Pretsy

"Tone deaf" or not (debatable whether @Xetem meant the certain form of amusia or another lazy criticist cliche), what Kyo has lacked for these years is the amount of stamina needed for these studio efforts which otherwise required many tries to get desired results right. However, as we know (possibly), Kyo's position can be defended as follows:
 
1) Kyo doesn't do "midriff/diaphragm growls" only - he is still incorporating "incorrect, damaging" grunting he has been doing on MOAB in his latest cookie monster moments. Name at least a couple of artists (no, not retarded picks akin to Dani Filth or Mike Patton with similar issues) who managed to save at least 50 % of their stamina for somewhat okay high-key singing (how I'd describe Kyo during specific parts) while meddling with these damaging grunts etc.
 
2) Kyo's trademark squeals (once again, the "damaging" mix of vibrato'd whistle register, deranged screaming and shouting) require precice focusing and "allocation" of your stamina unlike traditional screams (if you do them "correctly")...and do you expect him to be always aware of when to focus on getting his fry screaming or tenor belting right?
 
3) If you ever noticed from Dir's usual setlists, he gets no proper, long "breathing pauses" for his next set of deranged growling/screaming - singing ballads are merely brief and still require a lot of straining from Kyo's vocalcraft (even the simplest effort arrangement-wise "Un Deux" is not that easy to emulate), and for the most part they are beefed inbetween crazy studio-focused numbers. Can you really blame him or the band in overall for such choice then?
 
So all in all, I am not sure what Xetem is trying to get at with cliched manifest a la "Kyo sucks, he is the weakest link" we have been hearing for a decade or perhaps even more if we consider long-time weebs like myself *clears throat*. Yes, he might be doing his techniques "incorrectly" in a variety of ways, technically speaking. However, would "musically correct approach" improve or actually damage Dir's art and practice of "gender-bending, varied vocal magic" as it has been known among various, open-minded music journo circles? Blaming Kyo for not being able to adapt "99%" (as WB said) to the BAND choices of multi-tracking, dubbing and "one chance, one take"-efforts (e.g. Kyo's freakout during Red Soil etc.) makes any astute, but still respecting listener question your otherwise very conflicting role here.
 
I am not trying to raise my "BTFO" card here but I wonder - what are you getting at exactly? Do you acknowledge the fact that most of your proofs are merely preaching to the choir? Do you know that we have learned not to mind these minor mistakes in his atypical vocal palette? Are you legitimately trying to adopt classical/conservatory-tier music principles on assessing the ALTERNATIVE/EXPERIMENTAL BAND (which was supposed to be  a standard vk fare at first)?
 
Would really love to derail this discussion and go for "where they'd go next"-kind of topic for the nth time, but as always - last.fm snobism is always present here...

I like that the person who, without anything even resembling a coherent analysis, arrived at the exact statement of Kyo being unable to hit notes "99%" of the time, is using "proof" as their main source of argument.
 
Tip for next time, try to not use ridiculous exaggerations yourself if you want people to take your complaints seriously, especially if you want to back them up by facts at a later point. It just makes the original point you're trying to make distasteful even to people who might've been inclined to agree with you to a certain extent.
 
I have some more shocking revelations to deliver to you in case you want to dig some more dirt about the band: Sometimes Kyo uses overdubbed vocals (up to four tracks at once in some parts), sometimes they have more than two guitar parts playing at once in studio tracks which might result in some stuff sounding "trimmed" in a live setting or missing certain things (just in case you want to tell us that Kaoru and Die can't play their parts properly either at a later point, I mean, a real musician would obviously play two guitars at once.). Even more shockingly, sometimes they do things in several takes in a studio (contrary to  "popular belief" it's not done in one take!) so due to human nature a note or two might actually be off sometimes during live performances. This is not exclusive to Dir en grey though, in fact it's common practice in almost every single band, and from this we should arrive at the conclusion that "99%" of the time most musicians can't perform their instruments and should probably just stay in the studio and not perform concerts.
 
