The cost/economics of being in a VK band

[Masato 365]

Ok, so I am a very stingy person and there have been only 2 bands I really spent my  money on in Japan so far.

So where does my cheki money go?

Fortunately Masato has done an informative post, but what do you think about that?

 

MV ~ 500.000 ¥

Costumes ~ 700.000¥

Foto shooting ~ 100.0000¥

CD pressing ~ 100.000¥

Recording ~ 100.000¥

Hair styling ~ 1x 20.000¥

Studio ~ 1x 10.000¥

Travel cost ~ 200.000¥

Flyer/print ~ 100.000¥

Website 150.000¥

 

Some things seem realistic and some a bit expensive.  He does not say for which time periode though.  The website hosting probably for a year.

What do you think?

Edited December 13, 2018 by Masato

[libertine 125]

.

Edited December 12, 2019 by libertine

[Kiryu999 3336]

If these costs are true idk how bands that played in front of 30 people can manage to find that much money

[Komorebi 2193]

2 hours ago, Kiryu999 said:

If these costs are true idk how bands that played in front of 30 people can manage to find that much money

They don't, which is why they don't last long.

[evenor 1655]

For anyone who understands Japanese, Itsuki (ex. vocalist of Bergerac) has made a series of vids regarding VK costs.

Edited December 13, 2018 by evenor

[Zeus 7997]

Let's also not forget about some more explosive outbursts like Ryohei from Kyogetsu. I wrote about it here if you want some more details, but safe to say that it's an open secret that going visual kei is a money pit and it can be seen as shameful to discuss it brazenly.

Because I'm not Japanese, I took the time to convert the yen into freedom and equality units.

 

MV ~ 500.000 ¥ / $4,400.67 / €3,882.55

Costumes ~ 700.000¥ / $6,160.86 / €5,435.49

Foto shooting ~ 100.000¥ / $880.12 / €776.49 

CD pressing ~ 100.000¥ / $880.12 / €776.49 

Recording ~ 100.000¥ / $880.12 / €776.49 

Hair styling ~ 1x 20.000¥ / $176.06 / €155.31

Studio ~ 1x 10.000¥ / $88.01 / €77.65 

Travel cost ~ 200.000¥ / $1760.59 /  €1,553.43

Flyer/print ~ 100.000¥ / $880.12 / €776.49 

Website 150.000¥ / $1,320.47 /  €1,164.82

Total: $17427.14 / €15,372.22

Some of these numbers should be interpreted carefully. I added up all the values, so the true cost of hair styling and studio isn't reflected here because those are repeated over and over again. For the studio, is this cost per hour or per session? It's way more expensive if it's $88 an hour. I also find that the expenses for hair styling are pretty expensive relative to what it should cost, so I wonder if this is a compound cost or an estimation of some sort. I also assume somethings like flyer / print, CD pressing, and photo shoots include the costs not just to produce the medium but to pay for the services and distribution. Something similar for the website too; I doubt most of these guys are doing all the maintenance work for it, so they probably pay someone to keep it up for them. A thousand dollars for a website doesn't make sense. A thousand dollars to create an interactive and impressive website quickly is still too much. But to do all that and keep it maintained makes sense. Travel costs include not just plane tickets, but moving all of the musical equipment and paying the roadies to do it for you. I wonder if these costs are per band member or costs for all members as a whole, which could explain some of these high costs. I don't think this is everything, because I've heard stories about how bands have to front money in order to be able to perform. I don't know how true this is, but I've heard about it more than once, especially when bands have to front the difference if attendance was below projected amounts. There's nothing here about the cost to perform concerts or produce merchandise. And finally, I don't think the band is paying all of the costs, just a majority of it. So I'm comfortable saying that for your average band, the label would front about 30% and the band members together would front the remaining 70%. So the new adjusted total is:

Total: $12,199.00 / €10,760.40

 

