My Opinion on Nocturnal Bloodlust`s Recent Remarks and Actions against `Piracy`

[nekkichi 6043]

 
I'm really glad you've said this yourself - 

If anyone wants to know how much it sucks being the child of a starving artist, go ahead and send me a pm.

 

which is very funny because you’re directing this to the same fandom that spawned Yohio and he seems p. happy with where he got I suppose (and he would have been a person one will expect to write all this stuff for you.)

 

You're correct in one way, but I overall disagree with this sentiment because we live in an international economy.

you literally spent a good chunk of your initial post explaining obstacles that are created to segregate cultural exchange, yet you come back to this point. indie VK exports are an exclusive, one of a kind, optional thing, unless there will be major distributor interest in this subculture. 

 

 

Everyone is enjoying making excuses: "It's too expensive." "The quality isn't good enough!" "I don't have the money." "I deserve music." This is the problem. No band owes their fans free music.  

 
if you were in charge of record companies, you would force people to pay for listening to the radio in their cars. can you imagine how many baka-american gaijins listen to country.fm every day because it’s right there for free, while they could be special ordering nokubura’s most recent from amazon.co.jp?

 

Also, “I deserve music” is literally an argument used by no one but you tbh, and you seem to enjoy your ability to tie any form of entitlement into discussion.

 

And I thought this was going to go bad not because of my response, but because it seems most of you are pro illegal-downloading. That in itself is scary enough.

we're pro-downloading because we came here to leech and stayed for the fun. how did you hear about visual kei?

 

don't forget that a good chunk of that music has been legally purchased before making it here.

[PumpkinPatches 48]

Just to answer your question:

I grew up in New York. My mother was a Seikima II and DEAD END fan, and I got a cassette of X's Blue Blood when I was like, 11. That's how I found visual kei. 

[nekkichi 6043]

Just to answer your question:

I grew up in New York. My mother was a Seikima II and DEAD END fan, and I got a cassette of X's Blue Blood when I was like, 11. That's how I found visual kei. 

 

cute. onto other points?

[PumpkinPatches 48]

You're the one who asked...? Your other points have no merit. They're literally pointless. I'm waiting for you to make a point that's worth a moment of thought.

[nekkichi 6043]

can we talk how intelligent and savvy Japanese samurai rockers are because we generally never hear of them procreating unless they're kiyoharu or play in glay-tier bands or retire from music completely

[Zeus 7997]

I’ll clear things up as well, and reiterate my point: domestic sales are important, but the existence of paying foreign fans should come as an unexpected ( ✔︎ ) unplanned ( ✔︎ ) unpredictable ( ✔︎ ) addition to the revenue, given the such and suchs of isolated Japanese retail and distribution. A band that is a certified flop by local measure has really no right to ask their foreign casual listeners to pay, while they failed to attract dedicated audiences in their home market.

This is the most understated point in this entire topic.

 

As "famous" (I use that word very loosely) as Nocturnal Bloodlust are, they're still an indie band an unpopular scene playing metalcore/deathcore music. Their fanbase is small due to the nature of their music and they only made it smaller by entering the visual kei scene. They haven't been active for all that long either. Bands that end up going abroad and are still successful in Japan are bands like the GazettE, X JAPAN, and Dir en grey, who have all been around for 10 to 15 to maybe even 20 years. And you know what all three of those bands had in common? They didn't give a fuck about the foreign market until they "made it" in their home country. The GazettE pretends the American continent doesn't exist and don't come here. I still can't find albums before Withering to death. in American stores.

 

Nocturnal Bloodlust have been around for what, three or four years? How many indie bands in Japan have been around for seven or eight years and still haven't been signed to a major label? How many just made it? Did they not do their research on visual kei before diving in? Not many VK bands accelerate to superstardom status in four years.

 

Placing things on iTunes for purchase, opening doors to fanclubs, etc. are all things other visual kei bands should be doing because it doesn't require a lot of effort and the returns are valuable. However, all those CD sales and MP3 purchases still translate into money that's only going to be used for advertising and concerts in Japan. If you don't have the budget to advertise overseas, then you aren't ready to go there yet. And when you factor in our inability to attend their concerts in person, buy their merchandise in person, support them in person, then our sales are but a miniscule portion of whatever revenue they get. We aren't that important. Yet.

 

But they realize our importance. If they don't stop activities some time in the near future, they'll get places.

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

I think one aspect that's you've been missing is one that Zess keeps saying: illegal downloads aren't sales lost because they're made by people who wouldn't have bought the album to begin with.

 

From what I've seen, a good deal of people don't even download music anymore since they can stream it on their iDevices. Maybe in 10~15 years Japan will catch on and we can listen to N.B. cover "Let It Go" on "Vizualizm Disney Vol 3" on Spotify

 

 

Nocturnal Bloodlust have been around for what, three or four years? How many indie bands in Japan have been around for seven or eight years and still haven't been signed to a major label? How many just made it? Did they not do their research on visual kei before diving in? Not many VK bands accelerate to superstardom status in four years.

