Ghostwritten songs, "idol kei" and VK industry of the late 2010's

[saiko 429]

I've been wanting to discuss this topic for a long time. Fundamentally since, in the last ten years or so, the ratio of what in this forum has been called "formulaic VK stuff" has increased considerably, which, on the other hand it is closely linked to a phenomenon that has also recently appeared, and that in this forum has been called "idol kei". Of course, as many here quote repeatedly, the abandonment of adolescence does not cease to be a powerful motive in this situation, since it makes the condition of possibility (necessary, though not sufficient) so that one can remove the veils of idealization deposited on certain music or artist (and realize how badly done or executed some productions were; for me an example of it was Ryohei-era ayabie). Finally, in the verge of the end of the decade, another reason is my concern about the fate of the VK in the 2020's, considering that since the second half of the '10 has not thrown some real "quality" or "novelty", something that can be established at the level of "classic", as it actually happened with some releases put out in the period of 2008-2013.

 

It is not easy to discuss all these issues, I imagine, for several issues: perhaps it can hurt the emotions of some users of this forum who, in fact, are very comfortable enjoying the said idealization of certain artists. On the other hand, talking about this with some minimum measure of ownership requires a listening by a broad repertoire of VK, which has at least something from each of its eras (at least the "classics"). And also, it requires some knowledge (at least intuition) about aspects related to composition, instrumental performance, recording, live performance, the dynamics of the consumer market, etc.

 

As, to my pleasant surprise, I have found in this forum people who speak (or at least try) from this knowledge, is that I come to open this thread here in MH. Anyway, I hope that no one is deprived of writing here, contributing from what he/she has and his/her interests.

 

I think that it is best to start on by discussing some basic concepts, instead of directly delving into anything else:

 

1) What are the indicators that make a song "ghostwritten" for you? And that it is not?

2) What are the indicators that make a band "idol kei"? And that it is not?

3) Where would you put its birth date?

4) Do they qualify as "good music" or not? Do you enjoy them? Do not? 

5) Does it seem to you that this certain music goes "against" (to put it somehow) of certain "well-being" of the scene, or of the music itself?

6) Why are you still listening to VK in the 2010s? Are your reasons the same as before? What does it give you that other music does not give you?

 

I read you!

[Miku70 214]

I reply  your questions

 

1) I don't know , maybe the company is known for use ghostwritters because they have no clues.

2) They infuence by KPOP , or the band sing and dancing like by A9. Really I don't know.

3) Born of Visual Kei.

4) For me good music , I don't like it because I love music who feel many emotions ...

 

5)  I like and I love the music itself.

 

6) I listen visual kei since 2000's and I listen some band since 2010's . This music bring many things during my teenage years because I suffered school harrasment. So it's a another world for.me and I have hapiness.  During my highscool, I have no friend because I was very shy and I was so difficult to incorporate to a group.  So this music help me and feel's better. This music help me to support  the death of people of my family. At the moment, I have some friends ☺️. Nowadays, this music help me for my studies and my difficult moment. I look for band who enjoy their music and their stuff and this is the principal for me 🙂.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Miku70

[yomii 834]

ummm excuse me but could anyone explain me the idol kei thing please? 

[Miku70 214]

3 minutes ago, yomii said:

ummm excuse me but could anyone explain me the idol kei thing please? 

Maybe it's the look who look like KPOP or JPOP bands.

 

Or maybe the band who sings and dance during their live, just like A9 , for two songs .

[suji 8317]

6 minutes ago, yomii said:

ummm excuse me but could anyone explain me the idol kei thing please? 

golden bomber

[nekkichi 6043]

1 hour ago, saiko said:

1) What are the indicators that make a song "ghostwritten" for you?

being a part of gackt's discrography is a good sign x

 

29 minutes ago, yomii said:

ummm excuse me but could anyone explain me the idol kei thing please? 

there's a general idea of what that could mean (as in a bunch of no-talent dudes thrown together by their management who micromanages everything and goes as far as openly hiring composers for the band), but op already lumped duel jewel under that definition because of hostey-looking revival photo so idk what they really mean by that

[BrenGun 2261]

30 minutes ago, suji said:

golden bomber

kousai ravel 

[yomii 834]

ok, i think i grasped the concept more or less but i can't remember any other examples of so-called idol kei bands. maybe it's because i don't pay any attention to such bands? i really couldn't care less about both a9 in their current state and golden bomber.

