VK and Kpop....why?

[layzie 0]

I'm a guy and I listen to both.

For VK I mainly listen to dir en grey, but I'm also an MM fan and like both the glam and vk.

I was pulled into kpop by listening to a few snsd songs. Then I liked a few other kpop songs that started releasing by other bands also. Like B.A.P - No Mercy, or Sexy free and single by sj.

I can't speak either of the languages yet (and I plan on learning both partially because of the music and partially to visit those countries later in life), but how can you not like songs like the final, akuro no oka, saku, clever sleazoid, drain away, aint afraid to die.... Even if you cannot directly understand it (I have been able to know what is being said when it is being said by memory though).

[Ikna 1225]

So I've been frequenting a room on turntable.fm where a ton of KPOP is played everyday, and all I have to say is - anyone that listens to kpop and hates American mainstream pop/r&b/hip hop is a hypocritical cunt!

But isn't it the same with people who listen only to visual kei and claim the same?

I can't count how many times I read shit like "Visual kei is the best, it is so different, more emotional and better than mainstream music!". And of course "They are hot and sooo talented! Vk is the best metal music!"

Well, I haven't really listened to so many Kpop songs but I still think I am able to point out some similarities. I mean, today's visual kei bands aren't so different from Popstars in general (and this doesn't only include Kpop). In the last 10 years the visual kei costumes and wardrobes have become more "mainstream". Just compare photos of old gazette with new gazette, look at their clothes and make-up. Today they don't really look that extreme anymore. and if you wouldn't know they make rock music you would probaply think they are a japanese boygroup Their clothes can also be worn by anyone, even on the street or on a daily base. I think this can also be traced back to the earliest Visual kei bands. Luna Sea and Dir en grey have been considered to be stars too and have been featured in magazines doing some pretty photoshoots so their fans can drool over them.

Optically both Kpop and VK use the same base of fashion and appearance to please their fans. Similiar clothes, similiar hairstyle, and a bit make-up... also both "genres" have their totally delusional fanbase.

Of course musically there are a lot of differences, but even VK is nothing else than a mixture of all kinds of rock music trends and therefore as mainstream and "hip" as any other countries' popular rock music.

That's how I experience it, as I am not an expert about Kpop.

[Gizorz 24]

^ I think the point was that besides the language, kpop and american pop sound exactly the same.

[Tokage 5930]

another reason is that both are quite terrible 80% of the time

although by that reasoning you could lump in every single other genre in here as well because the largest part of most genres is bad

[bonsaijodelfisch 328]

^ I think the point was that besides the language, kpop and american pop sound exactly the same.

i actually don't think so,

i think kpop has a much more early to mid 90's american/euro-pop feel to it with all of its upbeatness, cheesy synths and its overall boygroup touch (duh..) which i quite like.

so it's kind of retro i guess? celebrating the height of pop music's artificiality in all its glory

[blackdoll 907]

Lycaon was my anchor, and when they announced they were ending, i thought well i don't need to be with their groupies who generally let me down. K-pop has generally better vocals, instrumental, and more diverse. while giving something to actually watch. Plus unlike vk they have show appearances and SM updates which gets subbed and you can connect with on a personal level. 

 

as for listening to them at the same time, they both are different while being influenced by the west.

[enyx 903]

So I've been frequenting a room on turntable.fm where a ton of KPOP is played everyday, and all I have to say is - anyone that listens to kpop and hates American mainstream pop/r&b/hip hop is a hypocritical cunt!

Damn, that profanity. I never realised Cat was such a hXc rebellious youth back in the day

 

But as for the main topic of the thread, some of the earlier posters were on the right lines. There are a lot of different reasons why people listen to music. Some people are more drawn to aesthetics (both musical and visual), others to composition, others more to the lyrical aspects, etc. I'd say that even the way that music is promoted can be a huge factor for some people, even if subconsciously. Given that, it's not entirely surprising that certain genres or styles that may seem mutually incompatible to some can be natural progressions of each other to other people. In the cases of both Visual Kei & K-Pop, they're both extremely similar in the way they're presented and marketed. Both place a significant portion (if not the majority) of their emphasis on selling idolised 'characters' based on their looks, personalities, and so on with the music often performing more of a secondary function; giving them a reason to be dancing around on camera or releasing new photos of them looking attractive for their new look, etc. I'd even go so far as to say that the only major difference between those two genres and a lot of Japanese idol music (AKB48 and the like) in that respect is the fact that they don't have the borderline paedophilic aspect to them that the latter does, which probably tends to be a major barrier for a lot of people. Basically, if you're really into visual aesthetics, idolising the personas that the band members present, etc, then it's not entirely surprising that you'd be drawn to both Visual Kei and K-Pop because in that respect they're very similar to each other.