 

This happens for bands outside of vkei as well: take Psy for example. Did anyone know who he was before "Gangum Style?" Unless you followed K-pop, probably not. And yet, that song became an international smash hit 6 albums into his career. The only recent vkei band that comes to mind that went from ???? to scene leading is Versailles, who did it in within a year and a half from starting during a perfect storm of international attention to vkei, a rise in popularity for brolita / gawfikku clothing, and being an alternative to the hard-rock / heavy groups, like most of their contemporaries were (D'espa, RES, Giruga, Mucc, etc).

 

I suppose Diaura / Mejibray are kind of doing the same thing, just on a much smaller scale, but only if stardom is measured in length of request threads for an album that came out a whole 17 hours ago.

[PumpkinPatches 48]

I actually do think there is a loss of sales. Even only 10% of those who want the CD purchase it because there were no illegal downloads available, that's big enough to matter in an industry where a band's lucky to sell 1000 copies of any release.

 

I can agree with some of what Zess said.  
 

Placing things on iTunes for purchase, opening doors to fanclubs, etc. are all things other visual kei bands should be doing because it doesn't require a lot of effort and the returns are valuable. However, all those CD sales and MP3 purchases still translate into money that's only going to be used for advertising and concerts in Japan. If you don't have the budget to advertise overseas, then you aren't ready to go there yet. And when you factor in our inability to attend their concerts in person, buy their merchandise in person, support them in person, then our sales are but a miniscule portion of whatever revenue they get. We aren't that important. Yet.

 

But they realize our importance. If they don't stop activities some time in the near future, they'll get places.

 

 

The biggest problem with this is that it is pretty easy for a band to do. Yet most of these bands don't even know foreign fans exist. Why? Because no one's buying the music. They're not causing enough a a commotion for the band and their management to take account that they are worth the time invested. 

 

I think it's pretty fair to say these guys do realize how important foreign fans are. They're trying, and yet when they bring up the point that they CAN'T do anything more until they have the support from the fans, they get messages about how terrible they are for speaking up, people saying "Fine then, I don't want to be a fan anyway!". And then sites like this debate over whether or not they even have a right to state their opinions on illegal downloading, with links to their new three singles not even five clicks away.

 

I have no idea if they'll ever get super popular abroad, but I can say that there seems to be the interest in them. But even if we were talking about another band, it's kind of ridiculous to be angry that a member tweets (rather nicely, considering) that fans should respect his art and at least try to buy it. '

 

Fans have to be part of the solution. If they want a voice in the market, they need to put their money where their mouth is. Because, if nothing else, money is what management listens to.

[Zeus 7997]

I actually do think there is a loss of sales. Even only 10% of those who want the CD purchase it because there were no illegal downloads available, that's big enough to matter in an industry where a band's lucky to sell 1000 copies of any release.

And if there were no illegal downloads available, would there be 10% of the fans willing to pay for their music? Would they even have overseas fans? This is one of those questions that has no right or wrong answer since it's all hypothetical, so I'll just let you ponder that.

 

 

The biggest problem with this is that it is pretty easy for a band to do. Yet most of these bands don't even know foreign fans exist. Why? Because no one's buying the music. They're not causing enough a a commotion for the band and their management to take account that they are worth the time invested.

If a band won't take the steps to cultivate a foreign fanbase, then of course they won't have people buying their music! Like we agreed, it's a very easy thing to do. Most bands are probably focusing all of their energy on the domestic market, so the question now becomes do they not know or do they not care? I think they don't care, because it would be a very big stretch to argue that any given visual kei band would know that other visual kei bands have overseas fans but they themselves know they do not.

 

Fans have to be part of the solution. If they want a voice in the market, they need to put their money where their mouth is. Because, if nothing else, money is what management listens to.

I don't think a few hundred people all over America buying Nokubura's next album is going to cause any real change one way or another. It'll be a little more cash in their pocket, and maybe the management will be happy that some people in America bought their next album, but I don't expect miracles to happen just because of that.

[PumpkinPatches 48]

And if there were no illegal downloads available, would there be 10% of the fans willing to pay for their music? Would they even have overseas fans? This is one of those questions that has no right or wrong answer since it's all hypothetical, so I'll just let you ponder that.

 

 

If a band won't take the steps to cultivate a foreign fanbase, then of course they won't have people buying their music! Like we agreed, it's a very easy thing to do. Most bands are probably focusing all of their energy on the domestic market, so the question now becomes do they not know or do they not care? I think they don't care, because it would be a very big stretch to argue that any given visual kei band would know that other visual kei bands have overseas fans but they themselves know they do not.

 

Didn't you just say that bands avoid my country because of stringent Visa requirements? I don't think a few hundred people all over America buying Nokubura's next album is going to cause any real change one way or another. It'll be a little more cash in their pocket, and maybe the management will be happy that some people in America bought their next album, but I don't expect miracles to happen just because of that.

 

We definitely can debate whether or not there would be fans, but to be fair, fans have been able to find rare and hard-to-find stuff from obscure bands for years prior to MP3s and filesharing. It's how the genre began getting popular abroad. Yes, illegal downloading was a boom, but there were fans of DEAD END in the US back in the early 90s. My mother was one of them, and she only got cassettes from some tiny little store in Chinatown. They existed then, and they'll continue to exist.