Or we just stop making stupid sensationalist posts intended to rile up fights and try to discuss things without hyperboles instead. But for some reason Dir en grey always seems to attract people who enjoy that kind of things.
 

you're literally in a forum primarily dedicated to visual kei

Remember to shake hands properly, look into their eyes and smile a lot! I hope it goes great!
 
(EDIT: I mean... I did those things, said some idiotic stuff and blabbered like I always do when I am nervous and was just plain awkward. Aaaand I got into a school, their loss. ;PPPP)
 
I... think I have a date on saturday. 

fuck you @Carmelzors, I just gone done writing this big-ass post to see you've already posted.  Imma post it anyways, and then read what you've got to say afterwards, so know this post was written without having read yours first!
 
Ya know, It's funny because I think that @Pho, @WhirlingBlack, and @hiroki 's points about outside opinions have been proven - not directly through their arguments, but by simple virtue of them openly engaging in this conversation. Even if I don't agree with their outlooks, by sharing our separate arguments - I think this discourse has allowed all parties to become more aware of our different points of contention, and opened our perspectives a bit. I think this is part of what they were getting at all along, and as evidenced by emmny's post (which ppl from all sides of the debate have liked), there has been some extent of mutual understanding reached. So while I still stand by my words and feel like the opinions of outsiders should not eclipse the opinions of the oppressed in question, I can certainly appreciate the prospective value of those outside opinions. 
 
This is a LOADED topic, and one that can get emotional and touchy quick. My posts have definitely been fraught with anger and frustration, but I'm glad that we could hold such a heated discussion without getting too catty about it. It's been unexpectedly cathartic for me, and there is a certain beauty to being able to discuss these things with people from literally all over the planet, all with different backgrounds and ideologies. So I apologize if I made anyone feel as if their opinion is unwanted, but in less angry terms than I stated earlier, I do think that when engaging with a topic this dense, we all have to humble ourselves to each other and respect the different perspectives at play - difficult as it can be. So with that in mind, rest assured that I've no hard feelings towards @Carmelzors, @WhirlingBlack, @Pho, or @hiroki. If anything, it's a good thing you guys are taking part in this conversation, because there are many who are too scared to, can't be bothered to, or simply refuse take part in it, and many others who don't even recognize it as an actual discussion.
 
Also, bless @emmnyfor his post. I think he succinctly communicated what I had trouble trying to articulate in the last few posts. If I were to try and sum up what it feels like to be black in America, I'd describe it as follows. It's like a catch22 of sorts.  I wasn't born into world thinking "i am black, this is my identity. this is who i am". I still don't think that either. I'm just a human being with thoughts, hopes, dreams, fears..with an identity, same as anyone else. But unfortunately, we've been thrust into this silly racial game. Nobody asked to play this game. Black people didn't wake up one day say "you know what? let's create some racial tension for shits and giggles!"

I like how @Pho described race as an "arbitrary identity factor" - and it is. Race is literally a man-made concept. So all of this racial strife...this "game" is complete and utter, divisive bullshit. But the problem is that for black Americans, this game is unavoidable. Imagine being trapped inside of a video game, but knowing that a world exists outside of that video game, and that you're not the one controlling the game. Even if you try to ignore the fact that you're in the game and go about living your life, you're still in the game at the end of the day. So what do you do? When you try to speak out to the controllers of the game - when you point out all of the racism and injustice - it only serves to antagonize and further perpetuate the game.  

This is basically what being black in America feels like. Forced to play a game you don't want to. Even if you try to ignore it, the system still sees you as "black". I don't like calling myself black. I don't get off from doing that. It does literally nothing for me. I just want to be a normal human being like everybody else. "white privilege" comes into play when you realize that for the most part, white people can enter and exit this metaphorical game at will. The system recognizes them as individuals. Me on the other hand, no matter what I do and no matter who I choose to be, I'm still appended to this bullshit idea of "black". And if you want to make matters even worse, there are many black AND white in people in America who don't even realize they're in this crappy, antagonistic racial game. They're perfectly content being soulless sprites, living as they're programmed to. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms...

I'm rambling at this point, but I do enjoy discussing this. Maybe we should just make a seperate thread? aha.
 