[Ro plz 1290]

Idk, the fact that this thread even exists is kind of weird to me. It can simply be chalked up to what makes people tick musically as with any other genre imo. That's my general answer haha.

 

 

And i put heavy emphasis on musically because just like in VK (unless you're a stan), looks can't be the deciding factor on if the music is appealing or not. 

 

Personally, its cool to have yet another scene alongside the others i follow thats droppin music that i enjoy and can use as influence. 

[mahoujin 395]

There's a lot of similarity in the marketing of band/group members almost like characters in which you would have a favorite based largely on looks and personality. Aside from just that, the target audience is largely the same age and gender. To me, it's not really surprising. The music is very different, but I also have some very different or unexpected tastes in music that my taste in visual kei wouldn't indicate at all. 

 

I could be wrong on this one, but I know I grew up listening to a lot of boy/girl group pop like Backstreet Boys and Destiny's Child. Even though I'm not a K-pop fan, I could see K-pop being really welcoming and nostalgic of those sorts of times, even if as an adult you might have gravitated towards heavier music. 

[JukaForever 758]

I could be wrong on this one, but I know I grew up listening to a lot of boy/girl group pop like Backstreet Boys and Destiny's Child. Even though I'm not a K-pop fan, I could see K-pop being really welcoming and nostalgic of those sorts of times, even if as an adult you might have gravitated towards heavier music. 

 

That's my main reason for listening to following, it just felt natural to just like boyband/girlgroups. I'd like to add N'Sync, TLC, Spice Girls and S Club 7 to the list of groups that influenced me during childhood.

 

Other than that, the contrast in Hard/Artsy Rock and Cutesy/Lovable Pop is just a pleasing listening experience.

[emmny 4139]

i saw a tumblr post addressing this recently as a lot of the fandom are converting their visual blogs to kpop ones. the point they brought up was that its a shame to go from a subculture with so much fun and individuality to a genre with one set ideal of beauty, talent and composition.

its fucking true--where else you find bands like buglug, keel, DIV, pentagon, avelcain, DADAROMA, DOF, grieva, gazette and MORE basically all operating under the same label of "visual kei" but with incredible differences in sound and image? from metal to pop to alt rock to jazz to dance rock/electronic its all represented in the current scene. from what i understand, kpop isn't all one genre but its nowhere near the level you see in visual kei. in that respect its hard to compare the two, but either way its sad to see ex-visual fans become huge kpop stans where all the boys and girls look, dress, rap and sing the same with the same cute squeaky clean image. like come on, raise ur freak flag with pride go look like a visual idiot its better than being like allllllll the rest of 'em

[vanivani 558]

^ I agree with that statement so much. Visual kei is awesome for the diversity of genres within the scene. K-pop has its pros as well and can be entertaining, but it's interesting to see people jump from vk to kpop. Maybe some fans just get sick of visual kei and look for something else.

[Chi 2624]

I listen to both and you will find the same stuff in both scenes.

Bands/groups popping up left and right and you will hardly find a decent one nowadays and when you do they flop and disappear.

Your faves spending hours applying makeup and dressing up pretty.

The same delusional fans.

The same jmusic>kmusic or kmusic>jmusic dilemma that goes nowhere.

It's the same and it's not uncommon to switch from one scene to another when you get sick of it.

[plastic_rainbow 2162]

hmm, i find this rather interesting. i was only subtly aware of it, but i didn't know it happened to so many people. let alone, people who completely converted to kpop and denied ever listening to vk. when i found out that some people i knew started listening to kpop i just thought, ummm okay, and thought nothing more of it. maybe they were just into that kind of music and i wasn't.

 

i guess in my case of why it didn't happen to me is because i already listened to a little of kpop before i got into vk, hell even before i listened to jpop. did it, done it, and most likely never going back (kpop from the 90s is totally different from kpop today anyway). but i'm not gonna go around denying that i ever listened to any of that. also, after discovering vk, and getting bored of it at some point, i realized that there was more to explore in the rock genre so i branched off from there rather than shifting towards kpop.

[YuyoDrift 1540]

This is gonna be long as fuck, I apologize.

 

i saw a tumblr post addressing this recently as a lot of the fandom are converting their visual blogs to kpop ones. the point they brought up was that its a shame to go from a subculture with so much fun and individuality to a genre with one set ideal of beauty, talent and composition.

 

Mom/Pop shops here in Chicago/Neighboring areas too, have made that same assumption.

