shiroihana

This is problematic because the same argument are used by delusional fans to claim that a band is completely original when they're clearly not. I take Grieva as an obvious example. I don't mind them, and I think they can be fun and a nice listen on occasion, but when people say that they haven't ripped Dir en grey off in several tracks, they're deluded. You can literally sing the lyrics to DIARY on top of a karaoke version of JEALOUS and it would mostly fit.
 
As  for "hatred", I think that people just try to assert their opinions about a band and assume that everyone understands that the "in my opinion" is implied. I like several things other people deem terrible, and vice versa people enjoy a lot of things I think is absolutely horrendous. And since the VK fandom is so heavily invested in their bands, when opinions clash it tend to lead to argument and people taking it as a personal insult. I don't think this is going to change any time soon so we just have to do our best to argue WHY we do/don't like something and then let everyone have a constructive debate. 

Harsh or not, you guys are all posting productive responses and I appreciate it. 
 
Also to Tokage:
 
" 'If you hate it so much, I'd like to see you try to release something better :^)'-argument is incredibly weak and on the same tier as food analogies in terms of their ability to utterly kill a conversation and render it meaningless, and it's usually the tell-tale mark of a stan. "
 
I wasn't really trying to use that as an argument and I'm sorry if it seemed that way. 
 
Of course, a person doesn't have to possess talent in order to criticize. If I fell for that type of logic I wouldn't be able to criticize Amy Schumer's leather special which was complete dog shit. The point was just that people rarely seem to grasp what it takes to get to a certain level, even if that level isn't super impressive. Perhaps it's a bad point, but it's a little difficult to articulate in the best way possible.
 

Yeah I'm not sure if this is the right spot to write this but I'm just going to write it anyway because I think it's a real issue that is worth talking about (since I haven't seen anyone ever talk about it). Perhaps it should be moved to one of the music sections since it is music related, but I wasn't sure how the rant would end. What do you think of indie visual kei bands? Or indie bands in general? I'm talking about really new young bands that may not have that much talent or skill, but still play their damn hearts out and pour their soul into the music. I'm talking about bands that belong to unpopular labels if at all, often comprised of a bunch of kids 18 or 19. I'm talking about people who really just got into the business. Think Jui from Vidoll during De-vine for example.
 
I've noticed for years now that there are music elitists /  snobs / parasites / whatever you want to call them in the VK community, and in musical communities in general. They're WAY too harsh when they criticize music, nearing delusion but are rarely called out on it.  The other day I listened to an indie band's final release, and it was full of passion and emotion, and the vocalist improved before that band disbanded (they were really bad at the beginning lol). The band I'm talking about is called ReivieЯ and the song is called Dears. Basically they had a final release that was really good in my opinion, and it was very emotional, then I went to read reviews of the album and everyone was talking absolute shite. People were saying that the release was bad and that the vocalist sucked or didn't improve (which is bullshit), and I was just thinking to myself something along the lines of "Wow. This release (Dears in particular) was full of so much emotion and I can really feel the music and enjoy this. I want to see you detractors put out something even half as good as this. Why do people just talk shit and ignore every good aspect of the release to say negative shit instead?".  The vocalist has since joined a band called Fixer and has improved  immeasurably since RevieЯ's first release but anyway I knew for a while now that music critics are often overly harsh to the point of just being plain delusional. They ignore every good aspect of a song just to shit on it because vocals might be a little off at one part, or for any other petty trivial reason.
 
I've noticed that these people tend to dislike nearly everything that isn't produced by extremely talented and highly trained artists. I thought that music was supposed to be an artform, a canvas to express emotion and feeling and share it with others. I didn't know that music was supposed to be monopolized by only extremely skilled musicians with very difficult to achieve levels of skill, innovation and talent. I was always surprised by this attitude. The irony is that here in America, a lot of the popular music that the majority of people listen to is music that requires little to no no talent aside for in some instances so-so vocal training. It is not hard to sing a really basic pop song, it just requires a little bit of basic vocal training. You don't really have to use many vocal techniques to sing basic pop songs. Singing in a good power metal band and actually sounding good requires far more technique, time, training, ambition, dedication and effort, yet people eat mainstream pop / hip hop up like it's the best music on the planet. With visual kei I have had the exact opposite experience. 
 