 

And as for my experience (which may not be a lot to you, but I think it was pretty impressive) most bands are stunned when they realize how popular they are abroad, because they just don't know. They actually have no idea how many fans they have abroad. Mostly because you're right, they pay attention to their domestic fans, because the foreign fans don't make enough noise to be recognized. I followed a band for a year, and they were convinced I was the only foreign fan they had, until I actually told them to look up their English fanpage, with thousands of people excited about them and their new releases. 

 

And as for the US, yeah. I'd say you wouldn't be getting a tour any time soon (and I'm an American.) There's too much distance, too much of a pain in the ass with the visas, etc. But Europe? I think they have a better shot. So yeah, a few hundred singles sold may not be enough to get them to come tour next week, but you build up a fanbase that is loyal, and maybe you could have a D'espa tour. I mean, weirder shit's happened before. And if we try, they'll try to make us happy. It's baby steps.

[relentless 254]

We definitely can debate whether or not there would be fans, but to be fair, fans have been able to find rare and hard-to-find stuff from obscure bands for years prior to MP3s and filesharing. It's how the genre began getting popular abroad. Yes, illegal downloading was a boom, but there were fans of DEAD END in the US back in the early 90s. My mother was one of them, and she only got cassettes from some tiny little store in Chinatown. They existed then, and they'll continue to exist.

 

And as for my experience (which may not be a lot to you, but I think it was pretty impressive) most bands are stunned when they realize how popular they are abroad, because they just don't know. They actually have no idea how many fans they have abroad. Mostly because you're right, they pay attention to their domestic fans, because the foreign fans don't make enough noise to be recognized. I followed a band for a year, and they were convinced I was the only foreign fan they had, until I actually told them to look up their English fanpage, with thousands of people excited about them and their new releases. 

 

 

 

Two things I'd like to mention in regards to this post:

 

 

1. In regards to your comment ("but to be fair, fans have been able to find rare and hard-to-find stuff from obscure bands for years prior to MP3s and filesharing") -- the keyword here is "been able to find rare and hard-to-find stuff", which has to do with scarce product. There simply weren't many ways to find out about these VK bands, and the goods available were even more scarce than the resources of finding out about them. Tell me, in those days when people found these tapes did any of the bigger name VK bands: 1. Tour the States (or Europe) because of these second-hand sales? and 2. Did these bands profit from said second-hand purchases? The answer to both is no. Yes, people "found a way" to get music; but not only was this a fractional minority, it was one that had next to 0 impact on those bands at that time. Also note that the world has vastly changed since this time and those that actually went out looking for these tapes back in the "80's and 90's" were the select few that were passionate enough about the music to want to look in length for the music. Your average consumer (the ones that ultimately drive a majority of the sales) were not prepared to do this.

 

 

2. In regards to your comment ("most bands are stunned when they realize how popular they are abroad, because they just don't know. They actually have no idea how many fans they have abroad") - this is incredibly misleading because you're assuming a level of popularity that may or may not be there. Judging from venue size played in Japan by NB (650-700 person venues) not only is this ridiculous projection; but it could be an incredibly optimistic one as well. You have constantly mentioned that you are specifically talking about VK whenever someone brings up Western bands, so let's stick with Nocturnal Bloodlust that play in small clubs. Do you think that Nocturnal Bloodlust have a larger fanbase outside of Japan? Compare their fanbase with any 1 country (if you can) and let me know what you find. Could Nocturnal Bloodlust do a headlining tour of the US? The answer is no.

 

 

 

This hits on a greater point that I have been keeping note of. Any excuse can be presented to try and explain Piracy and its impact on Nocturnal Bloodlust; but based off of observation, that should be the last of their worries. Yes, music is TECHNICALLY a privilege. Since a family member of yours (Mother I believe? Sister? I forget, sorry) performs in Opera, I'm sure you could relate to the concept that music is art that we have the privilege to appreciate on higher levels (as Classical music is the very essence of this notion); but in regards to Pop music, this becomes less so when the primary drive for these bands (and yes, lesser bands such as Nocturnal Bloodlust as well) is marketability. For example: Nocturnal Bloodlust, seeking to make changes to their lack of popularity, didn't change the music they're writing; but instead changed their image....for marketability. Did piracy make Nocturnal Bloodlust change their image? No. Their music and lack of interest in regards to their music did -- for marketability.

 

 

 

Now, is this a failing of the consumer, or band? Is the consumer responsible for Nocturnal Bloodlust playing 600 person club shows, or is this the band's fault? It's self evident when you consider the reasoning above that piracy is not the main reason; but a lack of interest in the overall product. As I'm sure you know in the appreciation of Opera, if the role of The Queen of the Night in Mozart's Die Zauberflöte  can not perform the demanding falsettos required, people will not attend the performances due to the poor performance of the singer. This is the same with Pop (Popular) music: If people do not have any interest in a band, they will not attend their concerts, and thus the band will be playing to fewer and fewer people (in Popular music this can end a band/group/solo artist).

 

 

 

In sum: Due to your misleading "facts" and narrow interpretations, you are not seeing the entire picture here. Sure piracy has SOME impact on the archaic model of record labels (due to the very design of the old ways clashing with the new); but it can not be cited as the reason for a band's failings, especially when they have 99 other problems to worry about.

