Music and shock value

[Bear 1817]

 

Visual kei has also lost some of the shock factor that i once loved. The musicians look more like those host boys of japan today.

 

 

Of course the shock factor is gone. A shock factor will only be shocking for so long until it's not shocking anymore. This goes for everything. But I fail to see why this would matter at all.

 

 

Why wouldn't it matter? Isn't shock the very definition of what visual kei was intended to be? does "Psychedelic violence crime of visual shock" ring any bells? And it doesn't even have to be only about looks, It can be with controversial or taboo lyrics, contrasting themes or ideas, blending of musical genre's, etc.

 

 

I don't know when you got into visual kei, but I got into visual kei very late (2005 or something around there) and there was no shock value left at that point. And therefore I don't give a fuck about shock value, as nothing like that has been a part of visual kei (or anything music related) since I got into it.

 

 

This was discussed in another thread (and have been discussed to death I imagine), but it's still a fun and interesting topic IMO.

 

Have you ever been shocked by a band's image/lyrical themes or anything like that?

Do you still think it's possible to be shocking in 2014?

What would a band have to do to shock you?

 

 

I think the closest thing to shock value that has worked in my time was old live clips of GG Allin shitting on stage, smearing himself in with it, dragging girls by their hair and beating/fighting the audience. Sakevi of G.I.S.M. getting a flame thrower and attacking the audience. And Woods of Infinity's pedophilia flirt, but this was because of some rather creepy pictures on their website, and not the lyrics alone.

 

But when I got into music, even these things wasn't very shocking anymore. It was "wtf" for about five minutes, then it got rather old already. So yeah, I've enver experience any real shocking as far as music goes. Have you?

 

And the few bands that have tried to be shocking since I got much into harder music such as punk and metal (00/01 or something) have falled flat on their asses and failed miserably. Shock value is gone, and it's been like that for a long, long, long time as everything that is shocking has been used to death way before my time as a serious listener.

[Gaz 1097]

how can anyone be shocked by dudes wearing not ordinary clothes plus hard make-up and singing about necrophilia/pedophilia/*choose yours* ? for me it's more like "wow cool" or "ew gross" kind of feeling. maybe i was a bit "shocked" when i first started to explore vk genre. but everything was totally new to me so at that time kyo doing some weird shit with himself on the stage was pretty shocking thang tbh.

[lichtlune 915]

Some examples of what i mean by "shocking" with visual kei. 

 

 

I don't know how to add the spoiler tag to hide some of those so i apologize if its a big post. 

 

what would a band have to do to shock me? I don't know spit out some blood and just go nuts or something. whatever fits the concept. Maybe the "shocking" value wares off with time but it's still cool to see a musician go crazy sometimes. I don't know why but its fun to watch. 

 

I'd also like to see more intricate and creepy costumes and horror elements in the music. I never see that with visual kei or any artists for that matter.

 

I think one of the better bands at doing this was "Aliene ma'riage"  they have this 18 minute track full of all kinds of horror movie sounding stuff and ambiance throughout and it made my skin crawl a little hearing it for the first time. Of course there are those cheap halloween-like bands though. 

 

I don't understand why it wouldn't be possible to be shocking in 2014 it would just take a lot of effort and know how. 

[Bear 1817]

Would you care to exlain why and how any of those videos would be shocking to anyone? What's shocking with them? Because I fail to see it to be honest.

[miyuu 40]

it's not about shocking you, if you are open minded .is about shocking and annoy a repressed , delicate society.to provoke those people by showing you do not care about their repressive rules. also it's a trick to attract attention. so the fan should feel some short of amazement or shock, if you feel they are laughable and ridiculous and there is no point .

maistream media have use everything by now.and are more open minded compared to the past. so it's not shocking when people use it everywhere and have accepted it. but you still have to try and show the same.maybe it's like a tradition lol.
if you have maistream accepted pop appearence and attitude. with pretty hair and fashion clothes.what's the point .i think you lost the meaning of vkei .and it's roots.
remember old x japan that had kind of a thrash metal /punk glam ? influenced look with big hair.