First and most of all, I still fail to see that how I gave @Zeusand @CAT5an impression of handling American matters "much better" than actual inhabitants with experience and whatnot (i.e. "knowitall" and "expert"-attitude). As those hints in my comments already say - there is a big difference when I DICTATE and when I SUGGEST (please do feel free to point out where are such hints). At this point we, non-American MH participants, attempt to facilitate the atmosphere of cooperation here - to outline the discussion for catering various aspects in order to get the bigger picture together  - what is truly going on? Of course, as it was mentioned above, there are no immediate solutions available at the moment. Yes, we definitely lack on-site experience in terms of current events. However, generally saying things like "you have it much easier there due to your race" or similar stuff is
 
1) Dismissing possible BG information about said person's nationality and ethnicity (since racism touches these subjects as well, FYI). Sure, I didn't expect Zess to read my bio like an open book since we are not that familiar with each other but this move is nonetheless guaranteed to rub your partner in conversation the wrong way. I ain't the victim of institutionalized racism, no - but even so, as the person of ethnicity different (and looked down upon) from my country fellows, I can say that I at least "get the gist" of it. Therefore, let's just stop personal addressing and "HA! You said this back in the day"-kind of accusation and assess the merit of our arguments instead.
 
And if we lump this "you live abroad so you just stay away from our business"-rhetoric here as well, it's also
 
2) Shutting your partners out. Don't exclude - but explain, guide, debate...make the progress if you want us to understand! It doesn't help at all if you find our positioning potentially hurtful and consequently shut us out from your matters. As a global, worried community we are equally worried and willing to help you discover the "right path" . Isolating us from specific topics is just...not exemplary nor helpful for our esprit de corps:  we have this shared spirit of J-enthusiasm and it would really suck if it all went away due to such "cloaking".
 
None of us wants you to close your ears and eyes to the potential plethora of choices and literally follow the idiom of "fighting fire with fire", which is really, really, REALLY NOT recommended if you strive for radical changes in racism or any form of complex, prejudice-driven interaction from its institutionalized to its "milder" form (since it cannot vanish, unfortunately). As such, it's advised in the meanwhile to address other frightening realities of today's plethora of events TOGETHER - even if your partners in conversation seem to be really "out of touch" or "biased" about them - be it militarization of police forces; questionable, almost illogical status of amendments; the lack of direct "channels" between the gov and citizens; "bandwagoning"/"witch-hunting" and so on.
 
This may not be of course the wordbook definition of "solution" , but it would at least help to settle some things and avoid the large-scale, social catastrophe. The worst fate for any country is basically the "implosion" - the moment when citizens from different blocks start antagonizing each other and bear very radical intentions to "break the system" (coup, armed takeover, riot, etc.) in hopes of providing better future.
For now, this is what you COULD attempt to ponder upon if possible. This is just me and my take (please agree to disagree), but I think there's much more than just and "solely" racial motives. Sometimes, the most complex bodies, entireties can be realized and fixed by assessing the "easiest" parts first. Let this be my final, "non-PC" note on this discussion - and to recap: I had no intents to racially nor prejudice-wise hurt anyone around here. I came here for the sake of cooperative, constructive and eye-opening discussions.
 
 
 
 
 
 

First and most of all, I still fail to see that how I gave @Zeusand @CAT5an impression of handling American matters "much better" than actual inhabitants with experience and whatnot (i.e. "knowitall" and "expert"-attitude). As those hints in my comments already say - there is a big difference when I DICTATE and when I SUGGEST (please do feel free to point out where are such hints). At this point we, non-American MH participants, attempt to facilitate the atmosphere of cooperation here - to outline the discussion for catering various aspects in order to get the bigger picture together  - what is truly going on? Of course, as it was mentioned above, there are no immediate solutions available at the moment. Yes, we definitely lack on-site experience in terms of current events. However, generally saying things like "you have it much easier there due to your race" or similar stuff is
 
1) Dismissing possible BG information about said person's nationality and ethnicity (since racism touches these subjects as well, FYI). Sure, I didn't expect Zess to read my bio like an open book since we are not that familiar with each other but this move is nonetheless guaranteed to rub your partner in conversation the wrong way. I ain't the victim of institutionalized racism, no - but even so, as the person of ethnicity different (and looked down upon) from my country fellows, I can say that I at least "get the gist" of it. Therefore, let's just stop personal addressing and "HA! You said this back in the day"-kind of accusation and assess the merit of our arguments instead.
 
