Do Japanese men dislike visual kei?

[diryangrey 121]

in 2014 i saw Royz (for their 7hrs live) in beppu & Mejibray in nagoya -

Royz's audience was like 10% male but w/ the exception of i think one dude all the other guys who showed up went as fancy w/ their clothes/hairmake as any young indiez band's members look. Some gya also dressed up that much & some didn't but for the guys in particular, seems like everyone who went looked unmistakably 'into vkei' enough that they looked like members mid-photoshoot from another band.

Meji's show was a lot more balanced (maybe bc it was a more normal show not in a tiny city?) and i'd guess like 70% girls 30% guys. people still dressed up but it was a smaller percent of the audience that did that i think. Aside from the gender ratio & the maybe 30% of the fans that went full vk with their look, i feel like the audience of that meji show would be a lot easier to confuse w/ the crowd at a punk or metal, non-vk show.

I & my two friends were (i'm pretty sure) the only foreigners at the Royz show (of ~400 people); there were maybe 15-20 overseas girls at Meji's show (decently full ELL if that makes for a # for reference to anybody), but to the best of my knowledge i was the only foreign guy at either.

Oh, maybe worth noting i went to see Sadie's instore/CD-signing at Tower Shinjuku & off the top of my head it was a pretty similar ratio to Meji, maybe a bit less even though? & looked like the ages of people had a good deal more in their late 20s / early 30s. Meji's live seemed like mostly people in their 20s, Royz's felt similar but younger overall.

Out of the shows i saw here at cons (Naitomea, Meteoroid, Pentagon), seemed 50/50 as far as i could tell. but at The GazettE's oneman (as in, no anime-con attached) that was almost as 90/10 girls to guys as the Royz show. i even saw like at least three sets of a teenager who'd brought along their clearly uninterested parents.

I also showed up to Revine & Dixdriver's instores just bc they were near my hostel & why the hell not if i'm already in Japan, and i was definitely the only guy & the only foreigner at both. I'm sure i looked even more out of place than i felt.

Edited September 14, 2017 by diryangrey
forgot about the america shows

[emmny 4139]

my friends don't feed into the ignorant gay comments, LOL save it for another thread because we all know the answer to why that is a stupid argument

 

as for why some band throw men only lives, it because the atmosphere for some bands is radically different between their male and female fans. i think this applies a lot for bands who are on the cusp of visual, so women's only lives might have more people engaging in certain furitsuke with a more "respectful" atmosphere whereas the mens lives are probably set up to be more wild, unhinged, "western style" live experiences. This is pretty similar to how gender is portrayed in the scene, with gyao tending to be more there to have fun rather than closely following typical gya conventions (worrying about how pretty their dresses are for their fav guitarist at kamite to see them from 4th row). On the flipside, some bands with male fans (check any DEG live report) can grind female fans (and even some dudes) the wrong way.

 

 

[nekkichi 6043]

wasn't phantasmagoria notorious for having a yuge male following on top of their remarkable commercial success?.. 

I also recall lynch. having quite a few male fans, which might be a by-product of toning down vk looks and therefore attracting dudes who typically listen to western alt-metal bandz.

 

I also know that normie japanese expats recognize luna sea, but idt any of current bands come anything close to that.

 

56 minutes ago, seikun said:

I said femininity is not attractive for gay men.

[seikun 317]

1 hour ago, nekkichi said:

wasn't phantasmagoria notorious for having a yuge male following on top of their remarkable commercial success?.. 

I also recall lynch. having quite a few male fans, which might be a by-product of toning down vk looks and therefore attracting dudes who typically listen to western alt-metal bandz.

 

I also know that normie japanese expats recognize luna sea, but idt any of current bands come anything close to that.

 

I'm not sure what the gif implies, I'm just debating the idea tht gay men are attracted to men as they present themselves in Visual Kei on a general scale.

I have tried to introduce VK bands to so some in the past, all kinds of bands with no success.

They would rather go for Nick Jonas.

[inertia 61]

Versailles is one of the bands that does male-only lives. At first it seemed like the main reason was to promote a welcoming atmosphere for male fans too, so they didn’t feel excluded. It worked, and I think their fandom may have ended up being at least 30 to 40% male. They continued the tradition of male- and female-only lives each year, and I think part of it is like emmy said, because of the atmosphere. Some of the male fans at Versailles lives were pretty rough, and when they got heated up during the concert it was scary for us female fans. It’s not fun when a guy that weighs 50% more than you takes a running flying dive right into you. You’d think it would be common sense to go easy when you’re jumping against someone who’s a lot smaller, but it took repeated blog posts from Hizaki asking the male fans to be gentle to the girls before it became less bad. 