 

I've been on a VK CD hunting spree recently. Never have, but now I feel it's necessary.

 

Kpop is taking over almost completely here, solely because its what's hot ( I REALLY blame that one korean artist with his catchy tune). Slowly, these shops have been introducing a Kpop section, and every month, the section becomes bigger. Meanwhile, they've stopped/slowed bringing in new Visual Kei Rock (Anime OST's for that matter too), and Japanese Items.

 

I've asked 2 shop owners "hey, wtf is going on?" and their responses were pretty much:

• I've been asked by a # of people to start carrying some Kpop stuff
• It's really hurting my business if I don't start listening to their demands.
• People just don't buy the Japanese stuff anymore/right now

From a business standpoint, I understand. Kpop will bring them in extra revenue right now. Yet, at what cost?

 

Both shop owners (both Japanese) that I've asked say they despise Korean music and that they don't see the appeal (they claim that Japan has always had Pop Idols/Boy Bands), and that teens are pretty stupid (lol at least they're honest) because all these songs sound the same (no passion, vocalists are terrible (one even said that an artist she listened to sounded devoid of a soul lol)).

 

That same shop owner even opened up a small section for similar Japanese (Jpop) artists to see if they could bring more variety (how considerate amirite?), but she says that they'd sell maybe 8-10 CDs that day. Apparently when she asked a customer if she needed any help in that section, the person asked "Is this Kpop?"

 

IMO they see it as over-hyped to death crap they play repeatedly over the radio in S.Korea, brought to the U.S.A. They're not wrong, to an extent.

 

I was fortunate enough to listen to the JRock/Jpop combo as a kid, so Kpop is not that terrible. Yet, I just don't see the appeal (sounds the same to me) of Kpop.

My brother and his girlfriend are Kpop Stans and won't stfu about every hot release (they've been fans for years, before the Kpop wave here in the US), and they've told me that it's great that the music is easier to access.

It's still better than Nicki Minaj, Katy Perry, and whoever the fuck else (I stopped caring a few years ago), I guess.

[CCXXVIII 30]

i've been into k-pop since around 2007-2008, and i've stuck around till end-2014 where i finally discovered j-rock lol.

in my opinion, k-pop is definitely more geared towards the younger generation than j-rock (that's not to say they don't have older fans of course).

 

k-pop is pretty much very alike, even if a group's concept changes, most of their music still sound like the generic k-pop sound, not to mention how similar everyone looks lmao. it's nice for a while, but it does get kinda stale after some time. on the other hand, j-rock is extremely diverse and every band you come across sound quite different from the previous (though some do sound alike).

 

if anything, k-pop has better entertainment than j-rock though, such as all the variety shows and everything (japan has them, but certainly not for j-rockers).

[seikun 317]

Kpop sounds westernized because they want to appeal to the western audience. It has no roots in traditional Korean music; it is totally western-like.

 

VK and Japanese music in general, well, he explains better the difference with Kpop.

 

[shiroblanc 5]

Kpop is catchy as hell, can't deny that, but personally I prefer more depth in musicality.

[Pretsy 1343]

Kpop sounds westernized because they want to appeal to the western audience. It has no roots in traditional Korean music; it is totally western-like.

 

VK and Japanese music in general, well, he explains better the difference with Kpop.

 

The thing is that J-music in overall still takes many hints and notions from older mainstream music (i.e. kind of stuff you'd normally hear in Beatles-inspired acts and the Beatles themselves - e.g. ",if I fell in love with you"), while K-pop tries to adapt to newer trends and blow them out of proportions in order to look "intriguingly Asian" (quite racist when you think of it but we as weeaboos should know better).

 

As a case in point where you could find Marty's idea of "typical approach in J-music":

 

Almost the same kind of progression, maybe the structure too

[doombox 4421]

I agree, there's some flaws in Marty's explanation. There are bands who draw from Japanese folk/traditional and there are many bands who don't and draw from completely western influences. It is also very much the same with Kpop. You will find (more in the solo/ballad/drama theme) side of kpop the Korean folk influenced music, and then the dance oriented "trendy" groups are tuned into the newer western/global musical trends. 

 

Let's also not forget VK is a very indie, underground, niche, sub-genre kind of scene. Kpop is meant to appeal to the MASSES. So yes, one is going to intrinsically be more formulaic than the other. There really isn't a comparison as far as musical value. 