[Furik 832]

OT: I don't have any input into this discussion but I do have to say this is one of the most intelligent and well-debated conversations I've seen on MH in a long time without any chaotic slandering towards one another.

[PumpkinPatches 48]

Two things I'd like to mention in regards to this post:

 

 

1. In regards to your comment ("but to be fair, fans have been able to find rare and hard-to-find stuff from obscure bands for years prior to MP3s and filesharing") -- the keyword here is "been able to find rare and hard-to-find stuff", which has to do with scarce product. There simply weren't many ways to find out about these VK bands, and the goods available were even more scarce than the resources of finding out about them. Tell me, in those days when people found these tapes did any of the bigger name VK bands: 1. Tour the States (or Europe) because of these second-hand sales? and 2. Did these bands profit from said second-hand purchases? The answer to both is no. Yes, people "found a way" to get music; but not only was this a fractional minority, it was one that had next to 0 impact on those bands at that time. Also note that the world has vastly changed since this time and those that actually went out looking for these tapes back in the "80's and 90's" were the select few that were passionate enough about the music to want to look in length for the music. Your average consumer (the ones that ultimately drive a majority of the sales) were not prepared to do this.

 

 

2. In regards to your comment ("most bands are stunned when they realize how popular they are abroad, because they just don't know. They actually have no idea how many fans they have abroad") - this is incredibly misleading because you're assuming a level of popularity that may or may not be there. Judging from venue size played in Japan by NB (650-700 person venues) not only is this ridiculous projection; but it could be an incredibly optimistic one as well. You have constantly mentioned that you are specifically talking about VK whenever someone brings up Western bands, so let's stick with Nocturnal Bloodlust that play in small clubs. Do you think that Nocturnal Bloodlust have a larger fanbase outside of Japan? Compare their fanbase with any 1 country (if you can) and let me know what you find. Could Nocturnal Bloodlust do a headlining tour of the US? The answer is no.

 

 

 

This hits on a greater point that I have been keeping note of. Any excuse can be presented to try and explain Piracy and its impact on Nocturnal Bloodlust; but based off of observation, that should be the last of their worries. Yes, music is TECHNICALLY a privilege. Since a family member of yours (Mother I believe? Sister? I forget, sorry) performs in Opera, I'm sure you could relate to the concept that music is art that we have the privilege to appreciate on higher levels (as Classical music is the very essence of this notion); but in regards to Pop music, this becomes less so when the primary drive for these bands (and yes, lesser bands such as Nocturnal Bloodlust as well) is marketability. For example: Nocturnal Bloodlust, seeking to make changes to their lack of popularity, didn't change the music they're writing; but instead changed their image....for marketability. Did piracy make Nocturnal Bloodlust change their image? No. Their music and lack of interest in regards to their music did -- for marketability.

 

 

 

Now, is this a failing of the consumer, or band? Is the consumer responsible for Nocturnal Bloodlust playing 600 person club shows, or is this the band's fault? It's self evident when you consider the reasoning above that piracy is not the main reason; but a lack of interest in the overall product. As I'm sure you know in the appreciation of Opera, if the role of The Queen of the Night in Mozart's Die Zauberflöte  can not perform the demanding falsettos required, people will not attend the performances due to the poor performance of the singer. This is the same with Pop (Popular) music: If people do not have any interest in a band, they will not attend their concerts, and thus the band will be playing to fewer and fewer people (in Popular music this can end a band/group/solo artist).

 

 

 

In sum: Due to your misleading "facts" and narrow interpretations, you are not seeing the entire picture here. Sure piracy has SOME impact on the archaic model of record labels (due to the very design of the old ways clashing with the new); but it can not be cited as the reason for a band's failings, especially when they have 99 other problems to worry about.

 

I think you have some good points, but I still disagree with a vast majority of your ideas.

 

1. I never stated that I believed it to be possible for Nocturnal Bloodlust to tour any country other than Japan at the moment. That isn't a feasible option at the moment, because you are correct: They aren't big enough. However, that does not mean that the option of touring abroad isn't something the band is thinking about on a pretty real level. HOwever, before any band has the opportunity to tour (or even play a single show abroad) they need to worry about the financial aspect. And you're right; they aren't making enough sales at the moment, but I would state that they certainly have a growing fansbase. Maybe not this year or next year, but if they continue on their current path, I don't understand why it is so difficult to believe they could potentially go abroad.

 

We have bands like "BLOOD" and "LOKA" and even "The Sound Bee HD" that went on tour in a foreign countries, and I would go out of my way to state that their success had more to do with supply and demand that the music itself. We had very small bands being supplied by eager promoters (with less influence of management because they were small) and a high enough demand for 'visual kei' bands to supply a small band and give them the opportunity to tour. Now, take a band that has a bigger following (from the influx of forign followers on twitter, facebook, and the overall hype with most foreign fans to this band) and I would state there is a high possibility of roi. However, this is where management sees lack of sales abroad, and not the people. We know the fans exist, the management does not. And, given time, I would state that the band would grow in popularity and would be more feasible for a tour of some sort. However, management does not see that option.

 

Let's also be honest: at a lot of visual kei lives abroad, it has nothing to do with the band. That's sad, but it's true. It's very common for fans of visual kei to go to visual kei lives abroad because they are visual kei. That's, unfortunately, the sad state of the foriegn visual kei fandom.