 

Anyway, from what I’ve heard, the male-only lives are pretty rough, and it sounds like a lot of guys are happy to have the opportunity to roughhouse and go wild on a level playing field with teammates who can take it.  And when it’s a girls-only live, it’s really nice to be able to see easily and feel physically safe.

Edited September 14, 2017 by inertia

[suji 8317]

**We're mainly discussing men and visual kei, not the #NoFatsNoFems movement.

 

Stay on topic guys. 👌

[WhirlingBlack 1043]

I think that this situation sort of showcases the discrepancy between the western and Japanese fandom, in some ways. We in the west have sort of built up our own subculture surrounding VK that isn't the same as it is in Japan. In Japan, attending VK lives can have connotations that a lot of guys would want to avoid, the informal rules surrounding the lives can also make the shows less enjoyable to men too, as in the whole staying put in your spot, allowing time and space for the girls to fix their hair between each headbang and stuff like that. The western VK fandom treats it more like any other alternative subculture whereas I feel like in Japan it has unhealthy connections with the host ideals. 

 

I went to a VK bar in Tokyo and talked to the bartender and he said that the regular girls scared away other customers on the weekends by refusing to let him serve others, since they "paid for his company" by buying drinks, and they would demand from him to play only the one band they listen to the entire night.

I think for a lot of guys who are into VK, most Japanese men who are into VK are CD-only by the way, as in they don't attend the shows but just buy the music from stores and might occasionally show up to onemans and stand in the back, this doesn't create a fun atmosphere since they would prefer to just hang about and talk shit about music and listen to a dozen different bands. 

 

I realize that the bangya culture is what keeps the bands afloat, but I think it's also this culture that sort of kills the fun for a lot of guys who enjoy the music and enjoy the scene aesthetically but isn't just invested in one band and wants to enjoy some host fantasy with them. And this is why guys have a larger part in the western fandom because ours really isn't connected much to the Japanese one beyond listening to the same bands.

 

To be fair though, quite a few bands try to remedy this by doing those male only shows, and I think that's an awesome thing, although I wish it weren't necessary.

 

[qotka 433]

10 minutes ago, WhirlingBlack said:

I realize that the bangya culture is what keeps the bands afloat, but I think it's also this culture that sort of kills the fun for a lot of guys who enjoy the music and enjoy the scene aesthetically but isn't just invested in one band and wants to enjoy some host fantasy with them. And this is why guys have a larger part in the western fandom because ours really isn't connected much to the Japanese one beyond listening to the same bands.

Bangya culture is not just something that keeps vkei afloat. It's communities of (mostly) women who would never get to experience live music the way they do if they went to a 'regular' rock or metal concert. So while it kills the fun for some men who come to the show expecting one thing and getting something different, or prevents men from coming to lives, I think it's an essential part of what vkei is.

[WhirlingBlack 1043]

It's an essential part of what VK turned out to be eventually, at least. If that's good or not I suppose is in the eye of the beholder.

[qotka 433]

5 minutes ago, WhirlingBlack said:

If that's good or not I suppose is in the eye of the beholder.

Agreed. My POV is that of a woman who's been to enough 'regular' concerts to appreciate the unique situation in vkei. 

 

What I'm saying is that if you take away this property of vkei, you leave a whole group of people with almost ZERO OPTIONS to enjoy live rock/metal music freely (something most men can do at most rock concerts in the world - including vkei concerts in Europe/America, when those happen) - the fact that they can do it surely can't be a bad thing?

 

Not saying there aren't problems in the scene, but this particular angle is very important in my opinion.

[WhirlingBlack 1043]

Of course there are two sides to everything, but the topic in question was about guys and how they feel about VK so I answered from that perspective, which happened to be my own as well.

[Komorebi 2193]

1 hour ago, qotka said:

Bangya culture is not just something that keeps vkei afloat. It's communities of (mostly) women who would never get to experience live music the way they do if they went to a 'regular' rock or metal concert. So while it kills the fun for some men who come to the show expecting one thing and getting something different, or prevents men from coming to lives, I think it's an essential part of what vkei is.

I have to agree with this 100%

After attending several VK lives in Japan I almost lost interest in going to concerts in the west. 