 

As to the original question of why do people like both? I think for the same reason people can like rock and pop from any country. As a kid you could catch me listening to boy groups like Nsync and New Kids on The Block hand in hand with rock and punk bands, and that's never really changed for me. But the people who have to move from one scene to another and then look down their noses at the people who still like whatever it is they've moved on from are being elitist. Going on about how deep and creative VK is versus how "shallow" and one-dimensional Kpop is just kind of makes people look like jerks to me. There isn't a common thread between the scenes, it's just where that person is at with their life. As long as those people who used to like VK and enjoy Kpop aren't going around talking bad about VK fans, I don't really care what they enjoy. I'd much rather them go spam about something they enjoy instead of being a crab apple who shits on every new VK band for not being "as good as the old bands", tbqh.

[Chi 2624]

The thing is that J-music in overall still takes many hints and notions from older mainstream music (i.e. kind of stuff you'd normally hear in Beatles-inspired acts and the Beatles themselves - e.g. ",if I fell in love with you"), while K-pop tries to adapt to newer trends and blow them out of proportions in order to look "intriguingly Asian"

 

if you are talking about j-music in general then you also have to talk about k-music in general, not just kpop. korea has an indie scene and rock bands too just like japan.

[lichtlune 915]

I think one reason that I didn't hear brought up could be the community? Or the feeling of being apart of something? VK has kind of lost it's community beyond this site. I don't really hear people chatting about new bands or releases as much anymore. I kind of feel like an outsider listening to vkei now. 

[Pretsy 1343]

if you are talking about j-music in general then you also have to talk about k-music in general, not just kpop. korea has an indie scene and rock bands too just like japan.

I didn't exclude K-indie either but the thing is that most K-indie acts adhere to the standard practices in current western indie - so we are not necessarily expecting much of what Marty was addressing here in terms of contemporary J-pop music (not fully western-inspired approaches in the vein of Hikaru Utada or those R'n'B acts) and most of the non-indie Japanese rock, including VK (I could already name a few (poppy) Vk acts that share the same gusto in conveying "extravagant" interpretations of Western influences - "Japanesque" doesn't always lie in being "traditionally Japanesque", i.e. koto music and all that shizznit, no). I am still unable to point out what exactly separates J-indie from standard indie but I will get back to this soon as I can.

 

Furthermore, the overall music industry in Japan is taking huge turns to the left and right so it's given that we would see this polarization of genre and song structure approaches. As much as there is some similarity between current K-pop and J-pop (and rock) household names, J-music still bears remnants of "mix of interpretation and roots music" in the presence of current generations. K-music on the other hand obviously enough pushed the whole collective of musical artistry to adopt at least a half of "what's trendy or trend-worthy"-kind of philosophy in their songwriting - including K-indie acts with soundscapes akin to what would be hot for needledrop's fanbase and whatnot.

 

For further inspection, I would advise you guys to give a deeper look into what exactly is "Kayoukyoku" (a.k.a "Showa era pop") and how much of it is really reflected in contemporary Japanese music anyway. This is pretty tricky topic anyway but the more one knows about history of popular music in Japan...and Korea respectively, the better.

[doombox 4421]

Furthermore, the overall music industry in Japan is taking huge turns to the left and right so it's given that we would see this polarization of genre and song structure approaches. As much as there is some similarity between current K-pop and J-pop (and rock) household names, J-music still bears remnants of "mix of interpretation and roots music" in the presence of current generations. K-music on the other hand obviously enough pushed the whole collective of musical artistry to adopt at least a half of "what's trendy or trend-worthy"-kind of philosophy in their songwriting - including K-indie acts with soundscapes akin to what would be hot for needledrop's fanbase and whatnot.

 

Jambinai says hello. I would be careful generalizing Korean music so narrowly. Just because Korean media paints it with a "collective" brush does not mean Korea lacks depth of musical genre variation or contemporary acts that hold onto traditional elements. 

[seikun 317]

The thing is that J-music in overall still takes many hints and notions from older mainstream music (i.e. kind of stuff you'd normally hear in Beatles-inspired acts and the Beatles themselves - e.g. ",if I fell in love with you"), while K-pop tries to adapt to newer trends and blow them out of proportions in order to look "intriguingly Asian" (quite racist when you think of it but we as weeaboos should know better).

 

As a case in point where you could find Marty's idea of "typical approach in J-music":

 

Almost the same kind of progression, maybe the structure too

 

No one is denying that J-music also takes from or is inspired by mainstream/western music, however, be it subconsciously or deliberately, J-music also is influenced by traditional Japanese music and some way or another it defines/models its sound.

 

Japanese people make music for their ears so it is natural that sounds that best suit their taste will prevail. Kpop, on the other hand, makes music for as many people as possible.