And if we lump this "you live abroad so you just stay away from our business"-rhetoric here as well, it's also
 
2) Shutting your partners out. Don't exclude - but explain, guide, debate...make the progress if you want us to understand! It doesn't help at all if you find our positioning potentially hurtful and consequently shut us out from your matters. As a global, worried community we are equally worried and willing to help you discover the "right path" . Isolating us from specific topics is just...not exemplary nor helpful for our esprit de corps:  we have this shared spirit of J-enthusiasm and it would really suck if it all went away due to such "cloaking".
 
None of us wants you to close your ears and eyes to the potential plethora of choices and literally follow the idiom of "fighting fire with fire", which is really, really, REALLY NOT recommended if you strive for radical changes in racism or any form of complex, prejudice-driven interaction from its institutionalized to its "milder" form (since it cannot vanish, unfortunately). As such, it's advised in the meanwhile to address other frightening realities of today's plethora of events TOGETHER - even if your partners in conversation seem to be really "out of touch" or "biased" about them - be it militarization of police forces; questionable, almost illogical status of amendments; the lack of direct "channels" between the gov and citizens; "bandwagoning"/"witch-hunting" and so on.
 
This may not be of course the wordbook definition of "solution" , but it would at least help to settle some things and avoid the large-scale, social catastrophe. The worst fate for any country is basically the "implosion" - the moment when citizens from different blocks start antagonizing each other and bear very radical intentions to "break the system" (coup, armed takeover, riot, etc.) in hopes of providing better future.
For now, this is what you COULD attempt to ponder upon if possible. This is just me and my take (please agree to disagree), but I think there's much more than just and "solely" racial motives. Sometimes, the most complex bodies, entireties can be realized and fixed by assessing the "easiest" parts first. Let this be my final, "non-PC" note on this discussion - and to recap: I had no intents to racially nor prejudice-wise hurt anyone around here. I came here for the sake of cooperative, constructive and eye-opening discussions.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Would rep @hiroki's post 100 times over, if I could. I find it utterly bizarre how most modern mainstream 'equality' movements seem intent on reinforcing the perceived divisions in whichever demographic dimension they're concerned with rather than deconstructing them through heterogeneous deliberative discussion and co-operation. It's as though there's a widespread fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of equality; where people somehow perceive increased separation between peoples based on arbitrary identity factors to be preferable to the elimination of those factors from social consciousness. What makes it worse is its self-reinforcing tendencies, wherein which individuals from 'outside' of the debate are marginalized or excluded on the logic that the argument "doesn't affect them", and thus the 'debate' ends up taking place in a homogeneous echo chamber of sorts. I'm seeing this trend in a lot of other aspects of society too, and I have to admit it leaves me feeling very concerned.
 
Which would be completely fine, if your opinion was logically well-founded and well-supported. Refer to Hiroki's post above.

Alice Nine members (at least Shou and Saga - composers of this track btw) are avid Muse fanboys  - this also explains the similar concept of "song trilogy" behind GEMINI and the one Muse had in their 2008-2009-ish album.
 
(for reference: Alice Nine often mention U2, Muse, Number Girl, Luna Sea and some sophisticated brit acts akin to Underworld and so)

kill me

*puts down popcorn*

I should probably clarify my position here.  Personally, I do find that racism still exists and is still very prevalent, and I have also witnessed it first hand as someone who has grown up in the Southeast. I know the communities of closet-racists and have witnessed it in action, but I also am familiar with communities where I couldn't observe a single shred of discomfort or hate. 
 