In the end I don't really know what this rant achieves, but this is coming from someone who has loved indies visual kei bands for a decade now. I think that the attitude that a lot of people have towards musicians, especially singers discourages them from releasing their covers to the public, because criticizing towards us is usually very harsh and unconstructive. 
 

Yeah I'm not sure if this is the right spot to write this but I'm just going to write it anyway because I think it's a real issue that is worth talking about (since I haven't seen anyone ever talk about it). Perhaps it should be moved to one of the music sections since it is music related, but I wasn't sure how the rant would end. What do you think of indie visual kei bands? Or indie bands in general? I'm talking about really new young bands that may not have that much talent or skill, but still play their damn hearts out and pour their soul into the music. I'm talking about bands that belong to unpopular labels if at all, often comprised of a bunch of kids 18 or 19. I'm talking about people who really just got into the business. Think Jui from Vidoll during De-vine for example.
 
I've noticed for years now that there are music elitists /  snobs / parasites / whatever you want to call them in the VK community, and in musical communities in general. They're WAY too harsh when they criticize music, nearing delusion but are rarely called out on it.  The other day I listened to an indie band's final release, and it was full of passion and emotion, and the vocalist improved before that band disbanded (they were really bad at the beginning lol). The band I'm talking about is called ReivieЯ and the song is called Dears. Basically they had a final release that was really good in my opinion, and it was very emotional, then I went to read reviews of the album and everyone was talking absolute shite. People were saying that the release was bad and that the vocalist sucked or didn't improve (which is bullshit), and I was just thinking to myself something along the lines of "Wow. This release (Dears in particular) was full of so much emotion and I can really feel the music and enjoy this. I want to see you detractors put out something even half as good as this. Why do people just talk shit and ignore every good aspect of the release to say negative shit instead?".  The vocalist has since joined a band called Fixer and has improved  immeasurably since RevieЯ's first release but anyway I knew for a while now that music critics are often overly harsh to the point of just being plain delusional. They ignore every good aspect of a song just to shit on it because vocals might be a little off at one part, or for any other petty trivial reason.
 
I've noticed that these people tend to dislike nearly everything that isn't produced by extremely talented and highly trained artists. I thought that music was supposed to be an artform, a canvas to express emotion and feeling and share it with others. I didn't know that music was supposed to be monopolized by only extremely skilled musicians with very difficult to achieve levels of skill, innovation and talent. I was always surprised by this attitude. The irony is that here in America, a lot of the popular music that the majority of people listen to is music that requires little to no no talent aside for in some instances so-so vocal training. It is not hard to sing a really basic pop song, it just requires a little bit of basic vocal training. You don't really have to use many vocal techniques to sing basic pop songs. Singing in a good power metal band and actually sounding good requires far more technique, time, training, ambition, dedication and effort, yet people eat mainstream pop / hip hop up like it's the best music on the planet. With visual kei I have had the exact opposite experience. 
 
In the end I don't really know what this rant achieves, but this is coming from someone who has loved indies visual kei bands for a decade now. I think that the attitude that a lot of people have towards musicians, especially singers discourages them from releasing their covers to the public, because criticizing towards us is usually very harsh and unconstructive. 
 