 

Youre 100% right in stating that the current industry is flawed. That is why I think it is important to work with the industry and show that it is an viable option to reach out to a broader, more international audience. But because they don't have the demand,  they're not going to supply. 

 

As for Nocturnal Bloodlust and the 'art' of popular music, I would state that you're partially correct. You're correct in that Nocturnal Bloodlust changed their style. That's on them, fine. (I think this band and visual kei do not mix well, I'll admit that) But saying they don't have the market may be going a bit too far. I would state that interest in them is high enough for us to be debating the finer points of illegal downloading, of the numbers of people downloading and checking them out, or even youtube hits to at least be a slight measure on market potential. 

 

That's really what it seems we're debating about: Potential. Potential for sales, potential for international involvement, potential for money-making. 

 

I don't think the band is failing. I don't see that happening, because they just announced a new tour (in larger venues), a new album, they hit between 1-5 with all their latest releases on the indies oricon chart, and they have a lot of attention on them right now. This isn't about the band failing, because they're doing just fine in the domestic market. The issue is they are losing sales and selling opportunities abroad. They're losing in the international market not because the interest isn't there, but because it's easier and free to just illegally download. And, as I've previously stated, you're not going to get what you want until you have an active voice in the market. Continue to illegally download, and you're never going to get a voice.

 

I am not passing moral judgment on those who illegally download, but I think your reasoning is flawed in a business perspective. Because it obviously does affect the market enough for the band to actually say something about it, because they do want to branch out internationally. And they're not going to when they don't see any money in it. It's music business for a reason.

[lichtlune 915]

WALLS AND WALLS OF TEXT.

[PumpkinPatches 48]

Sorry. I wrote a 60 page thesis on visual kei marketing to the 'bangya culture' for my international business degree. I'm trying to be as concise as possible. I suck at it.

[Zeus 7997]

Let's also be honest: at a lot of visual kei lives abroad, it has nothing to do with the band. That's sad, but it's true. It's very common for fans of visual kei to go to visual kei lives abroad because they are visual kei. That's, unfortunately, the sad state of the foriegn visual kei fandom.

How is that a bad thing? We're small and scattered all over the world. Fans are supporting the small selection of bands that came to tour in their country. At least this way they can play to a room of people instead of just a handful.

 

As for Nocturnal Bloodlust and the 'art' of popular music, I would state that you're partially correct. You're correct in that Nocturnal Bloodlust changed their style. That's on them, fine. (I think this band and visual kei do not mix well, I'll admit that) But saying they don't have the market may be going a bit too far.

They didn't change their style at all. They were always an imitation of Suicide Silence, BMTH, and other types of metalcore/deathcore bands. All they changed was their looks. By moving into visual kei, they turned from a small fish in the sea to a big fish in a little pond. No one in visual kei does what they do and they figured it would be easier to attract attention that way. It's working...sort of. They're one of the only bands on here that have five solid pages of discussion dedicated to them, so I can't knock them completely.

[Shmilly 519]

Brief comment about foreign fans: the ratio of us gaijin at NB's Shinjuku BLAZE oneman last week seemed to me higher than usual. One of my friends even got into the meet and greet session for drawing a signed cheki. Those guys definitely know they have the beginnings of popularity overseas. Hell, as someone mentioned before about bands being as 'tech savvy' as us, if Masa is smart enough to tweet about piracy he already knows that these download links are on foreign sites and being downloaded outside of Japan. The interest is there.

 

And I don't want to start anything with nekkichi but that comment a few posts back about NB being mediocre even within the VK scene is just a bit of a dick point. Everyone is entitled to their own taste in music and if there's one thing I truly hate about fans it's their unfailing ability to trash talk anyone they don't listen to themselves. Seriously, I don't know why more people can't just enjoy the music they like and stop giving a damn what everyone else does. It's great when we can share enthusiasm about the ones we like, or even introduce someone to a new favourite, but there's no need to enter an argument about illegal downloading in relation to a band and say it's irrelevant because they're not even good. It's called taste, get over it.

 

Edit: Also the whole comparing bands to other bands thing. If people haven't listened to Suicide Silence, BMTH, before NB, why should they have any reason to think they are a 'copycat' band or imitating their style? Looking at VK being primarily a Japanese genre, I get that lots of Japanese listen to music from overseas, but that's no reason to imagine a VK fan listens to loads of Western metal too. I'm sure there are plenty of Japanese visual fans who listen almost entirely to VK and only find out about new bands through the VK scene. 

 

As for rsasai's abridged thesis, I can see a lot of good points in there. And since we are talking about VK in particular, it's fair to discuss the Japanese market. In Japan at least, I think the whole in-store bonus scheme actually does a lot of good. It invites fans to actually go to a brick-and-mortar store and buy a new release, and even get a little comment DVD (or even something like live or off shot footage). There's so many little indie stores in VK - Like an Edison, Jishuban Club, Little Hearts - that distributing extra goodies between them means the kind of fans in VK will go out of their way to get the member they like, or the best bonus, even buying more than one copy. Then there's in store events, which allow fans to actually talk to the bands they love and share their enthusiasm in person, and for anyone else stumbling into the store that's more word of mouth. 'Did you see that crazy bijuaru band in Tower Records yesterday? I think they were called Nocturnal Bloodlust or something.'

