Furik 832 Posted September 12, 2015 ^ Right? It's an incredible song and I enjoy every minute of it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pretsy 1343 Posted September 12, 2015 Being new, I'm slowly creeping around the forums and finding myself wanting to comment on a lot of things that no one is discussing anymore. But I wanted to go back a bit and talk about DEG not having any long songs on ARCHE. Most j-rock/VK bands fail at the "epic" song, and DEG hasn't always been successful. Vinushka is great, and I personally love both iterations of Macabre. The Blossoming Beelzebub works for me because it's a slow crawl forward and doesn't repeat a section once is over. That's progressive to me, not taking verses and chorus and repeating them ad nauseum for 9+ minutes. Diabolos peaks with the guitar solo in the first half, peters off after the heavy section, then just falls flat for the rest. A good example of how much better Diabolos would have been if it had been half as long would be Behind a Vacant Image. It condenses Diabolos' song structure into 5 minutes. It works. But yeah, a lot of songs don't need to be these sprawling epics because the songwriting can't meet the needs. Does Reila need to be almost 8 minutes when the song ends on a repeated section that just fades out slowly? Merry's Gekisei? Ugh. Depends on what kind of bands are you exactly talking about - DEG hasn't done good long songs for a while either (VINUSHKA and BEELZEBUB are pure exceptions - while the former basically mustered a few frills they got while touring abroad *cough* and banging Opeth on the way (their Roadrunners VA had one of Kaoru's favs from them btw), BEELZEBUB had this idea of channeling something what they've done before, i.e. Mazohyst), seeing as they currently lack chemistry as a cooperative band and stick to glued clusterfucks instead (this should have been obvious at the moment DSS came out) . Those other bands you mentioned at least have a bit of chemistry showing up (to some extent, at least) - and I see this as rather important factor in terms of songwriting. I don't remember much from ARCHE (awkward experience as a whole), but I can tell you Dirboys are more of a throwback band than a band with desires and common chemistry for newer ventures. The past had a few gems they churned out in terms of "epic department": original MACABRE (the new Macabre is piss-ugly and awful, the real definition of clusterfuck - original at least paid tributes to the vast gamut of influences they dabbled around while recording) Zakuro (best tearjerker from them) The rest is either emulating songs above way too much or just taking too much out of their biases' books, see: Akuro no Oka And to compare (other acts): Very emotion/angst-driven dirge, you can feel all the frustration they've put into this song Luna Sea always had a good taste and touch in terms of colliding dark ambience with proggy, but minimalist epics a la this for instance Merry's Gekisei on the other hand managed to stay loyal to their own trademark "retro-Tarantinoan" style while condensing each auditory theme from Under-World into one A showcase of an exception where being ultra-cheesy =/= bad - Kamijo's love for epic musical-like numbers was a nice add to Versailles' genre, which is normally ridden with your everyday dick metal hicks TL;DR - Dir needs to focus on themes or delivering specific emotions instead of attempting to impress us with god-knows-what kind of throwbacks throughout over-5 min mayhem. Rinkaku was the best song they have done for a long time, but let's face it: the song left a lot to be desired in terms of being coherent Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Saishu 1589 Posted September 12, 2015 I have a hard time getting thru Gekisei because of the production. Merry went thru this phase of tinny, treble-y recordings for several albums until (I think) Beautiful Freaks. It ends up sounding like white noise, especially when the band gets fast/thrashy. And half the song sounds like a song they had already recorded: Calling. The new Macabre has one major flaw, and it's that the new section isn't properly introduced. They play the song pretty much straight like the original, then stop and drop the new section out of the blue. But the new part is still composed well, I think. It's self-indulgent, yeah, especially with the big dramatic ending with the church organ, but I think this was DEG getting that last little bit of prog pretentiousness out before more or less getting back to basics for Arche. Kuchiki no Tou is a great example, as is Ray. But Luna Sea also made a clunker with Forever and Ever, smack dab in the middle of an otherwise perfect album. I just feel like the song is boring and goes nowhere (though I should point out my slight bias against songs written strictly in 6/8. No I don't know why). And then there's ACE's Elementa Alchemica, which was clearly just four songs glued together. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ro plz 1290 Posted September 12, 2015 TL;DR - Dir needs to focus on themes or delivering specific emotions instead of attempting to impress us with god-knows-what kind of throwbacks throughout over-5 min mayhem. Rinkaku was the best song they have done for a long time, but let's face it: the song left a lot to be desired in terms of being coherent Spam...... Spam.... WOW. SPAM. Pretsy, bro.... We need to talk (fight) this out in private. I'm so... That's it... 1 Pretsy reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DogManX 179 Posted September 12, 2015 @Pretzels It always amazes me how long people can stretch an "I don't like it".... 1 nekkichi reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
emmny 4139 Posted September 12, 2015 all diru long songs slay except mazohyst i hate that shit diabolos basically got me into dir en grey LOL 1 DogManX reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DogManX 179 Posted September 12, 2015 sheesh mazohyst is fucking boring. dunno what people like about this song. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Saishu 1589 Posted September 13, 2015 I like the abridged version they started playing live a couple years back. I believe there's a performance of it on the Sustain the Untruth DVD. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pretsy 1343 Posted September 13, 2015 @Pretzels It always amazes me how long people can stretch an "I don't like it".... It always amazes me how people tend to tl;dr right away and miss the whole context as a result. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ro plz 1290 Posted September 13, 2015 No Rinkaku slander or criticism shall pass here. No. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Saishu 1589 Posted September 14, 2015 Rinkaku was such a huge relief after Dum Spiro Spero. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Furik 832 Posted September 14, 2015 What's with all this Mazohyst hate? Wtf. I thought it was a DEG classic. 3 nullmoon, Des and Pretsy reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Des 289 Posted September 14, 2015 Mazohyst is an eerie song that drags on ...and on.. and on... but other than say that super long yawn-inducing Versailles song, the long, lingering Mazohyst of decadence serves a purpose because it adds this crawling in pain-like atmosphere to the song which is effectively creepy Only I heard the song was something like an anti-abortion statement and if that's true then I don't like that too much Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Saishu 1589 Posted September 14, 2015 Mazohyst's lyrics are written from the perspective of a fetus being aborted. Obscure is about abortion as well. Whether or not Kyo is pro-life, who knows. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ghost 2687 Posted September 15, 2015 In short, it's overated. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pretsy 1343 Posted September 15, 2015 Since everyone and your mother is placing Vinushka on the pedestal in terms of every gargantuan song they've made (because being Opeth-ian is totes cool and in, rite?), we should rather discuss that how genius of a song Macabre's title song really was (original, not the messy remake) - sure, it doesn't offer much if you've listened to a decent share of pre-Millennium prog acts or so, but in vk context "MACABRE" (the song) was a huge step up for unique vk bandomen sensibilities back in the day. ps. why is no one mentioning DIABOLOS rehashing exactly the same riffage from "heavy part" (in the middle)? (because BLITZ had quite horrendous mixing anyway) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ro plz 1290 Posted September 15, 2015 I'm guessing the reason ppl aren't poking at that rehashed middle section is because it's like beating a dead dog with a stick. It's there, we know it. Some ppl like it enough to not care or some ppl just don't care at all. I think Diabolos is the evil brother of Vinushka. But one that you kinda forget exists sometime. It's just not that special when ranked with Macabre or Vinushka. Still a good listen, regardless. No offense, Brodie but not everyone is out to point out supposed flaws in music. If anything, that makes music less enjoyable. But if that's what one likes to do then hey so be it. As for original Macabre, i love it. It is a genius song. And the In Weal Or Woe version is sex. For some reason, the softer production on that performance worked very well. Seemed....what's the word, organic? I need to listen to this more. But newer MACABRE has my attention these days. The Sustain the Untruth performance is pretty killer. And I love the incorporation of the acoustic guitars. My goodness. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DogManX 179 Posted September 15, 2015 @Pretzels And what is writing shorter songs then? Municipal Wastian? Give it up. Bands happen to write long songs. Dir en grey's long songs can be counted on one hand. It's a natural outdrift. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. That's how easy it is. 1 Ro plz reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Saishu 1589 Posted September 15, 2015 Diabolos could have been better if Shinya's playing wasn't so pedestrian and empty during the heavy parts. He makes it boring. If you remove the heavy parts Diabolos is actually a beautiful song. And as far as the new Macabre, I'm not sure why people are so down on it. They pretty much play it the original way for the first 9 minutes or so, then the new part comes in. I like how the final lines from the original are incorporated into the new section. I like the addition of the acoustic guitars, and the back and forth guitar solos are great too. In terms of production, well, yeah it could be better, but I think the way it was reworked makes sense within the context of what DEG is right now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
emmny 4139 Posted September 15, 2015 macabre>vinushka tbh but i like vinushka more cuz headbang ^.^ 2 clow_eriol and nullmoon reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tokage 5930 Posted September 16, 2015 That 5 mins or whatever demo version of DIABOLOS is actually better than the album version imo, i really wish they would release more demo versions of tracks. That Dozing Green demo is also incredible. 1 Zeus reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crube 585 Posted September 17, 2015 I remember walking from Renton to downtown Seattle one day when Mazyohst came on the MP3 player. I almost forgot that it was even on until that little beep halfway during the song. Municipal Wastian? I want to hear a MW influenced song by DEG now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Saishu 1589 Posted September 17, 2015 I remember knowing what word they bleeped out, now I forget. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
emmny 4139 Posted September 17, 2015 sum1 investigate this^^ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Saishu 1589 Posted September 18, 2015 Okay, I posed this question to another group and this was the answer I got. "I think it's "kikeiji" 「奇形児」 if I'm spelling that correctly, which is a nasty word for "freak baby" that appears in lots of VK songs." 2 Crube and emmny reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