That's another thing. I noticed that if an indie band sounds just a little bit similar to a major band, people will reduce all of that indie band's work down to being a cheap ripoff / copy of said major band. It's phenomenal really, there's no logic to it whatsoever.

yeah people who think MH ppl are bitchy really haven't gone far into the /mu/ related circlejerkes of the net, trve black metal online communities (literal nazis sweetie...not unite haters or whatever) or pop stan twitter...THAT shit is insanity and compared to any of the three MH is an absolute fucking joke. Its tougher on jrawk fans or whatever because they get attached to their crossdressing lil babus (who are in real life hosts) bc they might be one of the few western fans on the net for x band and so they want to protect them from trolling or w/e.  I get it too....except i dont because i don't stan trash...BUT when i do i got a sense of humour about it (don't come for aiolin please im sensitive)
lets put it this way, the only way you can in any capacity get upset is because you think someone else's opinion matters...and its the net...so don't do that. you could come here and shit talk dir en grey all you'd want and i'd laugh in your face because you need your ears checked...and you can do the same for when i think ABC sound like genital warts because my opinion is stupid and its literally just that. not that talking deliberate smack is such a light thing...but...the world is ending and i get my kicks off calling MiA voldemort's whore cousin because it gets a giggle out of somebody (usually just me). also, tanuki is literally full of this stuff...just not remotely as funny *cackle*. respects to u for voicing ur opinion though!
 
I think the days of hating x band because of y are over, everyone's too depressed about jrawk to be an annoying fan. I will say that the bands that got a following on tumblr, especially mejibray, have been a target for a while simply because of the annoying fan reception. as of bands that have come later than that...i could foresee pentacum turning into a roast magnet but visual kei is dead haha!

Thank you for this topic. I agree with everything. This has always been a thing tho, seeing some of this attitude way back. 
 
On the other hand I was stanning Dir en grey when I was younger, and it was obivious that some in the fandom thought Dir was the number 1 band, and that every other band sucked lmao.

>but anyway I knew for a while now that music critics are often overly harsh to the point of just being plain delusional. 
 
if you suspect this, it's likely the correct assumption when "reviewers" is a stand-in for "bored internet weebz"
 
also irrational hate twds random bands was huge when undercode was around, and when nagoya-kei was more or less a Thing for a few years
both aggregated the worst kinds of elitist dipshits in their respective western fandom bubblez lmao

Also; 
A lot of 'alternative' music - and I don't just mean VK -  just isn't for everyone, to be frank.
I'm pretty sure I'm not entirely wrong when I say that a lot of western indie/post-punk/goth bands also have singers (or, hell, just an overall sound) ranging from 'a bit of an acquired taste' to 'just plain fucking horrible'. For example, I REALLY can't stand Wayne Coyne's  voice (guy from The Flaming Lips), even though I really do enjoy quite a lot of the actual music I've heard by his band, they're a band that's been around for ages, they know their stuff, and they've been pretty adored by critics at some point.
Still, at the same time I love vocalists like Amano Tonbimaru from Guruguru Eigakan or Sharaku from FLOPPY/Metronome, and both of them are from an objective standpoint pretty damn bad (or at least 'not very good'). Despite that, I still stan them and their sometimes pretty janky-sounding music... Because they do something relatively original that can't be found all that much anywhere else. I'm personally a lot more lenient towards younger bands w.r.t. QUALITY if they bring something that's at least mildly unique to the table instead of just going full derivative, but I know other people may think differently. Whichever side you're on, you just gotta roll w/ the punches and keep liking what you like despite what 'critics' or whoever say.
I feel like a lot of (professional) music ""criticism"", as w/ film ""criticism" and videogame """"""""""criticism"""""""""", is all pretty much largely based on a.) industry relations and people getting paid off to give good reviews or b.) old grumpy OVERLY elitist fucks like Christgau or whatever... Now, if I had to choose between those two, I'd probably still incline more towards the latter category, but I think both are misguided in their own way.
At the same time, though, I gotta say that the whole 'If you hate it so much, I'd like to see you try to release something better :^)'-argument is incredibly weak and on the same tier as food analogies in terms of their ability to utterly kill a conversation and render it meaningless, and it's usually the tell-tale mark of a stan. I don't really understand the mindset of people who treat an insult to a band they like as if someone broke into their house and took a shit on their very own bed tbh..
 
tl;dr: just like what you like regardless of what 'critics' say, as long as you don't act like a stan about it there shouldn't be any problems lol