[nekkichi 6043]

Edit: Also the whole comparing bands to other bands thing. If people haven't listened to Suicide Silence, BMTH, before NB, why should they have any reason to think they are a 'copycat' band or imitating their style?

 

I'm going to break some news, but regardless of what one would see out of their window, the earth is not flat, and N.B. are neither good, nor even remotely original band.

 

vk bands have sourced and have stolen, but this is pretty much the first time when you take the language (and the drag) away, and what you hear with N.B. shows literally zero creative evolvement, compared to the scene that they have been inspired with.

considering I have been purposely ignoring the whole screamo/core nonsense while it lasted, I will add personal bias on top of their ingrained mediocrity, and this is where I will use the right to have my own opinion as a part of the argument. 

 

[Shmilly 519]

I will add personal bias on top of their ingrained mediocrity, and this is where I will use the right to have my own opinion as a part of the argument. 

 

I don't have a problem with your opinion, I'm just saying that it's not really a valid point to compare who is influenced by who and what one does or doesn't like when it comes to which bands 'deserve' recognition or popularity. And as rsasai said illegal downloading is illegal regardless of whose music you're not paying for, it doesn't matter if they're a 'good' band or not. NB have every right to uphold the copyright of their intellectual and artistic property, even if you think it's just a copycat of a different band.

 

And your point about originality is moot when, as you say, take away the visual aspect and NB are just a metalcore band much like any other in that particular subgenre. Of course bands are influenced by one another, it would be impossible for a group of musicians who had never listened to music to meet up and start a new genre. That doesn't make them any less original or worthy of support, just that they have chosen the style they choose to identify with.

 

I'm not trying to start any kind of argument, I just struggle to see how this kind of judgement and bias has any relevance to the discussion at hand. There's no reason why people can't enjoy the music they like without tearing into other groups for being unoriginal or mediocre.

[PumpkinPatches 48]

It seems like most of what you're saying, nekkichi, is based on the fact that you hate the band and their music. That doesn't matter, because we could be talking about any band and they would still have a right to speak about their music being illegally downloaded. 

 

I wonder if we would be having the same conversation if you didn't have this particular hatred for the band in question. No one here is forcing you to listen to the music (illegally downloaded or purchased) at gunpoint, so I think it's time to stop talking about the music they make and more about the point of the discussion.

[relentless 254]

 

 

 

As for Nocturnal Bloodlust and the 'art' of popular music, I would state that you're partially correct. You're correct in that Nocturnal Bloodlust changed their style. That's on them, fine. (I think this band and visual kei do not mix well, I'll admit that) But saying they don't have the market may be going a bit too far. I would state that interest in them is high enough for us to be debating the finer points of illegal downloading, of the numbers of people downloading and checking them out, or even youtube hits to at least be a slight measure on market potential. 

 

That's really what it seems we're debating about: Potential. Potential for sales, potential for international involvement, potential for money-making. 

 

I don't think the band is failing. I don't see that happening, because they just announced a new tour (in larger venues), a new album, they hit between 1-5 with all their latest releases on the indies oricon chart, and they have a lot of attention on them right now. This isn't about the band failing, because they're doing just fine in the domestic market. The issue is they are losing sales and selling opportunities abroad. They're losing in the international market not because the interest isn't there, but because it's easier and free to just illegally download. And, as I've previously stated, you're not going to get what you want until you have an active voice in the market. Continue to illegally download, and you're never going to get a voice.

 

I am not passing moral judgment on those who illegally download, but I think your reasoning is flawed in a business perspective. Because it obviously does affect the market enough for the band to actually say something about it, because they do want to branch out internationally. And they're not going to when they don't see any money in it. It's music business for a reason.

 

 

You missed my point when I discussed a distinction between Popular and Art music (I wasn't talking about the "Art of popular music", whatever that means). The point was to demonstrate the high appreciative standard in Art music which deems music as a "privilege" does not necessarily hold up in a lot of Popular music -- especially when the end goal is marketability (especially with image in Nocturnal Bloodlust's case). If someone is trying to market something to you, is it truly a privilege to listen to when it's being thrown in your face? I also said nothing about how NB "don't have the market". I believe there you are referencing the point I just reiterated which was the band pushed their new look for the sake of marketability (when previously as those more knowledgable on the band have said in this thread, their previous look wasn't doing anything for them).

 

 

And we're not necessarily arguing potential (I'm not at least). If you were to ask me about their potential, I would say they're a terrible, derivative band that has next to no potential for staying around much longer. But that's just my opinion on their music, not an assessment on their financial dealings. So while others may have shared an opinion on the band, I'm shying away from that kind of argument because it has too great of a chance of devolving into subjective opinions without any care for reason.

 

 

And you'll need to link me to where they have announced they are playing in larger venues, because I took all of the shows they have lined up on their website and went through them by capacity, all totaling to about 600-700 each. Nowhere is there any mention of anything to indicate otherwise, please provide a link if you can.

