La:Sadies/Dir en grey and bassists.

[shiroihana 182]

So I've been watching La:Sadie's videos on Youtube, and I couldn't help but notice all of the KISAKI vs Toshiya comments. Many people over there really do not like KISAKI and the two bassists are often compared (obviously in Toshiya's favor). 

 

I chose to write this thread because I was genuinely curious whom the community feels is a better bassist over a medium where I could more hopefully gauge productive conversation. We all know that KISAKI is a shit person, and that's not what I'm aiming to talk about in this thread. I'm simply curious to know which La:Sadie's/Dir En Grey member is better on a technical and creative level, or any other relevant metric to discern proficiency. 

 

Now first of all, KISAKI has been a professional bassist since the early 90s, and has played bass consistently. I believe he is quite good on a compositional level, I've always enjoyed his style of visual kei. I think he is a good example of what you look for in a visual kei bassist, loud and harmonic playing. He plays the bass like a bass, not like an electric guitar, and he wants you to hear him. 

 

Toshiya plays a completely different style of music - although I have to to admit, I haven't really listened to much of Dir En Grey's recent stuff so I can't offer much of my own opinion on Toshiya's playing, but I hear he's gotten real good over the years (which of course makes sense, given that he's been playing bass for such a prominent band for over two decades now). KISAKI on the other hand probably hasn't dramatically improved in quite a while.

 

I'm sure many of you who have listened to both artists can offer much better insight than me, and I'd love to read it. Finally, I'm also aware that some people aren't too fond of threads like these, but I'm hoping there will be some decent and insightful conversation so let's see how this goes.

Edited May 31, 2019 by shiroihana

[nekkichi 6043]

paging @Seelentau  x

[Zeus 7997]

I'm going to have to go with Toshiya. Toshiya's rhythm is Dir en grey's heart and soul and a lot of the reason why the band sounds so good. I've never felt that kind of connection or groove from any of Kisaki's bands, but Kisaki can play a mean bass. It's really dependent on whose playing style you like more.

[WhirlingBlack 1043]

Kisaki has a very easily identifiable style of playing, you can instantly hear it's him, but I think it might be because he hasn't really developed all that much as a bassist since the 90s. 

[Seelentau 884]

1 hour ago, nekkichi said:

paging @Seelentau  x

As I have no ear for music, I wouldn't be able to say who's better/more versatile/whatever in a thousand years.

All I can do is note that Toshiya was the support-guitarist for D+L for a year or so, if that could mean anything.

[secret_no_03 959]

I'd have to go with Kisaki and that's coming from someone who's been a fan of both UCP and DIR EN GREY concurrently for fifteen years. I personally don't see anything special about Toshiya and there are plenty better than the both of them.

[nekkichi 6043]

1 hour ago, Seelentau said:

All I can do is note that Toshiya was the support-guitarist for D+L for a year or so, if that could mean anything.

i think it means a lot!

[psychonnect_rozen 585]

Toshiya by far. He was just in the band longer. His bass playing is probably the most unique and the best in band I have ever seen. One of my favourite VK musicians.

 

Kisaki on the other hand is honestly just generic. Listening to old La Sadies songs, his bass is, for a lack of a better term, boring. It does not have the kind of charm that bassists usually have. Every bass line he plays sounds the same honestly. Even though I do like some of his later bands like Syndrome and Phantasmagoria, I usually love the vocals and the guitars in those bands. While the bass in some of their songs can be ok, they’re nothing special. It’s different than Diru where I pretty much enjoy every members playing style

 

I know I may seem biased but I was never a huge Kisaki fan. I’m sure you can guess why.

Edited July 23, 2019 by psychonnect_rozen

[Lestat 2167]

I personally can’t say much for Toshiya; I have no clue what he has written for Dir en grey musically, but he is ultimately the better choice for the band. I can’t see them switching positions, say Toshiya in Phantasmagoria and Kisaki in Dir en grey for instance. Perhaps for the first two albums of the latter, but the more industrial and nu-metal styles Dir en grey later adopted aren’t for Kisaki. 

 

I have to agree on Kisaki, not merely out of bias but for his unmistakeable style of playing and composing. He has written an absolute bulk load of memorable music by himself – both for his own bands as well as others. Purely listening to it with a musical ear I would choose him, he has produced both quantity and quality alike in numbers most artists can’t lay a hand on. Notoriety aside, he’s a fantastic addition to Japanese rock as a whole and helped shape modern Visual kei like no other. 

Edited May 31, 2019 by Lestat

[Karma’s Hat 3107]

11 minutes ago, Lestat said:

He has written an absolute bulk load of memorable music by himself – both for his own bands as well as others.

This is why I have to go with Kisaki as well. His songs are unmistakable even when his liberally borrowing from Laputa or something, and it's not just one band but like a dozen. 

 

Both Deg and Kisaki's ouvre are towering figures in vk in their own ways, but Toshiya by himself isn't so it's not even a difficult choice here.

[saiko 429]

Regarding Toshiya, I feel I have a lot of wonderful stuff to say. But, in the other hand, I haven't listened to Kisaki in a while, so in order to make an impartial comparison between them I'm gonna listen to Kisaki's bands right now. Read you later!

[emmny 4139]

Toshiya can play circles around pretty much anyone...his counter melodies in DEG's older stuff is insane, beyond that of standard old school bassists who lived for some melodic basslines. Until you hear people trying toshiya's gig do you realize how well he does it...Hisame from Grieva sounds sloppy doing similar stuff, and so do most other post-2010s bassists trying to do similar. Cage, Zakuro, etc have intricate basslines that would otherwise sound really 'cluttery', but Toshiya has a really good ear for complementing vocal and guitar melodies without overwhelming the overall mix. I'm not a mago fan, but listening to their stuff, Kisaki's style is pretty similar to other good bassists from 90s bands (Isuke from Lamule, Hiderou from Lamiel).

 

I think Toshiya and Kisaki's early styles are related more as a function of the era they played in...Ray  (ex. NEGA) did similar basswork into the 2000s, and he had an old school flair with his frills and lead lines. Tomo (emmuree) also has a similar style, but they just sound 90s anyway...so maybe a funny comparison. 90's vk has a certain rhythm...which requires a certain kind of bassist to pull off, so I think everyone kinda learned to play like that because it was trendy--usually close to a post-punk/gothic/new wave template with added melody.

 

Toshiya's more recent basswork has more to do with texture , tone and percussion than melodic rhythms; he has changed a lot as a bassist, and he's not interested in doing the crazy bass runs/solos from gauze era and stuff. I think comparing from the same era makes more sense, because now Toshiya and Kisaki's styles are basically unrelated.

Edited May 31, 2019 by emmny

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

The bass line in "Cage" and "Moon-light-dance" are some of the best melodic bass passages in the whole scene.

 

 

I don't listen to modern Diru, so I cannot attest to how Toshiya sounds now but I imagine he does whatever prog-sludge-kyopera-metal thing they do pretty well.

 

Mago and later Kisaki, I feel, isn't really known for being a bass wizard? He's more known for general atmosphere and musical aesthetic that's undeniably his, or inspired (read: ghost-written / "produced") by him (I think someone described it here as a "magical forest" feel in a review). I don't hold any Lin songs in high regard specifically for the bass work, but that doesn't mean he's a bad player.

 

I hold Mana in a similar regard: I don't think he's a shredder like Hizaki or Leda, but I like his music more for the whole composition.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Peace Heavy mk II