To add upon this, I do believe we should always be talking about the broader picture of race relations, but I also believe that behind these recent particular incidents we need to focus solely the "nature of circumstances" / the individuals directly involved (and their circles.)  I understand that individuals are upset, I don't blame anyone for that...  but that does not justify the disgusting knee-jerk rhetoric that's been spewing out as of the last 24 hours on myriad social media platforms. Like time and time again, we need to take a step back from the aisle and try and fully grasp what is going on (on both sides) instead of being driven by emotion. We can't drive systemic change yelling with our hands plastered to our ears. 
 
 
What I don't like seeing is this. Disenfranchising someone because of their cultural and geographical background. 
Carmelzors may have a limited perspective on these particular issues, but trying to devalue what has been clearly thought out and researched on the grounds of "living halfway on the other side of the world"...
I don't 100% agree with everything he says, but given the context of this conversation, I find that assumption quite brash. 
(Again, this is in the context of what I've seen so far. I have no interest in the other shouting matches that have occurred outside of this discussion.)

I like how peeps are literally attempting to evade "PC culture mines" very carefully while trying to get their point across w/o accusations of race-related racism (read further), whereas EVERYONE gives specific cultural racist statements a pass every.single.time. instead. This community is no exception tbqh.
 
In the wake of latest events and clashing responses, I'd love to bring up a huge reminder: fighting hate with hate will trigger more hatred and havoc-tier division between different peeps. Accusing WHOLE races, ethnicities AND nationalities for inferiority and/or "supremacy" (racism in overall caters discriminatory behaviors and beliefs based on cultural, national, ethnic, caste, or religious stereotypes - so it's not merely limited to the standard tumblr definition) is equally idiotic and bigoted. What we should be discussing here should be merely the nature of circumstances (gun laws, possible criminal backgrounds, federal discipline, corruption etc.) and not the vendetta against all representatives of the "oppressor's" race or occupation.
 
Of course, I may face misunderstanding or slandering after these comments but here's the thing: whenever we bring up the case of races - be it its addressing in the name of "inferior opinions" or "instant bigotry" -  we will lose the human, personal touch in discussions of various fields. I, most of all, want to discuss with people - with personalities, mutual interests, hobbies and activity-based backgrounds. I don't give a single damn about your race, nationality, caste, ethnicity or culture unless you intentionally and unreasonably attempt to slam these aspects of mine as the means of providing so-called "counter-arguments" (i.e. "because you represent the ethnicity x, you are subhuman troll and your opinions are invalid" - pretty much almost any baltic MH user I have met, as the case in point) or as the tool of opposing my social presence. Sure, I have been equally guilty for this kind of bullshit but just read everything what I said above - hate will give birth to more hate, and it will go on and on until there will be no one left here.
 
So let's not be hypocrites in this case and understand this loop of miseries and division - let us see each other as the avid (Japanese) music enthusiasts and hobbyists from different blocks and slices of life instead. Discussing races, ethnicities, nationalities or "what would be PC" all the time will just put us against each other and crash the concept of "unity", "community"...
 
If you didn't find this comment "PC" enough...well I am not sorry. Those who know me better will get my point across very easily.
 

oh god.

Yes, Takumi has been the significant figure in their programming antics ever since RES' disbandment (as an assistant) and post-DSS days (DSS left him uncredited for some reason even though he *was* there). This includes pianos, midi synths, programmed zithers (Tousei), partial guitar manipulation/mixing (considering that he used to work as a guitar tech for DEG at first) etc. etc. So you might as well go out on a limb and assume that Takumi may be the "sixth member" by that sense.
 
Fun fact: he is also responsible for post-Uroboros band scores (even though he goes under his real name which...isn't different from his pseudonym, lol).
 
As for Arche, sure - there is a handful of songs (Tousei, Cause of Fickleness, STU, Un Deux, The Inferno, Midwife) that may have been conveyed in the same fashion live-wise as well. However, we are talking merely about "handful" in this case: not much has been learned from very studio-centered ambitions on DSS and THE UNRAVELING. As such, my point still stands along with how I see their current inter-relationships (negativity is anything but tinfoil theory at this point) - even these "supposed" improvements in songwriting tactics didn't come out as we speak. What I personally hear now, is basically hindrance of mutual interests.
 