34 minutes ago, nekkichi said:

openly hiring composers

thank you for thorough explanation! and what bands openly don't play their own music? i've heard only smth about arlequin and some other goemon label.

 

1 hour ago, saiko said:

considering that since the second half of the '10 has not thrown some real "quality" or "novelty", something that can be established at the level of "classic", as it actually happened with some releases put out in the period of 2008-2013.

been thinking about this some time ago too, i'm concerned about if we have bands who will be able to replace big shots such as gazette, mucc and so on? but i think it's too early to draw conclusions. also i don't agree that there were no classics released after 2013, the same chedoara drew so much attention i don't think it would be forgotten so easily.

 

now the questions

1) if there's no proof i won't say the music was ghostwritten

2) since i didn't knew a thing about idol kei until an hour ago maybe i shouldn't talk too much about it w i find nekkichi's definition very reasonable though, since that's kinda what idol phenomenon is about. 

3) idk cause i've only heard about hiring composers for arlequin and some other goemon band.

4) aaand since i've heard about arlequin having ghostwriters i was pretty much salty about them. i wasn't impressed by their music before that either, so i decided just not to fuck with them at all., but then i had to give them a listen during a trade-off and it was a solid song, not the one i would go crazy about but it was okay. and the thing i liked most in it was vocal, and i hope it was the voice of the actual vocalist ww so i'm not too hard on them now, but i'd still prefer that rock bands wrote music themselves.

5) like i said before, i don't like ghostwriting in rock music. for me rock of any kind still means some kind of rebel, and there's no rebel in playing what someone other wrote for you. not all vk bands are rock bands though, so my explanation isn't very accurate, but i hope you get what i mean.

6) i've had a break from vk for a couple of years, and still here i am, so i can say vk means really a lot for me. the reason i've returned to this mess is it resonates with me . like, i think it's pretty obvious what vk can give me what other music can't. i'm speaking not only about the visual aspect, but like have you heard something like lolita23q, nightmare, 9gbo and so on? i know vk is inspired by other genres but the final product is unique. but of course visuals are important too, not because these boys are cute but because people create a certain image, a fantasy, and i love how people are making themselves pieces of living art.

 

[diryangrey 121]

51 minutes ago, yomii said:

what bands openly don't play their own music?

not always this obv but check out these two songs by definitely different bands which are definitely written by different people

youtube.com/watch?v=ltiqDDlqDYA
youtube.com/watch?v=x9PJZlUJtyQ

[yomii 834]

12 minutes ago, diryangrey said:

not always this obv but check out these two songs by definitely different bands which are definitely written by different people

youtube.com/watch?v=ltiqDDlqDYA
youtube.com/watch?v=x9PJZlUJtyQ

oh, i totally forgot about avelcain cuz i love both eve's works and avelcain concept so i feel completely comfortable with listening to the band.

[Komorebi 2193]

1) Not like there's proof in VK, but the speed at which some bands pump out releases and the repetition/overuse of riffs and other elements can be a sign of ghostwriting. Also, when you see kids in the scene who aren't that good playing on stage yet are credited for what they play makes me wonder if they really did write it.
 

2) I think the whole scene is idol kei now. The way bands are put together, managed and marketed is very idol-ish. I'd say VK bands that are less "idol" would be those who put out releases less often, don't focus their sales on cheki and spend more time touring than doing fan-meet events.
 

3) When was the first instore? Not sure when VK evolved into what it is today, but I'm sure it was a while ago.
 

4) What is good music? I think there is good music and bad music in VK, just like in any other genre. And personal enjoyment does not atone for quality. I may not enjoy Morrie, Sukekiyo or Kiyoharu's works, but it is undeniably good music. Whereas I may like a lot of indie artists I consider to be musically mediocre. All in all, if I didn't enjoy VK I wouldn't be here.
 