[Ikna 1225]

I guess when many people (including me) speak about “shock value“ they mean the typical gloomy, dark, try hard-edgy aesthetics, that defined at least mid to late 90s Vkei. I'd say the whole dark and horror chic survived even until the mid 00s. See Unsraw, early Screw and all those Nu-Metal influenced groups of that time. Unsraw even had Body Horror-like costumes at the beginning. But what it mostly comes down to are the Horror chic, the dark romanticism (Paraphilias, Murder, Violence, asocial or murderous behaviour that's kinda romanticized), Eroguro stuff (Amputations, bandages, blood, eye licking and/or eye fixation and body horror), etc.
And the most important thing: the fact, that the musicians often look otherworldly with their freaky costumes and cheesy hairtsyles. It creates some kind of "out of the ordinary" experience. That may be the biggest point, since in Neo VK bands rarely do the whole "faux-goth with huuuge Neon colored hair and 2spooky4all make up" anymore. Those older bands (from the indies scene mostly, because we are obviuosly not talking about soft vkei here, which never had much shock value to begin with) bands looked ridiculous most of the time, but their looks set them apart. What many people are bragging about is, that modern VK bands are often not so different from other popular japanese rock groups in term of looks. Anyone can dress in the away VK bands are styling themselves now, since their look is based on street fashion, rather then expensive and cheesy costumes, which the bandmembers only wear on stage (since they are way too uncomfortable to be actually worn outside as daily outfits).

Also let's not forget that there are a lot of cultural differnces between Japan and us mostly US and Europe-listeners. What may not be shocking or provocative for us may be totally not okay and scandalous in Japan. I am sure that Dir en grey's PV managed to enrage or scare the shit out of some Japanese citizens back in the day. And of course, what has already been said, time has changed. We are now familiar with all the clichés old VK bands had to offer and we grew tired of them. They lost their effect to really reach us emotionally. The only thing we may see now is that 80% of those PVs are cheap and bad. So saying shock value defined VK is not wrong, as it did indeed in Japan.

But now from my subjective perspective: I really miss those dumb and old “edgy" clichés. I have seen them so many times, but I still can't say that I am glad that they vanished. Okay, I am fine with Nazi uniforms having gone extinct in Vkei and badly done MUCC-inspired make up seems to have left the scene finally too. But I'd really love to see again bands incorporating the good old horror tropes, eroguro elements and the "I am goin' crazy and slice some people up, fuck yeah" theme.

[coffee000 14]

Do you mean music should be shocking for the sake of being shocking? I for one am against this kind of idea. To me, music should be interesting, entertaining and creative. The "shock value" sometimes happens to come with it because it is challenging certain repressive values in a society like someone said. For example, you can't deny that visual kei aesthetics old or new are challenging conservative or gender images in Japan's society, to fulfil certain audience's and musicians' wishes. I know it's not shocking anymore. And it doesn't have to be. Visual kei as well as some of today's pop stars' fashion and styling (look at Kyary Pamyu Pamyu), which have become far more flashy and bold than ever, are not shocking anymore. It doesn't mean they are not interesting and entertaining to audience at all. Why can't audience just appreciates what they see and hear for what it is - appreciating its aesthetics, not just image, but in music as well.  

 

I believe 'shock value" can be part of certain music's creativity, but shouldn't be the sole reason why the music exists. And sometimes when it's poorly done (like those old bad PVs mentioned above), I'd rather they not do it anymore. If you want to do it, do it well. There can be clichés in your PV, but you can do it in an interesting and well-produced way. Like I l said, it doesn't have to be shocking and if you aim for that, more often than not you will fail.

 

Have you ever asked your self as a member of the audience, is crap like shitting on stage and similar stuff what you really want? I mean, any random fool can do that. If you do that, you will only make yourself look like an idiot - nothing else. It doesn't represent any creativity and musicianship. But if that's what you really want, I am sure more entertainers will be happy to do such on stage for you.

 

Of course you can do a lot of things to shock people. Yes, I can be shocked. But you will only be a five-minute fool and quickly ignored by the audience after "wtf". Yes, you probably get the attention you want. I, as a member of music audience will not give you any attention and will keep looking for music with real value to me.

[Flash-Fab-Supernova 88]

I haven't been shocked by a VK act or a horror movie since I was 12. Anyone who gets shocked about that kind of thing anymore is probably either a kid or a suburban mommy. I think once you pass a certain age you get more shocked by things in reality more so than some goth guy chortling in a puddle of blood.

[lichtlune 915]

I haven't been shocked by a VK act or a horror movie since I was 12. Anyone who gets shocked about that kind of thing anymore is probably either a kid or a suburban mommy. I think once you pass a certain age you get more shocked by things in reality more so than some goth guy chortling in a puddle of blood.

When i say shock i don't necessarily mean "Oh such spookz i can't handle dis ahhh" You know what i mean. avant-garde, crazy, unusual, experimental, in your face, SHOCKING, whatever. 

 

oh and that's because horror movies are awful these days and don't understand how atmosphere or ambiance works. Cheapo jump scares isn't horror. It's shocking initially but only because your eardrums are physically assaulted usually.

 

I don't know how to exactly explain it but I'm just talking about the essence of what visual kei used to be maybe shocking isn't the right word i don't know. I didn't expect this to grow into a separate thread or to be put on the spot like this. Truth is i don't know how to explain it i guess, there's my answer. 

 

Ikna does a better job.

[Zeus 7997]

It'll be hard for us to objectively discuss this topic because we're all open minded enough for visual kei to not shock us. However, I can't leave this forum and start discussing Japanese music, metal, or visual kei with somebody. A lot of people I know will judge all three of those things because the concepts are strange and foreign to them, and they might even be subtly repulsed by one or two of them. How much something shocks someone depends from person to person.

As for things that shock me...not too many. I've been on the Internet too long and I've seen a lot of things and I've heard a lot of visual kei music. Most bands that go for shock value alone fall into the try-hard zone on my radar and I instantly don't care. When a band combines shock value and good music, I can often appreciate the effort behind the aesthetic. That's about it.

[blackdoll 907]

1. I was shocked by this. I didn't know guys could shred in those shoes (didn't know he was hot either till i saw that).

 

2. No, not with the internet

 

3. idk go brutal maybe.

[blackdoll 907]

Lycaon 10 new songs were shockingly all so fucking good, like OH MY GOD!

[blackdoll 907]

https://youtu.be/drFPonh19TI?t=2m46s

[Bear 1817]

Ok. That was uninteresting.

[BrenGun 2261]

Maybe that dezert music video??

Kinda creepy pv.

But if you love horror, goth music, metal music simply nothing will shock you that fast.

To get a real answer, ask your parants to give their comment. They will be shocked by some videos.

And at least they will say.

Why that dude dress up as a woman? Σ(゜Д゜)

People get simply shocked because its not normal for them or unknown.

But the visual kei now... its not shocking because nothing is that original.

[Nisimaldar 153]

I think the closest thing to shock value that has worked in my time was old live clips of GG Allin shitting on stage, smearing himself in with it, dragging girls by their hair and beating/fighting the audience. Sakevi of G.I.S.M. getting a flame thrower and attacking the audience. And Woods of Infinity's pedophilia flirt, but this was because of some rather creepy pictures on their website, and not the lyrics alone.

... I'm glad I was not aware of this and I could have gone without being aware of this all my life tbh.

 

I know it's not the same for everyone, but shocking people, imo, should have, ideally, a message that makes others question their society imposed and accepted standards. But I feel like, with the examples above, that those are just manic people using a stage as setting to exercise their disturbed fantasies. I feel like that, as fans, we sometimes accept too much from artists that we would not accept if it were non-artists.

However, as with contemporary art, people can basically see a message in everything, no matter how obscure and, of course, some people just like to be shocking for the heck of it (which I don't really understand, why not try to revolutionise society when you have the power to do it?).

I also don't understand those bands that spray pigs blood on stage, I wonder what's the thought process behind that....

 

What frustrated me is snuff and gore stuff on the internet and people watching it because it's 'cool' and ugh, just why. The world is such a fucked up place.

[Elazmus 1873]

Came here with only GG Allin in mind haha.

 

but in general, even slightly dark, grotesque, violent, sexual imagery can be shocking to sensitive people

and on the other hand, stage shitting and audience brawling isn't shocking when you see enough shit and beatings.

 

It comes down to who your audience is and WHO you want to shock

[seikun 317]

Visual Kei still has the potential to shock and be thought-provoking, to talk about societal issues still affecting different societies across the world, but that power is dormant.

[blackdoll 907]

[hiroki 5521]

i find it both amusing and sad that people are willing to pay to see an attention-seeking psychopath like him vent his frustrations on stage. sorry but i can't imagine anyone watching this being struck with an anti-establishment epiphany, or a motivation to live his/her life better, or be profoundly moved, or anything of value at all. if this is the kind of 'shock value' that people want i'm happy to say that i can do without it..

[Biopanda 2675]

i find it both amusing and sad that people are willing to pay to see an attention-seeking psychopath like him vent his frustrations on stage. sorry but i can't imagine anyone watching this being struck with an anti-establishment epiphany, or a motivation to live his/her life better, or be profoundly moved, or anything of value at all. if this is the kind of 'shock value' that people want i'm happy to say that i can do without it..

Truth be told, I'd pay to see his corpse perform a concert "weekend at bernie's" style. Couldn't be too much more gross than his concerts used to be tbh

[relentless 254]

... I'm glad I was not aware of this and I could have gone without being aware of this all my life tbh.

 

I know it's not the same for everyone, but shocking people, imo, should have, ideally, a message that makes others question their society imposed and accepted standards. But I feel like, with the examples above, that those are just manic people using a stage as setting to exercise their disturbed fantasies. I feel like that, as fans, we sometimes accept too much from artists that we would not accept if it were non-artists.

However, as with contemporary art, people can basically see a message in everything, no matter how obscure and, of course, some people just like to be shocking for the heck of it (which I don't really understand, why not try to revolutionise society when you have the power to do it?).

 

 

Luckily, with a performer like GG Allin, there's a reason why he could only play small basement shows to (at most) 100-200 people, even with members of the Ramones as his band. Generally popular opinion is a poor gauge for art; but it does a good job of filtering out lesser acts like Allin.

 

As for shock value and its need to carry a message that "makes others question their society imposed and accepted standards", I find that to be less necessary when a vast amount of shock value in music tends not to carry that purpose. Whether it's metal and its love of gore for album art (Cannibal Corpse), outfits (Ghost, many black metal acts), and theatrics (Mayhem and using pigs heads / blood as props), or even rock with the rise of Kiss, glam, and eventually VK, the focus is arousing the audience to generate a reaction towards the performers and presenation. Even in its purest form, shock value in the music itself (which next to no musical acts do today, which is unfortunate) with musical jokes or deceptive / false cadences are employed to arouse reactions from the audience without challenging "society imposed and accepted standards". Maybe some form of "accepted standards" are challenged with gory cover art and unusual dress from the band members; but due to the volume of both, it's become derivative. Thus, any message that was initially intended, is immediately lost in the wave of groups wanting to copy and emulate what was previously done.

 

Maybe there are groups that incorporate shock value and have something to say about the world that's fresh and interesting; but in the context of Metal where the only thing a band has to say is "dude, Christianity, lmao", or in VK that is inherently saying nothing at all, it's nonexistent.

[Elazmus 1873]

Loll people missing the point of GG...

 

Was definitely not where you look for a "life changing epiphany" XD

[relentless 254]

Loll people missing the point of GG...

 

 

Missing the point of GG? He was a performer who would attack his audiences, shit over himself, wore thongs, and vomited on stage. What more is there to get?

 

 

EDIT: spelling

[Elazmus 1873]

That's exactly what I'm saying lol, that's all it was, theres nothing greater to it than that. A few posts previous sounded like they were looking for some great meaning. I enjoy GG for what he is/was but as a musical act it's a totally animal thing without any intelligence loll