If I were to pretend that I was a visual kei musician, and I was in charge of budgeting for my band, and we had to make some hard choices about what we could afford and not afford, I'd honestly take a look at the hair styling and costume costs, the studio costs, and the photo shoots. I think the hair styling is egregiously expensive for no real reason, compounded by the fact that it would be multiple visits. I'd only get my hair done when I absolutely need to and show up to the studio and to record looking like a regular guy. I'd try to do band practice somewhere cheaper, because those $90 visits add up fast. Travel cost is non-negotiable. Photo shoots can double for both cheki and promotional materials, so I think that's the cost of doing business. The cost of the costumes is right about where I expected it to be if you budget for five people, and budget considering every time you record a new release you have a new look. But costumes put the visual in visual kei, so it is hard to argue to take them out. I honestly would have to argue if costumes should cost more than the music video, and would try to find some way to put even more money into those, because that also puts the visual in visual kei, and shoot for making less music videos overall if I can keep each one to a higher standard of quality. I honestly don't know how much of a presence a website would give my band at the start, and would probably double down on traditional social media tools at first to go viral and cheapen costs there, or maybe latch on to my label's bigger website and push that way. Or maybe both, because more exposure doesn't hurt and word of mouth is free. I'd also be the ultimate cheap and lazy bastard and press all my CDs themselves to start, and then distribute them at lives. 

Overall, I can understand a bit better how difficult it can be to get started if the funds aren't green. 

[LIDL 692]

The record labels usually funds that expense and they will took bigger part of thw profits after. That is why plenty  bands are forced to disband by recording labels because they are not selling and the labels not willing to spend anymore dime on them.

[sleepy coffee 1476]

If record labels help cover some expenses how do bands like kizu, dimlim, and mamireta start off. They're the only bands on their label so it seems like they are their own label as far as I can tell

[platy 3018]

^good question, where does the funds come from in the first place? 

 

And can we assume that if a band has been going for a while, it means they're making over €15k (going by Zeus' estimate) per release...? 

[GreatNorthernVK 183]

A handful of band men might have parents that are willing to fork over some $ for their son’s dream. Not sure *how* common it is, though.

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

$12,000 ~ $18,000 seems like a reasonable assumption, plus there may be additional fees for hosting shows (idk if this is different if you're invited to play at a venue), having your CDs distributed, instrument repair, and actual travel costs of touring (hotel, food, gas, public transit, and damage that ensue as a result of moving heavy instruments around).

 

I've read that some labels and venue owners do "favors" for small and up-and-coming bands and cover a lot of fees, but as a result they have to perform at their specific live-house or repay their debts + interest (I think this was covered in ~that article~ about the vkei industry). That also explains why a lot of bands always perform in the city they formed in, unless they completely relocate (e.g. Sui moving to Tokyo to perform as David). 

Edited December 13, 2018 by Peace Heavy mk II

[Masato 365]

Well, if you devide 15.000€ by 5 that makes 3000€ per member.

The band does make money by selling merch and cheki! It is not uncommon for fans to spend 50-100€ on chekis per live. So they can get this amount of money, but basically they will not get rich on band money alone.

 

These guys are not on a label, so these are do-minor expenses! I do think it covers the cost of a longer time frame though.

 

Even if some costs appear high to us, you have to consider that it's japan!

Some services are really expensive there like fan flowers, so 100€ for an easy hair styling is believable.

[BrenGun 2261]

I doubt it's that much.

 

 

haha,

 

my friend

 

 

if we add a cost of 1 day

10,000 yen × num band members & staffs

So in Japan, Using DTM to ray off members from band of idol.

[Zeus 7997]

6 hours ago, chipathy said:

If record labels help cover some expenses how do bands like kizu, dimlim, and mamireta start off. They're the only bands on their label so it seems like they are their own label as far as I can tell

Here is one way:

 

1. Start band and label. Apply for a loan to fund label. Can be bank, can be from a sempai, can be from parents, etc.

2. Budget real good.

3. Use some label funds for band activities. Use profits from band activities to pay back those internal loans.

4. Bust ass working hard doing your day and night jobs.

 

 

If you do it right, you could earn back the money you put into your band to pay off the first loan, and then your label is ready for the next step. I suspect these bands that run their own label are also putting up personal money to fill the gap.

[sleepy coffee 1476]

Ah that would make sense and I guess in a best case scenario u would hope after busting out that first release and first few shows merch etc etc that u can have a snowball effect funding future projects and whatnot 

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

1 hour ago, Zeus said:

Here is one way:

 

1. Start band and label. Apply for a loan to fund label. Can be bank, can be from a sempai, can be from parents, etc.

2. Budget real good.

3. Use some label funds for band activities. Use profits from band activities to pay back those internal loans.

4. Bust ass working hard doing your day and night jobs.

 

 

If you do it right, you could earn back the money you put into your band to pay off the first loan, and then your label is ready for the next step. I suspect these bands that run their own label are also putting up personal money to fill the gap.