I'm a person that would have told you Jey from ReivieЯ sucked and I'd happily tell you that he sucks in his new band too -- but I listen to UNDER FALL JUSTICE so literally what the fuck do I know about good singing? If you asked everyone who complained about a band to list all of their likes you would surely find something to balk at too, so you can't take it too much to heart. I think a lot of it is just looking for validation about your subjective opinion, especially in cases where people seem to be raving about a band that you simply cannot stand. And sometimes it's basically just a meme, particularly if the fans of that band are on the overzealous side. (See: MH's perpetual Lycaon circlejerk/counterjerk, resquiat in pace blackdoll).

In VK the trend towards major/highly produced bands is come and go and depends very much on the community you're in. There was a time on livejournal where it was a contest to find the most irrelevant do-minor kuso band and create a fully graphically kitted out community before anyone else could. If new fans could recognize the bandmen in your icons you were probably not elite enough. For every trend like that, there's a backlash somewhere.

From someone is still very much on the outside and only recently delurked, I noticed. MH in particular likes to be pretty scathing. But imo it's just a trial by fire to dissuade people who might be more inclined to blindly stan than engage in serious conversation.

Hating a band because it's a "popular" thing to do is also a thing, and happen across almost every fan base. Like back when almost everyone hate Justin Bieber for being Bieber, or Nickelback regardless if they hear a song before or not.
 
Even if a hated band sounds nice they will still find something wrong with it. But like said above music is highly subjective and not everyone has the same taste and everyone is entitled to an opinion.
 
 

I've seen this occur ever since I got into visual kei, and that wasn't long ago. I've always appreciated indie bands, but I think many people have their reasons for disliking certain vocalists, bands, etc. (me included). But I understand what you're saying. 
 
Some harsh critiques are really out of ignorance, but let's remember art and music is  all subjective. I can see why some veterans have much higher standards for these newer bands, and I wish a lot of people can write the positives and negatives they see in something rather than bash, bash, and bash more. Even if bands lacks skills or have mediocre vocals (like many vk vocalists have actually....I mean. let's be real here), there is usually something good there for somebody.  So those people that truly enjoy their music, despite the lack of skills that may, objectively be there, should speak up a little louder. 
 
Also I think some of this blatant bashing is just because a band does not pander to someone's taste, and unfortunately, I may fall into that pit sometimes...but I'm in no way a snob. 
 
Generally, I think with any fandom were people have been in it a long while or are super serious, as most of us are here, they tend to come off snobbyish or close minded. So I think this phenomenon is unavoidable, and people (like me) with soft hearts should endure better and still talk freely about this music. Support these musicians with your money and your comments, likes, whatever, so they are not discouraged :))))
 
I'm a little emo that you mentioned Jui because I've seen him bashed here a ton and I love him to pieces.
By the way, who's that cutie in your sig?

Yeah I'm a man. Many people here know who I am but have never seen a full face photo of me so yeah.
 
 

Hell yeah~
 
I know this might sound bad to some people but I've been in serious online relationships but not serious in-person relationships, but really I'm a tremendous introvert in the sense that I don't like to spend a lot of time with people in person outside of leisure time so yeah that's a large part of it - whereas online I can do shit on my own accord arbitrarily and the responsibility of commitment never arises. I've had people fall in love with me whom I liked but I never really wanted my relationships to evolve into something bigger because that's not how I roll, yet still petty drama and baseless arguments were a frequent enough phenomenon that over time the thought of being completely single seemed much more desirable.
 
tl;dr I love being single but it's mostly because I don't actively pursue serious relationships (I prefer friendships) and I love me some alone time. I never understood why so many people feel an imperative need to be in a relationship either considering the way many if not most relationships deteriorate over time. I've seen so many heartbroken people who could barely even recover from a broken relationship so I wonder why it's so urgent to be in one considering what is very likely to end up happening.

| A wonderful resurgence for a band I didn't care for at all.
 