5) VK does not rely that heavily on the music genre to survive. As long as there's scantly dressed pretty men wooing teen fans into spending their yen, the "well-being" of the scene is preserved. As overseas fans, we focus mainly on the music, because it is really all we can focus on, out of all VK has to offer as a scene. In Japan it is slightly different. You could enjoy the social experience, the fan events, the fashionable aspect, idk.

 

6) Because I have shitty music taste? LOL. I can't remember how I even got so hooked on this scene. It gives me versatility in a way many western rock artists don't. Bands don't always stick to a genre and blend a lot of styles to find their own. I don't know much about music theory but I know Japan uses a distinct... scale? for writing their music and I find it pleasant to my ears. I also tend to focus  a lot on bass and vocals. For the first, I've found more interesting bass-lines in Japan than overseas, where it tends to be a filler instrument. And for the latter... Have you seen those "sounds just like Ruki" comments on various YouTube videos? Well, they do, because Japanese men tend to have a similar vocal range that just happens to tickle my fancy. There's also the thing that with Japanese I can easily ignore corny lyrics because I simply do not fully understand them. I don't look them up either, I can live without knowing if I'm being insulted.
I come from the pop/rock scene, never really went through a western punk/metal phase in my teens year. I grew on 80's rock and 90's pop and I got used to catchy sounds accompanied by guitars, and it's what I look for in VK; poppy choruses with clean vocals and harsh instrumentals + lyrics I don't have to feel embarrassed about. Something that western metal and pop often fail to give me. The visuals aren't really that important to me, since I never watch PVs, but the androgynous beauty pleases me a lot when I do want to watch it tbh. As a big plus, I greatly enjoy the whole VK culture in Japan. I gotta say I love going to a small gig without being pushed around by huge dudes or drowning in the stench of weed and going to instore events and such.

[Komorebi 2193]

27 minutes ago, diryangrey said:

not always this obv but check out these two songs by definitely different bands which are definitely written by different people

youtube.com/watch?v=ltiqDDlqDYA
youtube.com/watch?v=x9PJZlUJtyQ

Or these two

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv6Yi144KAM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py3K3AcC5VM

 

 

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

Ghostwriting isn't "stealing from the bands you idolize," so I'm not on board with the Vexent example for how it was framed. For example, it has also been rumored that Grieva had ghost writers, even though 80% of their early works were Diru covers. However, the suspicion didn't rise from what was being written, so much as how much was. They churned out basically an album-a-year's worth of material, and 2 out of 3 full lengths featured no singles or rerecordings. The same more or less went for Gossip, except theirs did feature old songs; however, they also released 3 albums, 4 singles, and a mini-album in 2 years (plus went on a 107-stop tour(!) ). Riddle me how the fuck someone has time to compose 30~45 songs while also being in a different city every night.

 

The rumor mill surrounding ghost writers has been a lingering specter ever since that "ex-vkei record executive SLAMS Dynamite Tommy in the gooch" interview surfaced in 2008~2010 (it's a fun read). At one point he or she states that record labels like Matina would ghost-write all of their lesser bands' material in an effort to keep their branding consistent and because the bandmen themselves are actually dimwits who can't make music and just want to be a rockstar for 3 years, then ""retire"" to become a hedge fund manager.

 

Aside from #thatArticle, I have not personally seen actual proof of this practice, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of cases ended up being true. Tell-tale signs from me include too much material too fast, or if their sound dramatically changes (read: improves) once they get signed. 

 

 

 

For the rest of the questions:

 

2- I'm not entirely sure what this means. In the past, I've referred to groups like Shounenki and the like as "host-kei" because of the emphasis on tame, yet androgynous pretty boy aesthetic, but I'm not sure if this counts as "idol-kei."

 

3- December 25th, 0

 

4- Music is a lot better if you don't get too caught up in the marketability of it. If it's good, it's good. If it's not, it's not.