Alternative: hide profits because taxes are optional, sell physical copies of selfies, befriend every other label-head so your groups are a special guest at every big event, write 4~6 songs with the intention of having your signed bands use them and then modify the melodies slightly for each ghost-written instance, have every band signed to you appear in every vkei publication, then get caught in a sex scandal and hope you're picked up by a reality TV outlet once you're done getting meToo'd.

 

#matina101

Edited December 14, 2018 by Peace Heavy mk II

[Duwang 676]

8 hours ago, chipathy said:

If record labels help cover some expenses how do bands like kizu, dimlim, and mamireta start off. They're the only bands on their label so it seems like they are their own label as far as I can tell

Kizu, Dimlim, and Mamireta are all in completely different situations.

 

Kizu has their own label, but they didn't start from scratch. Lime and Reiki (mostly Lime) were already well established musicians so I doubt money was ever an issue for them.

 

Mamireta is on a label, Punch Records, which is a sublabel of Forum aka the label Mejibray was on. They are not the only band on Punch records, KRAD is on there as well. Sounds like they self-produced their first two releases and distributed them through Like An Edison before being signed, so I'm gonna assume they pulled money together and/or took out a loan. (Taking out loans is super easy in Japan from what I've heard) 

Now money is clearly not an issue.

Dimlim is self-produced. They don't have a label, they do everything themselves and Retsu kind of acts like a leader/manager since Issei got the boot. If you're thinking Ong distribution is their label, it is not. Ong is a distribution company through which arists without labels can put their music in CD shops throughout Japan. Gallo self-produced and distributed their music through Ong for years before being signed by Terakoya. 
I'm going to assume they, too, pooled money together/took out a loan when they first started and got a lot of help from Issei who has a lot of band experience.

[sleepy coffee 1476]

Dimlim has some label named DUM from what i can tell but yeah everything you said makes sense 

[Duwang 676]

1 minute ago, chipathy said:

Dimlim has some label named DUM from what i can tell but yeah everything you said makes sense 

That's not their label. They just released Chedoara under that name. They released The Silent Song and Various under "Ultimate Illuminati".

For comparison, Gallo released a lot of their music under エンペラーレコード (Emperor Records) when they weren't signed.

[sleepy coffee 1476]

ahh ok thanks for the clarification 

[BrenGun 2261]

15 hours ago, Zeus said:

If you do it right, you could earn back the money you put into your band to pay off the first loan, and then your label is ready for the next step. I suspect these bands that run their own label are also putting up personal money to fill the gap.

 

And that's what bandman shouldn't forget.
Even being in a VK band means you also have to put in own money to keep your band alive. And not everything what you do get's paid. 

Being a bandman should be a hobby something you love to do, whenever you get rich from it or not. And hobbies do cost own money. That's life that's how it is.

 

Of course it's interesting how much it really costs, you can come up with a list from the costs but then proof it with real prices, the prices you really paid for something. Yet, showing off like this bandman did, kinda tells me "pay us dammit or otherwise we need to quit with the band" 

 

[Masato 365]

Actually I think it's ok to post these things. Honestly, japanese fans spend soooo much money on merch and chekis at the lives, often 5000¥, 10.000¥ and up, so yeah, i kind of want to know where my money goes and have an estimate how my band is doing financially  (estimating the risk of a break-up lol)

 

And merch/cheki have such inflated prices... (7000¥ for a xl shirt for 8B-SP 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣)

 

So I feel cheated when I buy it! 

It helps to explain where the money goes. 

 

500¥ cheki = 100¥ production cost and 400¥ wins without taxes

 

some bands charge 1000¥ per cheki, so 900¥ winnings here

[nekkichi 6043]

the kiii of music artists avoiding the costs of instruments and wigs/weaves that probably cost a fucking ton on top of the stylist appointment estimate posted nnnnn

[Masato 365]

5 minutes ago, nekkichi said:

the kiii of music artists avoiding the costs of instruments and wigs/weaves that probably cost a fucking ton on top of the stylist appointment estimate posted nnnnn

Satsuki had a naruto hadband photoshopped on him! 

Do you even know the license fee for photoshop?!? 

No wonder he has no money left for anything else....

[nekkichi 6043]

2 minutes ago, Masato said:

Satsuki had a naruto hadband photoshopped on him! 

Do you even know the license fee for photoshop?!?

ummmm like $10???