My Opinion on Nocturnal Bloodlust`s Recent Remarks and Actions against `Piracy`

[kyoselflove 2680]

I've always said. Mac is a girl's computer, iPhone is a white girl's phone, and iTunes is their mall. 

 

WTF did I just read?

[Zeus 7997]

WTF did I just read?

 

An opinion from someone who doesn't like Apple products. There's nothing else to it.

[Augie1995 325]

No, I like Apple products. I have an ipod touch and I use iTunes. I hate the iPhone though. I was just building up a certain analogy to show the sort of target audience you mostly see apple products get. It was to build up to how iTunes has always aimed towards the "higher society" in their eyes and why iTunes isn't the best place for the music.

[relentless 254]

First, I've always found it fascinating how so many different bands can have a different stance on this issue. You'd think that in the music industry, every band would speak out against piracy; but that is nowhere near the case. There are bands (often Japanese bands) that go on about how downloading music is ruining their lives; but then there are others that have a "fuck it" mentality. I can't even count the amount of times I've been to a show where the vocalist has said "Buy our new album, pirate it, I don't care, just listen to it". Why is this? It could be any amount of factors including personal views, record label pressure, and anything else that I can't think of at the top of my head.

 

 

 

The issue, which many have touched on here, is the archaic model of signing bands to contracts, releasing albums, and basing sales performance on the longevity of the band. This is a model that has been going all the way back to the 50's and 60's -- why are we still employing a model that is ~60 years old, in a world that is vastly different from that time? Sure, the business model of these big record labels worked when availability was scarce; but today we have access to so much information at the click of a button, that the old model becomes even more irrelevant. As with all businesses, they must adapt or fail. As it stands right now, the music industry is intent on fighting a fight that can not be won.

 

 

I sure as hell don't have the answers; but all I know is that the old way of doing things needs to be revised / completely overhauled to suit an age where not only are bands a dime-a-dozen; but their access and interaction with the consumer is far greater than it has ever been, thus direct distribution becomes an attractive method instead of dealing with binding contracts from record labels.

 

 

Or, Nocturnal Bloodlust could just stop making bad music and get people to want to buy their music / attend their shows. But to them, it's the world's problem, not theirs.

[nekkichi 6043]

I was just building up a certain analogy to show the sort of target audience you mostly see apple products get.

sis

[Furik 832]

sis

[nekkichi 6043]

EDUCATE HA

[Tetora 625]

Not even close to on-topic, can you please either post that in another forum or PM each other pics of your boyfriends instead?

Thank you.

[nekkichi 6043]

[apologetic off-t]I don't participate in other forums, and have no idea of where Furik could be posting aside from mh, so I rlly hope spoiler-tagging did its job of hiding content you otherwise would've preferred not to see.[/apologetic off-t]

[violetchain 912]

and if you can't buy the CD you have to buy the iTunes version (which is total bullshit imo because there's only a price difference of like 10$ and if you don't have the cash 10$ isn't going to make such a big difference).

It depends on which CD you're buying and where you're getting it from, I guess, but for most of the Japanese releases I've bought it was more like a $15-20 difference in price once you factor in shipping (at least in Canadian dollars), and you also get the music immediately instead of waiting weeks for it to come, so I do think it is worth it to buy off iTunes if you don't have that much money to spare.

 

I bought THE BEATMOTORS' mini-album "Subarashii ne" off iTunes for about $6. It would have been $20 with the cheapest possible shipping off CDJapan, and taken 3 weeks+ to get here.

 

I just wish iTunes purchases came with booklet scans.

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

Sometimes iTunes purchases do come with a PDF of the album booklet. I believe I have 3 or 4 of those, but that's usually if you only buy the 'deluxe edition' of things, and I've never ever seen it done for a visual-kei band on there.

[violetchain 912]

^Oh really? I hope that becomes a bit more common. I'm not so fond of having my room filled with CDs anymore, but I do miss booklets.

[seratonin 43]

I just wonder sometimes how can the japanese market(not only the music one) be so outdated. Every band out there in the west does album streams, or at least lets you listen to 2 or 3 tracks before the release. With japanese bands you may end up getting only 1:30 minutes of a PV and you will only be able to a full track if you buy it or illegally download it. In some bands it's even worse... Dir en grey only lets you listen to the chorus of the single. And there's also the bands that block their youtube content to countries that aren't japan.

 

The japanese seem to try really hard to make no one listen to their music. I know it's the country where they still use Fax, but pls japan 2014 already

idk if you've been to japan, but if you didn't, this may be why you may not understand.

Japanese are INSANELY and very sensitive to anything copyright related, and I don't know why. Anything from recording people to

taking pictures at a store (from personal experience) is forbidden, and with music, it's even much more of a copyright issue,

like Japan using youtube and restricting countries from viewing certain videos. It's not "backwards" or "outdated"...it's the

Japanese culture, something that has to be accepted when listening to music from Japan. I mean I do download so much japanese music,

but I also buy music from japan (as CD's ONLY - never low bitrates or itunes) and it makes me BROKE lol

[seratonin 43]

Do an ABX test between AAC and 320 or any lossless format. The results for many tests like this typically results in failure to recognize a difference. The engineers knows this and all they had to do was compress audio files enough such that it wasn't a burden for memory space on portable players, which I believe was Apple's target audience with the iPod products. The AAC codec is supposed to be one of the more elegant and transparent sounding codecs around, down to 128 even. I don't buy iTunes audio files myself but quality is not the reason for not considering them for purchase.

In personal experience, I can't tell difference between a real 320 and lossless, but I can most of the time differentiate between 320 and AAC, and AAC and lossless.

from personal experience, about 20% of itunes purchase just sound like a 64kbps recording, and the other 20% sounds like a 320. The rest 60%, the usual AAC,

sounds slightly worse than a good 320, but imo this difference is not negligible, I'd rather get a good 320. Mind you there are plenty of 320's out there that sound like 64kbps, but for this sake of conversation, i'm only talking about legit 320's

[Tetora 625]

In personal experience, I can't tell difference between a real 320 and lossless, but I can most of the time differentiate between 320 and AAC, and AAC and lossless.

from personal experience, about 20% of itunes purchase just sound like a 64kbps recording, and the other 20% sounds like a 320. The rest 60%, the usual AAC,

sounds slightly worse than a good 320, but imo this difference is not negligible, I'd rather get a good 320. Mind you there are plenty of 320's out there that sound like 64kbps, but for this sake of conversation, i'm only talking about legit 320's

Yeah, it depends on the song.

One example for me would be Girugamesh's MONSTER album, I downloaded an mp3 before my cd arrived, and it was hard to enjoy at higher volumes, or during a dense track with sharp highs and crunchy guitar like ANOTHER WAY, at first I was worried that the album wasnt recorded, mastered etc that well, but when I listened to a flac rip and then ripped my own it sounded a lot better.

But then there is stuff like some DIV releases where the range fits well into 256, 320 etc...

In the end there is always a trade-off when buying digital in one form or another, some greater than others.

We dont have perfect solutions, and neither do record labels atm, but atm I think the bitrate issue represents a minority in the debate, as I do not know that many people that actually know or care about audio quality. Physical sales goods in Japan are still driven by the actual physical existence, presentation and value of psychological fulfillment it brings to a customer. Digital sales are not as popular and our opinions on bitrate are not visibly presented to labels or digital service providers in any case.

I dont think people on one end know or see the value in the opinions against the statements made by NB, and I also think people on the other end are writing off what they said, and I personally think that as the creators themselves they should always be able to voice their opinions and feelings about how their product is being used, even if people dont agree. I would rather they speak up and keep the issue on the table rather than us all pretending that whenever you even search an album or single name downloads dont pop up.

[Zeus 7997]

idk if you've been to japan, but if you didn't, this may be why you may not understand.

Japanese are INSANELY and very sensitive to anything copyright related, and I don't know why. Anything from recording people to

taking pictures at a store (from personal experience) is forbidden, and with music, it's even much more of a copyright issue,

like Japan using youtube and restricting countries from viewing certain videos. It's not "backwards" or "outdated"...it's the

Japanese culture, something that has to be accepted when listening to music from Japan. I mean I do download so much japanese music,

but I also buy music from japan (as CD's ONLY - never low bitrates or itunes) and it makes me BROKE lol

 

Culture doesn't work as an explanation when piracy is a worldwide issue. I've never once given thought to how the Japanese feel about piracy when I download music and I never will. I'm too focused on my own country and their stance on piracy, which I also feel is just as outdated. If an industry is too stuck in their old model of conducting business to take advantage of the new model, then they are outdated. That's literally the definition.

 

This is the double-edged sword of capitalism. It stands for any industry in any country that relies on a business model that hasn't kept up with the times. Adapt or die. It seems that the labels are adamant about sticking with their sixty year old business model because it's "worked for so long". But decentralization of music distribution via the Internet has removed their stranglehold on what music we are exposed to. We can search for what we want, listen to what we want, form our own tastes, and never need to turn on the radio to hear an artist's new single. That's why we're all here. Labels have the resources and the connections to push artists, but they are not the de facto chairmen in charge anymore. They don't like that.

 

All of their waffling back and forth on this issue is smoke and mirrors to distract us from the real issue. At the end of the day, the Internet is a revolution they didn't anticipate and it has the potential to disrupt business. Nobody in power has the balls to tell these companies to change their approach like pretty much every other industry has past 1995. They'd rather try to pass draconian legislation to protect their interests than to defend and exploit new ideas such as turntable.fm, SoundCloud, Spotify, Bandcamp, or YouTube. They want us to meet them in their court instead of meeting us in the middle and we don't have to do that anymore. Labels don't have to do anything right now because they're still turning a profit, so the discussion won't change until they're no longer making a profit. If/Whenever that happens will be a very interesting day.

What I would really like to now is how much pressure Nokubura gets from their label to sell records, and also what percentage of music sales they get. I'm pretty confident that they make more money selling merchandise and tickets than they do from their CD sales, so I don't understand why Masa is so thirsty for money he won't get unless it directly impacts the future of the band with the label. They didn't seem to care much about piracy when they weren't a visual kei band.

Then again I still think they're a bunch of sellouts who turned visual kei because they thought Photochop and a couple of fancy wigs and terrible outfits would be enough to attract squealing fangirls en masse to throw money at them for their music. It looks like they're finding out the hard way that their rotating wardrobes takes a nice chunk out of whatever slim profits they're making. I'd laugh my ass off if they ever drop the visual kei aesthetics in the future when they discover that maintaining the image is too expensive in the long run.

[PumpkinPatches 48]

I'm sure I'm going to get shit for this.

 

Let's begin with a simple concept: Illegal downloading is illegal. This is not a moral statement, this is just a fact. More importantly, those who host copywritten materials are actually breaking more laws than those who download songs. This is not a debatable fact. Now, are the current modes of selling CDs and other music outdated? Yes, they are. Are there issues with a international-based way of purchasing music? Yes, that's undeniable. But is it illegal at this moment to take music that you did not create? Yes.

 

So, legally, Nocturnal Bloodlust does have a right to state that it is wrong for people to illegally download their music. So, they do have a right to say what they want, even if we disagree with it. Can they sue? Yeah, they can. Will they? Probably not, because I'm pretty sure they wanted to prove a point more than anything. Should they? Honestly, I don't think so, but it would definitely help bring changes to the way we see illegal downloading. Bands going after illegal downloading doesn't happen very much... and for a Japanese visual kei band to go against a foreign fanbase? Pretty much unheard of.

 

Now we get into the rest... like moral dilemmas.

 

But before we get there, it's important to cover what a CD sale (or MP3 sale) actually means. 

 

You're correct to assume that a CD sale does not go to the artist directly. Typically, the money goes to the label, and a portion of that income goes the the musician themselves. The label typically pays for the production of music (time at the studio, audio and visual equipment, artwork, mixing, raw production materials like CDs, jacket covers, etc.), the purchase of raw materials for the band itself (make up, costumes, equipment vans, sometimes actual equipment, etc.) the production of memorabilia and other goods, travel, food, airfare, payment of their staff (I'm not sure, but last time I saw Nocturnal Bloodlust they had three permanent staff. Their roadie, and two people from management) as well as payment for space at lives. 