The halfway point of this decade marks a resurgence in Japanese music as a whole. I would have never thought guitarist Die of DIR EN GREY and Kobayashi of THE NOVEMBERS would team together and cross the traditionally solid divide between visual kei and indie rock. However, things that seemed a match in heaven at first were not. It became clear after the first few releases that the band couldn't find their sound. Kobayashi departing soon after was the best move for the band because Die found not one, but two new members to fill out the roster in vocalist Ataru Nakamura and violinist Ayasa. These additions imbued DECAYS with the charisma they previously lacked without changing their core sound.
 
Die's contributions to DIR EN GREY have always been eclectic and he's responsible for penning classics such as "Audrey" and "304号室、白死の桜" (304 goushitsu, hakushi no sakura). Those musical tendencies are everywhere in Baby who wanders. The whole album falls into the shoegaze realm with some punky influences. The crisp production really pushes the wall of sound shoegaze is known for and Die and Nakamura's vocals blend incredibly well. Ayasa's violin opens everything up musically, breathing life into their previously stagnant, almost mechanical sound. This is best shown when contrasting the album version of "愛と哀を遺さず…" with its single version. Supplemented with a healthy dose of electronics and a mesmerizing rhythm section, each song pulsates with a radiant atmosphere.
 
For a band I thought was a flop, DECAYS has done a lot to improve my opinion of them. Baby who wanders remains interesting right up to closer "綺麗な指" and gives off an intoxicating warmth that invites you back again and again. It gets better with every listen too; multiple listens brought me around on some tracks that didn't win me over the first time. Recommended heartily for any fans of pop, rock, or shoegaze looking for something new and captivating. This is so good it makes you forget it's a side project.
 
 
Support the band!
CDJapan | iTunes (Japan)

Get out of our girl's club :<

+1

Basically, MH is full of weirdos, so no worries you're not the only one. x)
Welcome to the forum~

Hey
So
 
I entered the forum some years ago with the main intention of helping with my social phobia, I guess no one knows me because I left it but now I'm back hopefully to stay. May I ask you to please be nice to me? I feel sick to my stomach when I receive a response online..........
I felt the need to start another introduction topic because I think I changed a lot during this time, this is kind of a new start to me, I can delete my old post (or can I?) if it's wrong to start another one.
I'm also kind of dumb and awkward, so don't mind some weird things I may say or do, sorry in advance...
 
I like mostly heavy stuff, be it rock, metal, electronic/industrial, punk, things that end in core, I love the screaming and the noises, but most things are disappointing me, specially in JRock, I was thinking of migrating to other genre like grindcore until I found Deviloof, so I'm giving it another chance... I also like discovering new genres like thall, japanoise or whatever and watching different and unusual things (Die Antwoord is a guilty pleasure of mine...), so if you find anything interesting and feel like sharing with someone, here I am~
 
My favorite bands are Dir en grey, Plastic Tree, Kagrra,, Mucc, Nocturnal Bloodlust (which reminds me that probably Deviloof will enter this list), The Piass, Sukekiyo, Kiryu, Ikd-Sj and recently I discovered Xaa-Xaa, Archemi and Kuroyuri To Kage, that I'm liking a lot too. I love traditional japanese things, so if you know more bands that use japanese instruments I'll appreciate if you show it to me. I'll also appreciate if you can recommend me more heavy bands like NB and Deviloof...
 
I hope it wasn't a waste of your time to read what I wrote, thanks for reading it.

I second this.

Ah lol I figured that's what you were talking about.
 
I have to be in a very particular mood to enjoy songs like that honestly lol
 
That songs reminds me of this.
 
 

We probably aren't helping with that
Sorry
 
 
 
 
Not sorry

That sounds like an incredible dream honestly.. lmao
 
As for me I literally don't remember 90% of my dreams ;__;

So I was in a car and Smileberry's Paru was the driver. I thought that he was gonna annoy me, since he's from a band I don't listen to (dream logic) but it turned out I was the one to annoy him with constant puns. At one point he almost jumped out of the car, because he was THAT annoyed.

For realz, this these: