Artists who don't write their own songs

[sai 868]

How do you feel about artists who don't write their own songs, but use ghost writers to write part of or all of their material? Do you feel like these people don't deserve their fame, or is it something that doesn't bother you as long as you can enjoy the music? To keep the discussion in line, I'd like to keep this limited to Japanese music only, both VK as non-VK.

 

Also, what do you think about artists who start using ghost writers later on in their career when they've become quite succesful and have made a good deal on a major label (as an example: there have been rumours of the GazettE using ghost writers ever since the switch to SONY, but this is of course a rumour that has not been proven). If this were true, would you feel betrayed because your favourite artist has "stopped trying", or would you just shrug it off?

[Bear 1817]

I don't have anything against it, good music is good music no matter who wrote and who performed it. But I do think it's pretty pathetic to use ghost writers and take the cred as writers. Just give the actual writers the cred they deserve for fuck sake.

[violetchain 912]

I don't really care. If the music is good I'll listen to it.

[bonsaijodelfisch 328]

^that pretty much,

 

nothing wrong with sticking to be a performer if that's your strong point and leaving the writing to whoever is more suited, but credit to whom credit belongs

[coffee000 14]

Some people seem to believe that creating (commercial) music is solely the work of the band members. But in reality this is not the case. They have ignored how many people have worked behind the scenes of an album that are put into the market. Music is a product to make money, it would be crazy if labels didn't treat it seriously. They can accept that movies are made by a huge team of crew but not music? That said, some bands might have more control over the end product while some have less, depending on their label. It's probably the practice of the music industry, a lot of team members they hire are not credited as writers?

 

A lot of bands and artists, even including the big name ones, still produce mediocre releases even if they are given a lot of help and budget, be it ghost writers, producers or vocal trainers/music teachers. I can say that the success of their music relies on clever marketing more than the actual quality of the music.

[sai 868]

In response to coffee000, I have to say that I respectfully disagree with you on the last paragraph. Of course, marketing is very important; it's important that artists give interviews on radio/TV and in magazines to promote their album, that spots will be aired on TV, posters will be put up around the city/in music shops, etc. Without it, people won't even notice you're releasing something new. Good promotion might also get people who don't listen to you to check out your new release anyway, so I agree that promotion is very important, BUT a bad CD still is a bad CD, no matter how pretty it looks or how well it is promoted. Most bands release samples before the release, and if those samples do not seem very convincing to me, then I won't buy the album until I get the opportunity to listen it over at a friend's, download it online or read some reviews on it. I suppose every person is different in this, but I'd take a good CD packaged in a slip of paper over a bad CD in a beautiful book-like package any day.

 

Now, about ghost writers, I think there are actually multiple reasons they're there, and not just for when the artist is feeling lazy, so to say. Bands have deadlines, and sometimes they just don't have enough time to write enough material before the album needs to be due the way the record company wants it. In such cases it really comes in handy to have a few ghost writers who can help you complete the album in time. So I wouldn't immediately say ghost writers are just there to jump in for a lazy artist. I do agree that credit needs to belong to the right person. In K-pop, almost none of the idols write their own songs, and all songwriters are always credited in the album booklets; if you've had a few ghost writers, they at least deserve some credit.

[Champ213 1858]

Even in a band that writes their own music it's not uncommon that there is only one main songwriter. Sometimes there's a composer and someone else, usually the vocalist, only adds the lyrics to it. So essentially, the majority of the band is playing songs that they didn't write. Surely they may add input on how to perform the songs, but they can do that as well for songs written by someone not in the band.

 

 

The dangers of using ghost writers is obviously that your music may quickly become interchangeable. I guess if you have a bunch of other people write your songs, it's harder to develop your own trademark style and sound. Unless of course you happen to have the same ghost writer every time. But in the music industry it's not uncommon to just buy songs that weren't even specifically written for a specific artist.

 

A ghost-written song can still be a kick-ass song. But if an artist relies only on songs written by someone else, they run into the danger of being little more than a glorified music box. That may not bother me so much, it's not like I'm checking the writing credits for every song I listen to, but it may bother them in the long run.

[Jigsaw9 6783]

I don't mind people who don't write their music as long as said music is cool. I guess "young metalhead me" would disagree with "current me" if he ever saw this, heh.

[JukaForever 758]

For producers of instrumentals, I don't really care as long as there is credits so I can track down some of their work later on with other artists. This is how I manage some of my KPOP bands.

 

For ghostwriters of lyrics, since I grew up with hip-hop, this is a bigger thing I take seriously. The lyrics is often a reflection of your thoughts of the world around you, if you miscredit them as your own, then you are basically dishonest about yourself. Granted, a producer and a ghostwriter can be the same person so for people that don't have much to say, I don't mind as long as the singer doesn't try to own it for themselves.

[Flash-Fab-Supernova 88]

I think I have a bigger problem with lip syncing during a live and obvious constant auto-tune trying to fix the vocals rather than being used for a stylistic reason. 

 

I think there are a lot of different factors that go into a finished visual kei song, especially with todays management style. Some bands even have similar lyrics, choruses, pv location. At this point orignality is reaching a glossy point, it started around the time Alice Nine stopped looking like silly punks and then reached peak perfection with bands like ViViD, who at this point are trying for k-pop styled looks and haven't made a good release since the indies. Most of the more harder rock VK bands look like darker indies ViViD and all the styles seen now aren't even original. It's pretty ridiculous to try and take the whole scene seriously as a whole because it's an amalgamation of other people's styles and a bunch of pretentions and formulas. It's like this big amorphous blob of a fashion click and it weirdly gets reflected in a bunch of people that are drawn to this music. The ones that only listen to VK and even dress it everyday. Like these girls at my high school. They were extremely prudish and wouldn't talk to anyone unless they dressed "alternatively." They are normally extremely judgmental and have the worst opinions possible.  There are some bands that parody this recently. (Like BORN's SATISFACTION? pv. I don't even like that band but everything they did in that pointed to them parodying the whole sub-culture.) All these bands look too perfect sometimes. BUT EVEN SO. I still really like a lot of VK. But I can't ever take anything seriously and thus like all the goofiest stuff everrrrrrrrrrr. 

 

But I think the biggest thing that usually goes into a band's songs is whoever the producer is. A big big big view at what these bands are like with out the production, just look at the aimless 12012 album that came out after they lost their guitarist. Then there is that whole Miyavi debacle where he fucked some bitch pregnant at some music show like MTV and made a big scandal and was asked to leave by PSC who hid the whole thing as a goodbye party for MYV, dat PEACE AND SMILE CARNIVAL 2. (Which had amazing performances by Kra and Alice Nine and and and and and and and uhh... The GazettE were ok. And Miyavi was SUPAA COOL YO.) But anyway~! After Miyavi didn't have PSC he did that stuff by himself and they were like... not as finished as the PSC stuff. It was a lot cooler and seemed more realistic to him but he just wasn't really making as much catchy stuff. He must have realized he couldn't do it all alone because of all the collabs he's been doing the past few years. So I believe production plays a major role on what the song is. 

 

I USED to have this crazy theory U GAIZ. OK SO LIKE. Let's take a band. HOW ABOUT ViViD. Cause. Remember DA ViViD CodE and how evil it was? And how real it seemed even though I obviously made it jokingly. BUT BUT GUESS WHAT. I had more of a theory. OF THEIR EVIL. But I fear the PSCurse. But ANYWAY. All the band members ever in VK use Stage names right? Well let's say these stage names are secretly a DISGUISE. So let's look at a band member. We'll take Shin. You know~! That vocalist wit dat cheesey vibrato and rapper skillz TOTHEMAX~! (For you indies obsessives, he was in AKIHABARA SHOUNENDAN DENNOU OBLATT imean ROMEO and then got headhunted by an experimental PSC band that comprised of most of the people from ViViD. And they pretty much convinced him to just leave his old band and join their PSC SUPER BAND. And everyone said "AHAHAHAHA IT SOUNDS LIKE xTRiPx!!" ANYWAY WHAT I WAS GETTING AT.  WHAT IF. Shin isn't just the person you see who sings. Shin could be an encompassing name, like the name of a group of people. The one that writes the lyrics, the one that picks out the outfit, the one that walks the singer/guitarist/bassist through how to perform the music correctly. SO LIKE. IT COULD BE A CIRCLE NAME. SOMETIMES IT COULD EVEN HAVE A PERSON WHO DOES THE VOCALS AND THE SINGER IS JUST A PUPPET. And so not only is Shin the one you see twirling a towel on stage, it is everyone involved in the creation of Shin. From clothes to vocals to lyrics to anything. OR LOOK AT SuG. Saw a live where the guitarists weren't even trying to keep up with the track and it was odd. I even tried to see if the video timing was fucked up or somseshit but nope. This was all just a hypothetical WHAT IF crazy idea I had one time I was drunk and looking around at a bunch of different pvs and all kinds of shit and like. I DUNNO IT MAKES SENSE SOMETIMES. 

[coffee000 14]

^

I happen to like Shin's voice very much and am happy with their second album. I am actually glad that he was headhunted by those PSC guys, left that terrible old band and ViViD have ditched their terrible old style since signing to a major label. I get the music I am listening to and like now - that's what matters.

[Nyasagi 259]

No matter who writes the music, they took their time and effort to do that. The work should be always appreciated if the sound is decent. The song writers should be credited, but they probably aren't, to not ruin the band's image. Who would like to think someone else writes music for your favorite musicians? It's always better to think they're so talented (I don't know if any talented musicians need song writers, though... but who knows, maybe their skills are good, but they can't write any good music). Even if they don't write their music, they still do their work. Dealing with all the public attention and playing their roles isn't an easy thing to do, because people will notice even the smallest imperfection and they aren't going to be nice about that. Song writers are safe, because they're away from the public eyes.

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

leave stefani germanotta alone omfg

 

 

Same as Bear. I don't care if you got your litter sister to write your main chord progression by having her smash her hands on a piano or if you used a ouija board to ask Mozart to do it for you, so long as it's enjoyable and performed well then it's all good to me. I like it when bands, or other types of artists, have guest writers that give them a little change of style (i.e. Penicillin's "Nightmare Before Christmas" and Baiser's "Mechanixx" were not written by themselves). Just don't front.

[nekkichi 6043]

Also, what do you think about artists who start using ghost writers later on in their career when they've become quite succesful and have made a good deal on a major label (as an example: there have been rumours of the GazettE using ghost writers ever since the switch to SONY, but this is of course a rumour that has not been proven).

i'm not sure what kind of gazette rumours are those (because they would actually better hire a couple actual ghostwriters), but the closest thing vk currently has to the whole creative artist ≠ performer situation thing is miyavi's atrocious self titled album, which ironically features zero of his own writing and to me, that drove the authenticity of this person even lower. not to mention that the album in question's lyrics were outstandingly bad as well??

 

as a rhianna fan i probably should not judge vk acts who would have done this at all, and probably wouldn't, if their music hasn't sucked regardless of uncredited creative effort. 

[Pretsy 1343]

Bear actually nailed it quite well - considering that "both sides" , as in (some prime examples) 1) hiring some Jedwards/Eurovision composer/writer to write your "renewed major" songs or 2) being the main composer with hasbeen-ish ideas, and not giving  enough room for your bandmates writing-wise (*cough*Kuroyume and Gazette again sorry*cough*)  can end up as equally bad, so it doesn't really matter who did your songs - credits are obviously imporant to mention, and arrangement is the key point of "good song" tbqh (well, at least it's a obvious choice for me) - you could make a good composition with decent lyrics, but with sloppy arrangement, you won't definitely please anyone...

 

As a case in point (I apologize beforehand for straying off-topic): imagine if songs by lynch. were performed by a different band representing the same sound, but with more intact/less sloppy performance (+ good mixing). Big difference, huh?

[nekkichi 6043]

As a case in point (I apologize beforehand for straying off-topic): imagine if songs by lynch. were performed by a different band representing the same sound, but with more intact/less sloppy performance (+ good mixing). Big difference, huh?

you've basically summed up why everyone loves deathgaze so much and has consistently lukewarm lynch expectations lol

[keyinjpop 89]

Credit should be given to those who actaully did the lyrics, composition, arrangement.

 

As one person above said, it would be nice if the vocalist wrote their own lyrics since they would be singing their views/thoughts but I can imagine how difficult it would be to form those especially taking into account the instrumental so ghostwriters are understandable.

 

Also, did anyone hear about the Samuragoch guy's scandal?

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/03/07/national/deaf-composer-samuragochi-says-hes-sorry-for-deceiving/#.U0NNrvldWSo

[miyuu 40]

the most important is to give credit.

 

when you don't write them you are just a beautiful voice.

when you write your own songs you can express yourself through your music. is more interesting to me.

i find so much more interesting an artist that expresses himself than just a beautiful voice. i tend to love more artists as a whole and not just voices.

but that's just me. the majority in pop culture just loves voices i think.

 

in my country pop singers is common to not write their own lyrics or music but some of the composers and lyricists get famous  and succesful as song writers that are able to write songs that sell. and actually few of them run the scene and write for many famous singers. people know their name.the singers credit them.

 

but what i understand from this is people who usually do not write their own music most of the times their main aim is to sell , the money and to entertain people

at night clubs and they care more about the commercial value .

while people who write their own music  tend to care also about the artistic value.

[nekkichi 6043]

Also, did anyone hear about the Samuragoch guy's scandal?

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/03/07/national/deaf-composer-samuragochi-says-hes-sorry-for-deceiving/#.U0NNrvldWSo

 

lmao, what a great reminder on how messy & ridiculous japanese media personalities can be at times

[relentless 254]

Some people seem to believe that creating (commercial) music is solely the work of the band members. But in reality this is not the case. They have ignored how many people have worked behind the scenes of an album that are put into the market. Music is a product to make money, it would be crazy if labels didn't treat it seriously.

 

This should only be in consideration of Pop (Popular) Music, as Art Music does not revolve around commercial sales to progress.

 

 

 

 

The only thing I have a problem with is as Bear described, people who pass work off as their own; but have been lying the entire time (a Japanese Composer recently confessed to doing this). My preference is for one person (Composer) or a band to write their own material; but if they need to use ghost writers it should be explicitly stated.

[susel 31]

if we talk about bands playing songs not written by them - I'm completely ok with that. When they give credit it's excellent, they get a huge respect from me, yet the only band I know that does this is D=out. But they are clever, they take pretty popular songs and make covers and I'm completely ok with that, because you know what? They make that song theirs. They alter the sound, they alter the lyrics, they readjust and rearrange and add some beat and it turns into a different product. The product that I will like and listen to, because I like dauto's style and Kouki's voice and Reika's roaring bass.

 

And that's why I'm also ok with the phenomena of ghost writers that aree not given credit. Cause ghost writer is not a ghost band. He/she may write the lead melody, but it will be done on guitar or piano, and drum'n'bass will be added on computer programm and once the band receive that song they WILL alter it. The drummer will readjusst his part and bassist too and guitarists will split their parts, play rewrite, and then the vocalist and arrangement and production, etc. They will play it live and it will change even more. And bit by bit they will also make that song theirs.    

And when they write their own songs it goes the other way round, one guy from the band might be responsible for the demo but not the final product and yet no one rants about that when his name is indicated in the booklet. So what in all that mess will mean some stranger's name on a booklet for me? Not much. It is not that person's voice that sings the song, not that person energy that will drive me crazy during performance. If that person has received his payement and is ok with not being credited I'm also ok with my illusions. (Plagiarism is a whole different matter though)

 

But that is the case if we're talking about a real band that write the majority of their songs and take ghostwriters as an emergency and not constantly. But seriously though who expects these bands to constantly rely on ghost writers when they aproximately release like 2 singles 1 album\minialbum a year? It will be far cheaper and safer to write some crap by their own hand or make a mix/remix/another version/voiceless to fill the space. And that's what most of my beloved bands do. And I'm ok with that as well  

 

 

Though I must admit I'm not this careless when it comes to lyrics. I expect my fav.vocalists to write their own stuff and create their own world even if it means encountering horrible English and singing along the lines like 'sleep with my mother' lol

[violetchain 912]

Though I must admit I'm not this careless when it comes to lyrics. I expect my fav.vocalists to write their own stuff and create their own world even if it means encountering horrible English and singing along the lines like 'sleep with my mother' lol

It's great if they can, but personally, I don't believe that a singer has to be able to write lyrics. The thing that matters to me is whether or not the singer connects with the emotion of the song.

 

I think if you can't write (good) lyrics, it's perfectly okay to let someone else help you. Some people struggle to express themselves with words, and IMO it's better to let another band member or outside writer take care of it than it is to ruin good songs with awful, half-assed lyrics.

[susel 31]

It's great if they can, but personally, I don't believe that a singer has to be able to write lyrics. The thing that matters to me is whether or not the singer connects with the emotion of the song.

 

I think if you can't write (good) lyrics, it's perfectly okay to let someone else help you. Some people struggle to express themselves with words, and IMO it's better to let another band member or outside writer take care of it than it is to ruin good songs with awful, half-assed lyrics.

ah, sorry, I surely didn't mean it like that. It is perfectly fine if the lyricist is not the vocalist, what I meant is - if there might be a situation where it'll be revealed that one of bands I like used ghost composer/lyricist, I'll get more upset about the ghostlyricist revelation 

[violetchain 912]

^Ah okay, that makes way more sense.

[beni 2149]

Literally the first band and only band I thought of when I saw this thread was One Direction. x'D The only problem I have with such artists is calling them a 'band.' Going back to OD for a moment, they're called a 'boy band.' They don't write their lyrics, nor do they play the instruments themselves (unless this has changed since they first debuted). I don't call them a 'boy band' for this reason, more like a unit. Golden Bomber is my Japanese example of this, even though I'm sure most'll agree with me on both as examples. But...

 

If the music is good I'll listen to it.

 

^ Agreed. So this has never been a problem to me. It's mostly a bit annoying to see/hear the credit not getting to the right people at times, much like how Vocaloid is usually talked about. I look at the producers more so than the Vocaloids used, and some fans I've talked to in person don't even know any producers.