Since @Undead burgerpointed out the case of "Kyo blame", allow me to point out another missed detail: during their ARCHE stream it was mentioned that Kyo's role was equal to other band members "during the final phases of the album". Shouldn't we feel bad for our angst-ridden chanteuse when he tries to meddle between two acts, and oopsie-daisie: he happens to contribute a lot more to his own project? Does that make ARCHE more of "Kaoru album" (see: the stream again) than "Kyo + Kaoru + co." album then? How can ARCHE be the "representative" of Dir en grey's sound then? Is DEG literally "all Kaoru"? We might never know...or do we?!
 

Yes, Takumi has been the significant figure in their programming antics ever since RES' disbandment (as an assistant) and post-DSS days (DSS left him uncredited for some reason even though he *was* there). This includes pianos, midi synths, programmed zithers (Tousei), partial guitar manipulation/mixing (considering that he used to work as a guitar tech for DEG at first) etc. etc. So you might as well go out on a limb and assume that Takumi may be the "sixth member" by that sense.
 
Fun fact: he is also responsible for post-Uroboros band scores (even though he goes under his real name which...isn't different from his pseudonym, lol).
 
As for Arche, sure - there is a handful of songs (Tousei, Cause of Fickleness, STU, Un Deux, The Inferno, Midwife) that may have been conveyed in the same fashion live-wise as well. However, we are talking merely about "handful" in this case: not much has been learned from very studio-centered ambitions on DSS and THE UNRAVELING. As such, my point still stands along with how I see their current inter-relationships (negativity is anything but tinfoil theory at this point) - even these "supposed" improvements in songwriting tactics didn't come out as we speak. What I personally hear now, is basically hindrance of mutual interests.
 
Since @Undead burgerpointed out the case of "Kyo blame", allow me to point out another missed detail: during their ARCHE stream it was mentioned that Kyo's role was equal to other band members "during the final phases of the album". Shouldn't we feel bad for our angst-ridden chanteuse when he tries to meddle between two acts, and oopsie-daisie: he happens to contribute a lot more to his own project? Does that make ARCHE more of "Kaoru album" (see: the stream again) than "Kyo + Kaoru + co." album then? How can ARCHE be the "representative" of Dir en grey's sound then? Is DEG literally "all Kaoru"? We might never know...or do we?!
 

Cannot wait to see how certain nordic fanboys will defend this effort this time

~ＡＥＳＴＨＥＴＩＣ~

Seconding these:
 
 
Adding these (avec brief explanations):
 

am I the only person disappointed in utafumi not being.... fast enough?
 
I was expecting another machiavellism or something similar to zan tempo-wise, and this sounds like an average Deg single
(it also gives me a lot of filth flashbacks by some reasons?? probably shinya's basic sounding drumming)
 
bless u for reminding to make this thing

Cannot wait to see how certain nordic fanboys will defend this effort this time

I bolded the answer Remix album trend was all the rage during early 00s - but now we are living mid-10s, in the wake of streaming sites, mixtape portals etc. etc...so there you go.
 
Also: meet the hipster

 

Great choices you have there, guys! (especially mitsume)
 
As for me, I have been jamming to latest Indigo la End album lately. They have surely matured a lot and it's really easy to get over possible Robin Thicke-isms (*COUGH* get the reference) of Enon by enjoying his otherwise simple yet very memorable hooks and highly technical interplay with his bandmates:
 
 
 

Great choices you have there, guys! (especially mitsume)
 
As for me, I have been jamming to latest Indigo la End album lately. They have surely matured a lot and it's really easy to get over possible Robin Thicke-isms (*COUGH* get the reference) of Enon by enjoying his otherwise simple yet very memorable hooks and highly technical interplay with his bandmates:
 
 
 

Revisited this thread and just noticed your embed link
 
I must be a special snowflake since that "pseudo-glam rock-ish-grab-your-balls" scream @Decadence's chorus is what makes it memorable to me
 
Also:
 

 
*wink wink* Anti-idols.