 

 

 

 

There is one thing that struck me, and what I find to be the focal point of your narrow interpretation of this situation: "They're losing in the international market not because the interest isn't there, but because it's easier and free to just illegally download."

 

 

At first glance this is blatantly incorrect. The reason why it's not entirely incorrect when in consideration of the whole is because there are people that will just download an album because it's free. There are those that can't be bothered to pay anything, and that's fine. But how many of those are even fans to begin with? How many are potential fans that want to hear the music first? How many are people who just want to rag on the band by downloading the album and shitting on it afterwards? There are many groups that need to be considered because it's not a black and white issue of "they're losing the international market because it's easier and free to illegally download". 1. They're NOT losing the international market because they're not even IN THE INTERNATIONAL MARKET. Their presence is literally unknown to everyone but a minority of those that listen to and follow Visual Kei. How can you be losing a market that you have LITERALLY 0 presence in? You can't, because they were never there to begin with. This is a failing of the band. If they're not marketed, how am I to know I can purchase their music in the US, or Europe? If you disagree, show me sales outside of Japan that indicate otherwise.

 

 

You can't argue that NB are losing sales and international market potential due to downloads, because to argue such you have to be ready to prove it with statistics. At that point you can argue that you THINK they MIGHT be losing potential; but due to the complex buying habits of individual persons, I would disagree with you. As mentioned above, how many of those downloads are from people that are curious and want to see if they like the music? how many are from people who want to give the band another chance and see if they're any good? how many are from people who genuinely like the band and want their new release for free? You don't know these things, and those are but 3 of the endless factors that take place when someone purchases an album.

 

 

I can only speak off of personal experience (and others can attest to this as well, I'm sure); but as others have said, many of those downloads could very well be of those that would not even buy their music in the first place, and perhaps don't even like the band. BUT, those downloads could also come from people who are curious about the music, and intend on paying for their goods if they like the band. I could easily inflate my argument to assume that those people (those that gain interest in the band, download, like them, and then begin supporting them) are the very refutation of your point that downloads are killing their market potential; but even I know that's not the whole picture. When I mentioned personal experience, I am referencing my large (and growing) collection of Classical that I have bought (and torrented). I recently picked up Kleiber's infamous recording of Wagner's Tristan und Isolde. I downloaded it first though, listened a few times, then purchased a physical copy. Why did I do this? Carlos Kleiber is dead along with many of the musicians that took part in that recording. They won't receive the money, so by logic I can argue I don't NEED to pay; but I did to show my furthering support (and Wagner Operas do not come cheap) of the music. In fact, most purchases have come this way where I wanted to listen to a recording before making a decision. I'm not saying that this is what everyone in the world that torrents does; but this is a group you have neglected in your assessment, and which I guarantee makes up a large portion of this community from the amount that have indicated this notion in the past.

 

 

In regards to ("but I think your reasoning is flawed in a business perspective. Because it obviously does affect the market enough for the band to actually say something about it,") - you can't argue this because you don't truly know. What if their record label is acting through them by proxy? Those more skeptical would indicate such, especially when you take into account the variety of bands that speak out about piracy, and in which in many of those cases, financial dealings have nothing to do with it.

 

 

tl;dr:   There are too many factors that are in place for you to make the argument that illegal downloads are responsible for the band's lack of market hold abroad. As I have indicated, that cannot be the case when 1. they don't have the presence in the international market that you think they do. 2. You are assuming an outdated argument that illegally downloading = huge impact to the band when in many cases (i.e. even big bands like Metallica) they don't see much, if anything, from CD profits (to make this argument you'd need to know how much NB make from record sales vs. merch and ticket sales). and 3. you are failing to take into account the complex buying habits of individuals.

 

 

If you can address points 1-3, and provide statistics as support for the claims on losing market potential, etc., then I will be thoroughly persuaded and will be driven to find out more about this issue. Until then, I still say you need to broaden your understanding seeing as how with points made above, it is far more complex than the black-and-white issue you're trying to draw it into.

 

 

 

 

Finally, please link me to your 60 page thesis if you can, I'd love to read it.

[nekkichi 6043]

It seems like most of what you're saying, nekkichi, is based on the fact that you hate the band and their music. That doesn't matter, because we could be talking about any band and they would still have a right to speak about their music being illegally downloaded.

 

you can refer to my third post in this thread for anything not concerning nocturnal bloodlust.

 

I wonder if we would be having the same conversation if you didn't have this particular hatred for the band in question. No one here is forcing you to listen to the music (illegally downloaded or purchased) at gunpoint, so I think it's time to stop talking about the music they make and more about the point of the discussion.

since you seem to love the fine art of demagoguery so much, I'm going to put it this way:

I have never ever said anyone was forcing me to listen to this band, but I will be listening to their music, pirated or purchased, if it did not suck.

On a side note, I'd love to see works cited for your thesis alone, 60 pages of stuff would require diving into market analysis that you seem to dismiss completely in your overly emotional way of handling conversation.

 

NB have every right to uphold the copyright of their intellectual and artistic property, even if you think it's just a copycat of a different band.

no questions about that, it's still not dismissing the whole "lol look who's talking" vibe of the situation.

