile into the category of Art, is purely up to those experiencing it, and there is nothing wrong, and nothing inferior with being a Mejibray fangirl, someone who only listens to Visual Kei, someone who only listens to one band, or someone that puts high value on a bands looks.

 

Does any action on behalf of the criticized listener really hurt or affect anyone? Is there really an issue here that we need to stick our noses into, or will that just put people off and separate communities already under many other strains due to differing viewpoints.

 

If anyone feels the need to criticize anyone mentioned above, berate them, or act like their superior, chances are that the `small-minded` person you are fed up with is better off than you.

[Lestat 2167]

The enlargement of your musical taste might or might not result in changes in your personal life. It may be a featherbrained deduction of future events that have been decided by what or what you do not listen to, but people around me (and including myself) have experienced drastic transformations when we decided to 'broaden our horizons'. Zeus says 'that's why you have friends' and 'everyone needs to make more friends', regarding the recommendation process, but this might actually cause for decay in your other relationships. How childish and trivial it might still sound; there are still those out there who do judge you on what you listen to. There will be those who drop you solely based on what enters your ears and what you decide to close them for. And what about people who do not have a prime capability of interacting with others? How are you to enter a new scene if you alone do rely on recommendations from others? It is not possible and you do remain as you are, because it feels safe and comfortable and you needn't necessarily step into a refreshing zone.

 

It is most certainly not wrong to experience new music, but it is certainly not a crime when the song remains the same either — and this is what people need to realize more often. There is little attention for those who do not advance or develop new interests and those are often left astray or behind. Not only in music, but in society as a whole.

 

I come from a grouped field of interest that included mostly eighties glam metal and thrash metal that went as underground as one could possibly imagine. These two clash like no other for no particular reason and it is where I almost was forced to decide between environments as even the people did not get along somehow. You see that expanding my taste here did not result in anything in reference to my social life, it did just expand my taste. It is a personal attachment to certain genres and that is where it often ends, and that is not a bad thing at all.

 

Now, it might be more loose with visual kei, as the music often does not actually matter as is often expressed through their image instead. I think with visual kei people need not to necessarily expand their comprehension of different genres as it does bear an immense amount of classifications already. Judging a band by its cover is no longer an option as you cannot visualize what type of music they will play just by looking at the image of them. People try and attempt based on what is pleasing to their eyes more often than actually entering a playlist on say, Last.fm (or any other radio-station that plays Japanese music, if those are in existence). You do not necessarily need to augment on other genres if you feel comfortable in visual kei, as there are plenty bands enough of each. Pop, pop-punk, general rock, heavier rock, metalcore, items closer to an actual thrash metal formation, and the list goes on endlessly. But I think even in this discussion it comes down to the fact that people do analyze others on their view on music.

[relentless 254]

Reading a couple of posts here and connected it to what I see around the net, and with individuals in day-to-day life. Just wrote it out real fast and don`t have time to edit so see bold and color for CLIFFS.

 

-----

Other things:

 

In the name of righteousness again, we always seem to be putting down visuals and declaring for our own sake that The Music is What is Most Important.

 

Really?

Why?

 

 

Because Music isn't a visual medium. When discussing music and appreciating it, you are concerned with the very notes that come off the page with a score or out of the speaker when listening. When deciding for yourself whether a band is any good, you generally make your judgement based on the music. It would be a shame to judge the music of Beethoven based on his famously poor public appearance.

 

 

 

 

Is the music so much deeper and meaningful, and of so much more value that we must dismiss the looks in Visual Kei or other genres, and proclaim to not care about them?

 

So there`s no value, message or feeling given by the look of the band? We can`t connect with the band through what they express visually, we can`t like them for their looks, we have to be devout to the music first of all, and put down others who seem to over-value the aesthetics?

 

 

Again, the appreciation of music comes from its sound, not the looks of the composer, band, or artist; but that does not mean such things can't be appreciated, it's just something that isn't related to the music. Some like to package the image of a band in VK and pair that with the music, others only listen for the music. Both are acceptable, though the distinction must be made that the focus on the look of a band becomes extra-musical and not related to the product a group is making.

 

There's no reason why either of these options can't co-exist; but I will agree with the first part of your post:

 

 

I see more and more, especially on the internet, of how every argument or view is attached to some sort of righteousness or made-up moral value.

 

There is an expectation by some that music HAS to sound a certain way, and that can be a problem when they can be combative; but the end of the day they're just expressing their preference of a certain kind of music in a very vocal way. To work with them and discuss music, or to ignore/block them is completely up to those involved. Personally, I like to engage these kinds of people to determine their preferences so we may find common ground. That's just me though.

 

And even though the laughable superiority complex of some in regards to their music preference is just silly, there is only one example that acts as the exception to this. These people are operating under a preconceived notion of what music is "good" or "bad", "right" or "wrong", which I find to be generally incorrect except in one instance: musical forms throughout history that have set rules as to how to compose a piece a certain way. If those forms are not adhered to, they are OBJECTIVELY incorrect. But this is not something that is found in Popular music today, so it never shows up in conversation.

[evilcoconut 109]

Here's a probably unpopular opinion: I really don't care and would rather not have Japanese artists getting into the American/Westernwtvr scene, or being somehow validated by it. I don't understand why so many J-fans want /need/ this to happen and are constantly blathering about how they could achieve this. Most US releases, as in albums geared towards the US market like the English VAMPS album are so godawful and I'm just like, why.

 

I prefer Japanese music, it's 90% of what I listen to, I don't need it or want it in a music market I don't even like. And I don't need anyone to validate my music tastes either.

[beni 2149]

Here's a probably unpopular opinion: I really don't care and would rather not have Japanese artists getting into the American/Westernwtvr scene, or being somehow validated by it. I don't understand why so many J-fans want /need/ this to happen and are constantly blathering about how they could achieve this. Most US releases, as in albums geared towards the US market like the English VAMPS album are so godawful and I'm just like, why.

 

I prefer Japanese music, it's 90% of what I listen to, I don't need it or want it in a music market I don't even like. And I don't need anyone to validate my music tastes either.

 

You put my main dislike into words. This totally.

 

The Korean singer CL is recently stepping into the American scene and I just have to question, 'why?' You've got a very loyal and happy girl band and many fans. And I really dislike it when a singer/member from a band goes off to do something solo. This might fit into this and this thread as a whole. My dislike on Miss Williams escalated to extreme heights at one point when she began doing solo work while still with the band. I get so upset when they do that like their original band isn't enough and they're not happy. If it's changing the style you want and are worried about, talk to your band and stick together as a team. Seeing as I get way too upset with disbandments, you can guess I'm against this too.

[Bear 1817]

A lot of artist have a lot of art in them that they want to get out. Starting a new band, going solo or whatever is a way of getting that out without interfering with the main band. Because maybe the songs you've written, and are so damn proud of, just doesn't fit into the style your main band is doing. Then releasing it with another band (that may or may not share the same members), or release it solo or whatever. It's just smart. I'd kill Mirai if he released Enoch or Cut Throat as Sigh. Both are great band, but neither are Sigh, and therefor shouldn't be released as Sigh either. Starting new bands to get these out was a dam fine move. And so on and on and on.

 

 

Let's say I play in a melodic death metal band. Would it really be so bad if I decided to get my black metal or heavy metal songs out there alone or with another band? O would it be better if I just wrote a shitload of great songs and left 'em behind without doing nothing with 'em?