 

5- Considering nothing sells (re: 3 major vkei-focused music brands closing and Oricon summing up yearly sales for 2018 with most top-20 releases not even breaking 3,000 sales (and one (1) item breaking 10k sales), I'm hoping that it's popular enough to keep the scene afloat.

 

6-If I like something, I tend to always like it. The scene still has stuff in it that I enjoy, and a lot of stuff that seemed lost to time spring up now and again, so there are even new things from ~the good ole days~ if you know where to look.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Peace Heavy mk II

[yomii 834]

51 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

Or these two

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv6Yi144KAM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py3K3AcC5VM

 

 

i see your point, these two are really similar! but still, there are such things as rip-off, inspiration or simply songwriting cliches and i'd prefer not to accuse a band of ghostwriting or stealing without having proofs. if i'm uncomfortable with what i hear, i just won't listen to the song again and forget about it in a couple of minutes

[Gesu 1537]

4 hours ago, saiko said:

1) What are the indicators that make a song "ghostwritten" for you? And that it is not?

2) What are the indicators that make a band "idol kei"? And that it is not?

3) Where would you put its birth date?

4) Do they qualify as "good music" or not? Do you enjoy them? Do not? 

5) Does it seem to you that this certain music goes "against" (to put it somehow) of certain "well-being" of the scene, or of the music itself?

6) Why are you still listening to VK in the 2010s? Are your reasons the same as before? What does it give you that other music does not give you?

1. Well, I agree with @yomii's point of not accusing a song of ghostwriting until I know for sure that it is. Better to let a guilty person go than to condemn an innocent person (in my eyes, at least).

2. I guess "idol kei" is a somewhat broad and debatable term, but when I first saw this term used, I assumed it meant simply generic and mass-produced instead of created from individual passion, so I'll go with that. To me, the indicators of an idol kei band would be nowt more than bland looks and music, possibly accompanied by some quickly overused gimmick (*cough cough* face reveals *cough cough cough*) and a relatively short, forgettable career.

3. Difficult for me to say, as I wasn't active in the community again until about last year. I took a bit of a break and I didn't really find out anything that was going on at the time. As much as I'd like to try, it'd be pretty much impossible for me to pin a date on this.

4. By definition, no. If it's bland, I won't care for it. Everyone's definitions of "bland" are different from each other, so if I personally find something that fits my description of the word, then I won't like it. There are, of course, bands forming today that I do like. For example, SHiSHi are pretty much one of my favourites already. Also, whatever happened to Blue Blood Boa? That one song I heard from them was fantastic. Please tell me I didn't simply miss anything from them. But I digress...

5. For me, personally? Somewhat. Just because something doesn't adhere to my tastes, that doesn't mean for sure that it's hurting the music scene, however I do have a very low opinion of ghostwriting, so if that is indeed the case and I see cold, hard proof of that fact, then it's a cold, hard yes.

6. Because I'm a young'un who didn't discover it until the 2010s! To answer the last point of "what does it give me", that's actually quite difficult to say. Obviously, the visual aspect caught twelve-year-old me's attention because the arse-end of England doesn't exactly have an abundance of middle-aged men with animoo hairstyles who look prettier than women in their twenties, but it's the musical aspect that's more important to me, and as long as there are existing/disbanded bands who formed some time ago that I love (e.g. Moran, Sugar, DIAURA, etc) and the odd band forming every now and again that can really hold my attention (SHiSHi probably being the best example of this), I'm going to stay. I guess you could say I came for the hot guys and I stayed for the great music, so if the music does indeed turn completely stale (which, tbh, probably won't happen because I don't think there's ever a 100% terrible music genre), I'll go somewhere else... although I can't think where. I genuinely cannot imagine what kind of music I could get properly into like I have J-rock, and I am not going back to my emo phase. People see my hair and they think I'm still in it sometimes, but they shoulda seen me back then 😮 hoo, boy.

 

Anyways, I've spent longer typing this than I probably should have and now my dinner's likely getting cold.

[monkeybanana4 1732]

1) What are the indicators that make a song "ghostwritten" for you? And that it is not?

I don't think there's any obvious smoking gun that screams "ghostwritten songs!", but there are some bands, like others have already mentioned, that definitely feel like they've had their material 'ghostwritten'. One big factor would be the continuous output of releases in a relatively short amount of time.

 

2) What are the indicators that make a band "idol kei"? And that it is not?

I guess it depends on how you define the term, idol. But, I would say, more or less, the scene has pretty much been inundated with 'idolness' for quite sometime. When you look at the way things are sold (i.e. receiving trading cards or photosets of certain members with CD purchases, buying chekis of a particular member, etc.), it pretty much screams the 'idol' factor. Although, there are certain bands, though, that tend to focus more on selling live goods, chekis, and even food products. VK has been known for providing weirdly, awesome, even grotesque goodies, but I see some bands who lean more on the side of 'goods/products' rather than 'CDs/music'. (Also, I know CDs are considered goods/products. However, in this case, I'm defining goods/products like chekis, photosets, photocards, towels, shirts, etc.)

 

3) Where would you put its birth date?

I'm not sure of an exact date, but as @Komorebi already answered, I think it began when these instore or personal meet-and-greet events launched off. When you go to those events, it mirrors exactly what Japanese idol pop groups do (minus the rock music). You can "meet" your favorite artist and chat with them in exchange for buying their stuff. It's what Japanese idols outside of VK have been doing for much longer.

 

4) Do they qualify as "good music" or not? Do you enjoy them? Do not? 

Music, like any other art, is subjective, so I suppose it depends on what the listener enjoys and defines as "good music". Even though I may not listen to certain bands, there is definitely a crowd out there who will continue to support their favorite artists.

 

5) Does it seem to you that this certain music goes "against" (to put it somehow) of certain "well-being" of the scene, or of the music itself?

I think @Komorebi provided a great answer for this question. For fans like most of us on MH, whose butts are firmly parked outside of Japan, we can only listen and focus on the music. It's not a bad thing, and I think music should be examined for the sake of music to expand one's knowledge/tastes/etc. However, when you live in Japan, being in the VK scene is a completely different ballgame. There is an entire social scene that is built into the VK scene. I guess because the scene is 'small' that there are many who become friends since they recognize each other from attending the same lives, instore events, etc. for the same band(s), and it's a way for these dedicated group of friends to spend time together. Also, as mentioned already by @Komorebi, there is also a whole fashion scene related to VK. Even though it's shrunk with many brands shutting down, there are still stores like Sex Pot Revenge that market to people who admire and dress up in the VK fashion style, possibly even wanting to emulate or cosplay as their favorite artist/band member. There are also many girls who dress up in Lolita clothes and really go all out to look nice for lives. In a way, I guess VK, to some, is not so much a music genre, but rather a subculture. So, I think as long as there's androgynous musicians willing to play music and cater to the fanbase, then the VK scene will survive.

 

6) Why are you still listening to VK in the 2010s? Are your reasons the same as before? What does it give you that other music does not give you?

Like @yomii I stopped listening to VK for a few years, but I've recently gotten back into it, and I still thoroughly enjoy it even with all its warts and splotches. I think it's because VK has helped me shape a part of who I am, including my passions (i.e. collecting CDs from mediocre-sounding artists, studying about culture, people, history, and meeting/chatting with people who share the same interests). I also enjoy the fashion of VK and its close ties to it because, in a way, I feel like it's not only the music, but it's also the clothes and makeup that help make the whole scene artistic. So, I find there's plenty to enjoy with both new bands to listen to and older/disbanded bands to still discover.     (Wow, I wrote way too much... ^^;) 

[Zeus 7997]

4 hours ago, saiko said:

I've been wanting to discuss this topic for a long time. Fundamentally since, in the last ten years or so, the ratio of what in this forum has been called "formulaic VK stuff" has increased considerably, which, on the other hand it is closely linked to a phenomenon that has also recently appeared, and that in this forum has been called "idol kei". Of course, as many here quote repeatedly, the abandonment of adolescence does not cease to be a powerful motive in this situation, since it makes the condition of possibility (necessary, though not sufficient) so that one can remove the veils of idealization deposited on certain music or artist (and realize how badly done or executed some productions were; for me an example of it was Ryohei-era ayabie). Finally, in the verge of the end of the decade, another reason is my concern about the fate of the VK in the 2020's, considering that since the second half of the '10 has not thrown some real "quality" or "novelty", something that can be established at the level of "classic", as it actually happened with some releases put out in the period of 2008-2013.

Nothing that I put in bold is recent. Visual kei has been boy band metal for as long as visual kei has existed, just the appeal and the market has changed in and around it. Remember that visual kei takes lots of cues and inspiration from glam metal, which was boy band metal from the 80s. Formulaic visual kei has also been around almost as long as the scene has; it is just the formula has changed as well to adapt to changing markets. Take any decade of music and you can see this in action. 

I made it through the roughest part of the scene so far (end of 00s to early 10s) where the momentum within the scene seemingly contracted and the fifteen minutes of fame had passed, and that was the most prime moment for the ceiling to fall and the scene to die. It didn't. Thus, I'm not too worried about the "fate of visual kei". Visual kei is resilient and it will adapt into whatever form that it needs to to survive. Us being here 12 years is proof of that. I would be more concerned if your ~flavor~ of visual kei survives the next decade. It won't, but perhaps what rises out of the ashes will still appeal to you? I'm an old head who prefers songs from the 90s and early 00s, but I can find music in every time period that I like! If you still like visual kei in ten years, you'll have new favorites. I guarantee it.

But of course, this isn't about the future of visual kei; it's about ghost writing. I'm sure the scene has a few ghost writers, more than one could optimistically hope for and less than one would pessimistically believe. I also have the unpopular opinion that the scene would be taken more seriously as a whole if more bands hired ghost writers. Not to plug my own work here, but my Copy/Paste series is all about finding musical similarities that pop up again and again and it's way too easy to take a currently active band and find a riff they took from a popular band 5 to 6 years ago. A lot of new bands today look to bands of the past for inspiration and it bleeds through to their music, but it's not doing enough to push the scene forward. The homogenization of the scene is doing a lot more to affect the sound of visual kei than everyone tapping the same ghost writer for new material. This kind of homogenization can also be seen in disparate industries like AAA video games and block buster movies, where studios would rather stick with something safe and deliver guaranteed profits rather than try something new, potentially fail, and lose money. I think we are seeing the same thing here, don't you agree?

What you bring up at the end of this paragraph is one hell of a revelation, so I'll have to quote it again:
 

4 hours ago, saiko said:

Finally, in the verge of the end of the decade, another reason is my concern about the fate of the VK in the 2020's, considering that since the second half of the '10 has not thrown some real "quality" or "novelty", something that can be established at the level of "classic", as it actually happened with some releases put out in the period of 2008-2013.

I certainly cannot think of a classic from the last decade off the top of my head as easily as I can one from the decade before that, but a lot of that has to do with time. Time, no matter how small, is required for an album to transcend to classic status. Classics are defined by the effect that they have on music that hasn't been made yet, so unless you have magical future seeing powers it's hard to know what will stand the test of time for sure. Classics also have a personal angle to it; something can be a classic to you and not to the scene at large. It can also go in reverse. Albums can be considered classics by consensus, even though very few people may listen to said album on a regular basis (example: Art of Life by X JAPAN is a ~classic~, but when is the last time anyone sat down to listen to all 30 minutes of it?). A lot of albums were also given "classic" status years ago that definitely didn't stand the test of time. illational by THE EIGHT is my favorite example of this, and if your first response is "who is that?" then my point has been proven.

I wouldn't worry too much about not having classics from this time period now, because bands are still proving themselves. Come back in five years and I am sure that generating a list will be way easier. You could have asked me this question in 2012 and I would have been completely unable to answer your question. Now, I'm only partially unable

 

5 hours ago, saiko said:

1) What are the indicators that make a song "ghostwritten" for you? And that it is not?

2) What are the indicators that make a band "idol kei"? And that it is not?

3) Where would you put its birth date?

4) Do they qualify as "good music" or not? Do you enjoy them? Do not? 

5) Does it seem to you that this certain music goes "against" (to put it somehow) of certain "well-being" of the scene, or of the music itself?

6) Why are you still listening to VK in the 2010s? Are your reasons the same as before? What does it give you that other music does not give you?

To run through these questions rather quickly:

 

1. I never thought about this, but there could be a few good ones. Bands that pump out release after release and the styles of the release are all over the place. If the band sounds like 3 or 4 people with different musical affinities are writing the music, that's because it probably is. Liner credits can also be a dead giveaway, especially if the band doesn't have any, but bands are also known to lie on those so they aren't always reliable. 
    
2. It's not a perfect definition, but bands that obviously care more about looks than music are definitely idol kei. Visuals are important, but visuals are just a medium to sell music and concepts. If your Photoshop is on point but your music sounds like it was recorded in the gutter, you are "idol kei" in my eyes. If you have a ton of money for intricate outfits, but complain about fans not spending enough money, you're probably "idol kei". If a band has one core member and other members that can be exchanged interchangeably, that would be considered "idol kei" to me.
    
3. Same day as visual kei was born.
    
4. I think the argument over whether ghost writers produce "good music" is all subjective. That's why it is in quotes. Logically speaking, someone hired to write and produce mass amounts of music is supposed to be good at their job by definition. Do I approve of ghost writers? Only when they do a good job and I don't think about it. Music is inherently collaborative; I'd rather have band members work with veterans and bounce ideas off of others to come to the best solution rather than DIY the whole process and come out with a diamond in the rough, or potentially something even more disastrous.
    
5. There are other things about the scene that hurt its well being more directly than having ghost writers. I'm sure most genres have artists that use ghost writers.
    
6. I'm still listening to visual kei because it provides me with sounds no other scene does. The sounds I like and the bands that follow change, but I'm still attracted to the overall sound. I actually don't care much about visuals at all tbh.

 

[Komorebi 2193]

1 hour ago, Peace Heavy mk II said:

Ghostwriting isn't "stealing from the bands you idolize," so I'm not on board with the Vexent example for how it was framed. For example, it has also been rumored that Grieva had ghost writers, even though 80% of their early works were Diru covers. However, the suspicion didn't rise from what was being written, so much as how much was. They churned out basically an album-a-year's worth of material, and 2 out of 3 full lengths featured no singles or rerecordings. The same more or less went for Gossip, except theirs did feature old songs; however, they also released 3 albums, 4 singles, and a mini-album in 2 years (plus went on a 107-stop tour(!) ). Riddle me how the fuck someone has time to compose 30~45 songs while also being in a different city every night.

I'll re-read this when my brain is fully functional again, but I kinda see where you are coming from. Thanks a lot for correcting/teaching us (me lol)!

 

 

[YuyoDrift 1540]

When did we refer to this era as "Idol Kei"?

 

I'll have to come back to this post when my jetlag is not so harsh but this is a great topic.

 

 

[Zeus 7997]

Is it an era or a pejorative? I thought it was a sarcastic term.

[saiko 429]

Perhaps we could move the discussion about ghostwriting to this thread. Recently I've been watching the topic pop up very often, so maybe many of you guys would like to talk about it.

 

Maybe we could start by each one making up a list of the artists or songs or whatever stuff you consider useful to explain to somebody how ghostwritten music looks like and how not-ghostwritten music differentiates from it.

 

In my case, I think I caught a nice example while yesterday looking up for old classic I've never had the chance to try. It was the case for baroque. The contrast between their A-sides before disbanding and after their comeback screams idolization so loud that I couldn't believe my ears.

 

 

 

 

One doesn't need critical music-listening skills to appreciate, in one hand, in the pre-come-back songs, the experimental nature of the trashy and psychedelic arrengments in every song (and what amazes me the most is that these songs, as A-sides, where intended to serve for promotional, commercial, issues!); and in the other hand, the almost complete submission of every musical arrange, and even their looks, to a very well-known, standarized, Johnny'sesque aesthetic, in order to appeal to the recent younger fandom. The differences are so abysmal, and kinda scary, imo... from early century neo-Tokyo punks, to creamy-sweaty-ribbon-shotacon manga characters...

 

Anyway, and don't willing to enter into much musical details, further than what can be clearly seen in the example above, I think an indication of not-ghostwritten could be the lack of imitation of a song style as a whole. Let's say, a not-ghostwritten song would be one that, although you could clearly identify well-known music trends in it (a punk sound, a nu metal sound, etc.), or even previously famous artists signature arrangments (a Sugizoesque kind of solo, etc.), still sounds fresh while displaying said features in a way that you definitely know it wasn't heard/seen before. Inspiration is always there, nobody creates something from nothingness itself, but that doesn't mean you can't make your own version of it and through that create something unique.

 

Here are some songs that I returned to after a long time not listening to them. After being triggered with the whole baroque thing, I started to look up for '01~'05 releases, and hell... say what we know, VK was always about dragging otaku girls into fandom while displaying androgynous looks, so it always had a commercial approach inherent to it, and also bandomen were all chinpira prostitutes who knowed little about playing actual music, blabla... all of that is true to an extent, but those facts shouldn't deny that there actually was people trying to express themselves in their own way, even if the results where amateur and unpolished, and even if they signed a major contract and started to make their sound and appearance more appealing to mainstream...

 

 

[Nighttime Jae 238]

This is a very good analysis and I don't have anything to add to that specifically, but I will say one thing: it seems like the general idea is that it's only the bands in the current scene that are basically labels' puppets who don't write their own music, and albeit this is definitely true in some cases, I feel like this has pretty much always been a thing in vk? I remember that interview from years ago from an insider in the industry talking about older bands of the 90's- early 00's, and there was talk about bands using ghost-writers even then.

 

In my opinion, if you wanna make sure that bands write their own music, stick to indies or at least follow the bands closely enough to know if they ever post about their composition process and stuff like that. Most bands I follow often post previews of the music they've been writing and stuff like that, so I don't even question it. That and of course pay attention to their evolution and sound and past bands and stuff like that, like most people have said. Basically, keep your eyes open.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Nighttime Jae

[saiko 429]

 

52 minutes ago, Nighttime Jae said:

In my opinion, if you wanna make sure that bands write their own music, stick to indies or at least follow the bands closely enough to know if they' ever post about their composition process and stuff like that. Most bands I follow often post their previews of the music they're writing and stuff like that, so I don't even question it. That and of course pay attention to their evolution and sound and past bands and stuff like that like most people have said. Basically, keep your eyes open.

Which current bands would you definitely say that make their own stuff by themselves?

[Nighttime Jae 238]

1 hour ago, saiko said:

 

Which current bands would you definitely say that make their own stuff by themselves?

I made a list recently about a lot of bands I follow in the Osaka scene, which is where my field of knowledge lies. Out of those, I can 100% attest that Clack inc., Ultimate Sonic, Doku and Visual Laboratory write their own stuff, but I think the rest do as well. I'm a bit on the fence for Hueye, simply because their style seemed to have changed a bit in the latest singles compared to their first one and it became a bit more... run of the mill vk band. But I wanna give them the benefit of the doubt. Other names that come to mind are Paradigm and Dobe. I'm sure there are many others.

 

On 5/2/2020 at 8:55 PM, Nighttime Jae said:

Off the top of my head: Clack inc., Doku, Lamiya, Micbam, Clack inc., JE:NOVA, Ultimate Sonic, Visual Laboratory, Hueye, Astaroth, nurié, Marvelous Cruelty.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Nighttime Jae

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

I think in the case of Hueye, it seems like less of "someone is writing the music for them" and more "they're being heavily produced / guided to be portrayed a certain way". A release every 6 months really isn't astronomically overbearing, but people are quick to compare them to Mejibray and I can't help but feel that was done on purpose.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Peace Heavy mk II