 

That doesn't make them any less original or worthy of support, just that they have chosen the style they choose to identify with.

jsyk, I'm going to label you a possessed stan for the sake of convenience to wrap the creativity/originality point up;

 

regarding the support - this whole thread started because this band is not getting it and is publicly upset about that. plenty other bands are getting it despite business obstacles. piracy has not killed panic at the disco, who have been graciously used as an example by one of members here, who also have been a nobody band at some point. 

 

I'm not trying to start any kind of argument, I just struggle to see how this kind of judgement and bias has any relevance to the discussion at hand. There's no reason why people can't enjoy the music they like without tearing into other groups for being unoriginal or mediocre.

this band does not get good legal sales because their music is bland and mediocre and their fanbase hardly expands, not because Jorge, Svetlana, Punawit and Mateos have mediafired their discog. you seem to filter this point out of the thread completely, but I'll try to sneak it in again one last time.

musicians are not entitled to being successful commercially.

[miyuu 40]

about the last paragraph above but  @nekkichi you're missing the fact that good marketing stragedies play a role in being succesful at sales and not only how good is your music .
they do have every right to  their opinion. (and besides if the are wrong or right) i don't think it was a very smart way to handle  things for audience outside japan specifically.
it is probably more smart for example even the way you use your expressions and say things.
you could take advantage  the love they have for you and what they would be willing to do as fans  than to be agressive to them.  it may would be more convincing.
i do not really know though what should a band do .my job is not a manager

[nekkichi 6043]

 but  @nekkichi you're missing the fact that good marketing stragedies play a role in being succesful at sales and not only how good is your music .

please refer to my post # 3 in this thread.

I'm not attacking you or anything, but this thread has really turned into a looping broken record at this point.

[sai 868]

I agree with rsasai that CD sales can indeed be a big indicator whether or not a band decides (or their management, tbqh I have no idea who even makes the final call) to tour abroad. After all, if a band sees they've got quite a bit of CD sales in some part of the world, it might be worth it to tour there. CD sales do not make everything though; I've seen indie bands who play even smaller venues than Nocturnal Bloodlust come to Europe, bands that gathered audiences on a regular concert of only about 200-300 people in Japan (and only about 30-40 in Europe) and yet decided to tour this continent more than once. I'm pretty sure even less people in Europe bought the CDs of these bands than the amount of people who bought Nocturnal Bloodlust's latest release. Sure, these bands are cheaper to bring over, but hey, if bands like DIR EN GREY and the GazettE can be brought over (who are probably a lot more expensive than an indie band like NB), I doubt costs would be the main problem, even with these indie bands.

 

I consider piracy with visual kei fans a two-sided problem. First, you have the fact that a lot of visual kei fans do not buy the CDs of their so-called "favourite" VK band (whether or not you dislike that mentality isn't really relevant to my argument so I'm just letting this for what it is) because they feel like they're not the target audience anyway, and it's not something that will hurt them. AGAIN, THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL AND DOES NOT REPRESENT MY OPINION ON THE MATTER. I mean, if they really DID want to target the fans abroad, why do their official webshops not ship outside of Japan? Why are their releases only on the Japanese iTunes? Why do I have to order the CD from Japan and spend a fortune on shipping costs (and perhaps taxes and customs) to get that CD here while I could have free access to it with the click of a button? This isn't going to hurt the band! If they really wanted to target me, they'd attempt to reach out more! Why would I put money into something that's only going to be used for promotion in Japan?

 

The other side is that the slight amount of people who DO buy CDs do not make up enough people for the band to take their audience abroad seriously. I've read a couple of band interviews where VK bands were confronted with the question of how they felt about having fans abroad. Some of them seemed suprised, others said "oh that's nice I guess". For my hypothesis NB is actually a really good example because they seem to be willing to come abroad. They put their music on other countries' iTunes stores, they have an official YT channel that ISN'T restricted to Japan alone and some of the members even tweet in English. "Why don't our fans see this, we're trying!" Like in my personal opinion I think NB is a terrible band but that doesn't take away the fact that they are trying. So on one side you've got fans thinking they aren't reaching out enough, on the other side the band thinking that they DID do enough.

 

The current business model is outdated and forms a big part of this problem. There are plenty of things bands could do next to what they're doing now to promote themselves more to foreign audience if they actually wanted to/could. NB wants to, we've seen it in their efforts. They could, smaller indie bands with less sales have done it without going bankrupt. What's stopping them? The amount of people who download their stuff? Like Zess said, how many people would've actually bought your CD if they hadn't found out about you through illegal downloads in the first place? This doesn't take away the fact that it's still illegal and that fans should definitely chip in where/if they can (and if they don't, they're just a pretentious freeloader), but the music business needs to evolve and use piracy to their advantage instead of desperately trying to fight it. This band has every right to speak up about something that is illegal and "fans" who feel offended but never actually buy something even though they could buy it as a luxury (and then I mean that you have everything necessary provided for) should really stop being so incredibly entitled. On the other hand, NB can't expect to sell tons of albums abroad because a) the attitude of many vk fans is completely opposite of theirs and b ) not enough people enjoy their music.

 

But for the love of god, if you really enjoy this band and you can afford it, buy that fucking new album they're releasing is2g.

 

sorry if this is too long and makes no sense but i hope you guys sort of get what i mean whoops