As much as I feel sorry for japanese guys not being able to fully enjoy the scene there, I was extremely grateful for being able to stand in saizen AND breathe at the same time. Being pushed around and covered by other people's sweat while being squashed by dudes who are trying to push to the front is NOT an enjoyable experience.

 

it is kinda sad though, whichever scenario happens, it means there's a fairly large portion of the audience who will not fully enjoy the live. 

[hiroki 5521]

following seikun's impeccable logic all the bangyas in vk are actually secretly lesbian because there's absolutely no reason why straight girls would be attracted to 'feminine' bandmen 

 

while we're on this topic, i also don't get:

- why there's still the weird division dictating that guys must be into vk as "ongen-gyao" who only collect cds, and girls only go to lives to swoon over hot bandmen

- why the former is somehow usually conceived as more superior to the latter.... almost every guy who's an armchair connoisseur of vk i've encountered exudes the insufferable air of making themselves sound like consumers of vk who are more sophisticated than "those bangyas over there" aka the "necessary evil" that keeps the scene afloat

- why the two are even mutually exclusive in the first place, as if being into the bandmen themselves somehow diminishes or effaces one's ability to appreciate/talk about music intelligently

 ...and i can go on.

 

basically i feel that people (mostly guys, but also girls who are concerned with being viewed a certain way) who actually have the money to spare AND want to participate are given pause because of these problematic assumptions. i've been saizen for bands (mostly very small) and have no problems with the girls or the bandmen themselves so i can't help thinking a lot of these strange ideas are self-imposed. people should just enjoy the scene in whatever way they want (yes, even if you're a guy who go to lives to fantasize about bandmen - what's wrong with that??), instead of losing sleep over what the bangyas in the same row are potentially gossiping about you.

[Komorebi 2193]

42 minutes ago, hiroki said:

 

following seikun's impeccable logic all the bangyas in vk are actually secretly lesbian because there's absolutely no reason why straight girls would be attracted to 'feminine' bandmen 

 

Actually part of my family thinks I'm a lesbian because of this XDD and I've heard other girls having their sexuality questioned based on the type of male artists they follow. It sucks. 

 

44 minutes ago, hiroki said:

why the two are even mutually exclusive in the first place, as if being into the bandmen themselves somehow diminishes or effaces one's ability to appreciate/talk about music intelligently

This one not only gets on my nerves per se but also leads to some really sexist comments from western male fans who like to make assumptions. "ohh I bet she only listens to NCBL cuz Hiro takes his shirt off, we appreciate how amazingly brootal the band truly is", "oshare bands are for girls" and such. 

[WhirlingBlack 1043]

I don't think it's a clear cut division as much as it's a generalization to make the point easier. There's plenty of bangya who are into many bands and have a wide knowledge of the scene, and there are plenty of guys who go to the lives and enjoy them despite not always feeling like circumstances are ideal (I've attended upwards of 100 VK shows, for example.) 

 

It's just that the majority fall into the stereotypes, whether it's self-imposed or formed by the strong consensus culture of Japan I don't know, but once something gets viewed in the public eye as being geared towards a specific audience, the threshold to dare to break that mold gets much higher, especially in a country like Japan where this is strongly discouraged in general.

In an ideal world people wouldn't care, like you say, but we all know that's not how group psychology works.

 

Also, I think it's pretty normal that people who invest a lot of time and money into something, whether accidentally or not, look down on those who settle for less, but fandom elitism is another topic and far from exclusive to the guys either - it goes both ways, it's just that both groups measure dedication by different scales. I know bangya who look down on girls who attend lives of other bands, for example, because it's seen as "treason" towards their main act. Or look down on the fanboys for not supporting the bands at shows more. Just like I know guys who look down on those who don't know and love that one band that was around for three weeks in '93. It's problematic for sure but I think delving deeper into it is taking the thread off topic?

 

If people want to make another thread to discuss the toxic elements of bangya culture or fandom elitism, I'd be all for it, and I think it'd be interesting topics to discuss in a wider sense, but let's try to keep it relevant to the topic of male fans in the VK scene here.

 

@KomorebiI think it's pretty easy to spot when someone actually cares about the music and when someone is only there to drool at the band. All it takes is a short conversation on the topic of the bands music. And it's not mutually exclusive at all. I have plenty of female friends who can do both, and as long as I can participate in the discussions about the music and they keep the discussions about the bandmens physique with ones that are interested, I'm all good.

 

[seikun 317]

1 hour ago, hiroki said:

following seikun's impeccable logic all the bangyas in vk are actually secretly lesbian because there's absolutely no reason why straight girls would be attracted to 'feminine' bandmen 

 

while we're on this topic, i also don't get:

- why there's still the weird division dictating that guys must be into vk as "ongen-gyao" who only collect cds, and girls only go to lives to swoon over hot bandmen

- why the former is somehow usually conceived as more superior to the latter.... almost every guy who's an armchair connoisseur of vk i've encountered exudes the insufferable air of making themselves sound like consumers of vk who are more sophisticated than "those bangyas over there" aka the "necessary evil" that keeps the scene afloat

- why the two are even mutually exclusive in the first place, as if being into the bandmen themselves somehow diminishes or effaces one's ability to appreciate/talk about music intelligently

 ...and i can go on.

 

basically i feel that people (mostly guys, but also girls who are concerned with being viewed a certain way) who actually have the money to spare AND want to participate are given pause because of these problematic assumptions. i've been saizen for bands (mostly very small) and have no problems with the girls or the bandmen themselves so i can't help thinking a lot of these strange ideas are self-imposed. people should just enjoy the scene in whatever way they want (yes, even if you're a guy who go to lives to fantasize about bandmen - what's wrong with that??), instead of losing sleep over what the bangyas in the same row are potentially gossiping about you.

 

I think some people love to misinterpret comments and I think when I said people tend to hold certain ideas about gay men that don't necessarily replicate in the outside world is kind of proven.

 

Another user said that VK artists are particularly popular among gay men in a similar fashion as they are among women. As another user said, most bands market themselves to women because there seems to be a commonly known attraction from women to VK artists. I doubt that specific type of attraction defines or characterises gay fans of Visual Kei. I'm not saying there aren't gay fans of VK who don't find them appealing; I'm saying I highly doubt that is a general factor for gay men. I would rather say a VK artist's charisma play a bigger role, the music and the safe space but I don't think most really see them beyond that.

 

 

 

[Komorebi 2193]

1 hour ago, WhirlingBlack said:

I think it's pretty easy to spot when someone actually cares about the music and when someone is only there to drool at the band. All it takes is a short conversation on the topic of the bands music. And it's not mutually exclusive at all. I have plenty of female friends who can do both, and as long as I can participate in the discussions about the music and they keep the discussions about the bandmens physique with ones that are interested, I'm all good.

I agree. And I've encountered all kinds of fans from both genres. 

 

But both the assumption that "female = only in it for the looks" and the usual "go fangirl somewhere else" from men really pisses me off.

 

And I also wonder if it's one of the reason male fans alienate themselves from the scene since they don't want to be seen as "shallow" by their peers. Especially in a country like Japan where what people think and say of you is a pretty big deal.

[VkBrutaliaN 1890]

from my experiences (roughly around 12-15 Vk lives i attended within the 3 times i visited japan) there was ALWAYS at least 1 guy in the crowd - so together including myself it would be 2.

the only live i've ever went to was this may at holiday shinjuku with VRZEL, DiSPiИA and a few super duper "no one cares" about bands and at that live i was really the only guy in the crowd.

 

also at DIMLIM's first oneman live it was pretty much 50/50 with male/female audience.

[Tokage 5930]

nearly everything i've seen & read about gya culture here and elsewhere feels utterly horrible and cultish to me so i dont rly blame dudes for not wanting to get dragged into that hell pit t b f

[jaymee 405]

On 9/14/2017 at 1:51 PM, seikun said:

I never said women don't pay attention to their music; I said women tend to focus more on looks and how attractive a VK artist can be to them.

 

Yup.

 

I mean I wish it wasn't the norm, but it is. Almost nobody sinks the amount of money regular gya do into going to VK lives just for the music. Of course they probably like the music and it may have some significance to them personally or artistically, but often you are going to support a certain member or band and be a part of the "world" they've created, be that the actual show itself or enjoying that feeling of belonging with other fans.

 

There are lives I've gone to just to show support for a band during a taiban so they at least make a little money that night. (When your choose which band your ticket money is going to.) From a music perspective, unless you like most/all of the bands playing, paying full price for a ticket just to hear 4-6 songs at a taiban isn't usually "worth it".

Edited September 15, 2017 by jaymee

[jaymee 405]

Also, the gay scene and what gay men find attractive in Japan may be different from the gay scenes in other countries?

 

When I first came to Japan a lot of gay dudes were into cute, cuddly "big" guys. One of my gay Japanese friends is somewhat feminine in dress/mannerisms, and he's had no problems getting dudes.

 

I also think it's important to note that your general fashionable Japanese dude looks kind of feminine by Western standards to begin with, so unless the VK guy is actually the "girl" of the band, he probably doesn't seem that feminine to people who like VK.

[reminiscing2004 617]

On 9/14/2017 at 12:27 PM, inertia said:

Some of the male fans at Versailles lives were pretty rough, and when they got heated up during the concert it was scary for us female fans. It’s not fun when a guy that weighs 50% more than you takes a running flying dive right into you. You’d think it would be common sense to go easy when you’re jumping against someone who’s a lot smaller

 

On 9/14/2017 at 3:11 PM, Komorebi said:

As much as I feel sorry for japanese guys not being able to fully enjoy the scene there, I was extremely grateful for being able to stand in saizen AND breathe at the same time. Being pushed around and covered by other people's sweat while being squashed by dudes who are trying to push to the front is NOT an enjoyable experience.

 

I found this thread really interesting to read through and see everyone's take on this topic. I'm replying to these quotes because it spotlights just how different the desires in a live concert experience are from male and female fans. Despite what some people (like the above quoted) consider to be normal and expect everyone would want from a concert, I'm here to say that the things Inertia and Komo mentioned as being bad are exactly what I want from a great live experience.

 

Not all male fans are like this, but I think this is a really common mindset for men. It's why a bunch of dudes who have never met each other can pile up in a cramped hot space and push the shit out of each other for a couple hours and leave with a big smile on their face, excited for the next time. I can't tell you how many times I've like shook someone's hand after a show or shared some acknowledging eye contact and nod with someone while leaving a venue after a night of moshing. The bond you have with those people is absurdly strong after the night. And why? It sounds silly, but its because you all got crushed, hit, pushed, soaked in sweat (if not yours, from someone else), and gave every ounce of energy you had while listening to some of your favorite music. It's simply cathartic.

 

It's not really a matter of lacking courtesy (or atleast not intentionally). The rough nature of a lot of predominantly male lives is because there's an unspoken agreement that most people WANT that kind of atmosphere (though obviously a lot of female fans want something different). I can guarantee you I'm always the skinniest/lightest dude in the pit. It's hilarious how little control I have and how far I will fly when pushed, but I wouldn't have it any other way. The best concert experiences for me always end sweaty, bruised, unable to speak, and feeling like I've just ran a marathon. When you find a show where everyone is on this same level, prepared to use up all of their spirit to making this experience count, you have something crazy magical. And a strong sense of unity comes from having been through that together with other people who were looking for the same thing. 

[Komorebi 2193]

16 minutes ago, reminiscing2004 said:

Not all male fans are like this, but I think this is a really common mindset for men. It's why a bunch of dudes who have never met each other can pile up in a cramped hot space and push the shit out of each other for a couple hours and leave with a big smile on their face, excited for the next time. I can't tell you how many times I've like shook someone's hand after a show or shared some acknowledging eye contact and nod with someone while leaving a venue after a night of moshing. The bond you have with those people is absurdly strong after the night. And why? It sounds silly, but its because you all got crushed, hit, pushed, soaked in sweat (if not yours, from someone else), and gave every ounce of energy you had while listening to some of your favorite music. It's simply cathartic.

I've heard these exact same things from my male metalhead friends.

It probably has to be a XX/XY chromosome thing or something lol

Edited December 1, 2017 by Komorebi

[NICKT 147]

Sounds like a pussy version of a fight club.

[BrenGun 2261]

go more ikebukuro chop underground started bands and you notice vkei bands with Male fans. 

what I have noticed is that guys more liie the "darker look vkei" and not so the "(more) colorfull".

 

I've a bunch of male friends who love vkei and also some popukar vkei reviewers are MALE!!!!!

 

If you guys want to more clear up about visual kei and  male fans. I could try to ask one of Japan most famous vkei music writer to tell us more about it. 

 

 

but still the colorfull real ikemen vkei bands, It's more a "female" thing. Than you see Guys attending.

 

but an artist kike YUKIYA has also many male fans. I went to kain gig. and about 50% was male.

so it does depends on the type of style if guys wanna go to a gig.

and Maybe theu simply wanna avoid drama with female fans? female can also be jealous to male fans, because yes often male fans get more (other) attention.  since most bands are happy to see a dude also enjoying their music.

Even tho Hiroki said he never felt a problem, but maybe there is a reason for that..

 

Still online you find lots of diehard japanese male vkei fans. but I feel as they don't really dare to stand up in the front. often if they go to a gig, they will watch from behind.