 

In regards to the 'lives' payment, visual kei venues require you pay at the end of the night, after performing. It's not unheard of for small/medium venues to cost between ¥150000-¥500000 ($1500-5000) and you damn well better prepare to have that money on hand. At Taibans, yeah. It's split between the acts, but even then, that means you need to sell a lot of tickets. Why do you think a lot of band members sell at their own tables? Fans are far more willing to pay money to their favorite member than to a staff member... who'd have to be paid as well. 

 

I once saw an indies band back in 2012 at EDGE and then accidentally met their guitarist at Ikebukuro Station. He was actually debating on whether he should eat a bowl of ramen or walk the 4 kilometers home, because they were short that night and he had to give all the money he had in his wallet except for a ¥500 coin. I bought the guy a ramen cup because it was just so depressing. Bad nights happen, and if you don't have the money, don't be surprised if you have to actually dig it out of your own funds.

 

Then again, I lived across the street from 7-11 where a super indies bandman worked nights. Because most indies band members have to have two, sometimes three jobs. Hell, Natsu of Nocturnal Bloodlust worked in a 7-11 for a long time to pay for his band activities.

 

Being in a visual kei band is expensive. So, while sales don't go straight into the member's pockets, you can bet that they're just as important for the band to survive. A band can't make or sell music if they don't have the money to play or even record. 

 

I'll also put here that there is always complaining when a band disbands on here-- I've seen it time and time again people saying it isn't fair that an indies band disbanded, that they were such a huge fan of the music. But it never seems that we actually talk about why they disbanded. "They're not selling tickets or cds" is a good reason. In fact, one of the first comments on here was about how bands just conditionally disband if they're not doing well. We think that's stupid (or at least I do) but then when a band takes it into their own hands to say something about why people shouldn't illegally download their music, people throw a hissyfit. I don't understand the logic. If you want a band to survive, you buy the music. Because supporting the band you enjoy doesn't mean you make a few gifs and put them on tumblr, or draw fanart. We live in a time where, for musicians to thrive and actually continue with their activities, they need money.

 

Then you have to factor in the importance of selling CDs in a less understood way. Every time a sale of a cd is made, it shows the interest in the band. In Japan, charts are still important to knowing where a band stands. The better your sales doesn't just mean how many cds you sold, it directly effects how much advertising your next single or album receives. It can mean the difference between your video getting played on repeat on the tvs in Tower Records or getting shoved in with all the other releases. It directly reflects how many interviews the band receives offers from, how many spots they get on television, how many radio stations play the songs. We're not going to get into super big details in regards to marketing of visual kei, but it is extremely temperamental to the wants of the market.   

 

And here's where things get interesting: Visual kei isn't as popular as you would think. This is still a niche market not with an unlimited amount of funds, space, or attention. In an industry like that, you have to understand what it means for a band to lose out on a 'sale'. Even a handful of sales abroad DO matter to a band that's fighting for recognition.

 

Let's also talk about people requesting that a band travel abroad to play lives for foreign audiences. I don't think msot of you realize how expensive that is-- it's obscene. Let's talk about a 'normal' tour (like Dir en Grey, or D'espairsray for a second.) 

 

If a band wants to play in the US, they actually have to compete for visas. They have to prove the worth of their music and show that they are not going to affect the American music industry negatively. To get an entertainment or artist visa in the US, it's piles and piles and piles of paperwork, because the US goes out of its way to protect their music industry. The fees for getting a band to tour art astronomical on their own, but to tour the US? It's horrifying. That's actually why a lot of bands skip over the US and play in Europe. The visa requirements are far less stringent and it's cheaper.

 

This is why a lot of bands end up playing at conventions. It's typically cheaper for the band, because the convention has people who know the laws and are willing to pay the fees required. However, it isn't unheard of for bands to play on the promise of being paid when they arrive... and never getting paid. Or, not making the money they expected and being unable to recoup that money. And, during that time they're abroad, they aren't playing for their core audience, meaning... they're missing out on that much money. 

 

It's amazing how many times I've gone onto official youtube channels and seen the requests for a band to go abroad... and then see those same names pop up in filesharing places. Because guess what? The band sees that, too. They're tech savvy. They know where they're selling cds. They know where they're not selling cds. So, by looking at that, they can tell that they aren't selling enough in Europe, in the states, or wherever they are getting requests for lives from. And you know what that does? That influences the band against going abroad. They see that their cds aren't selling in that area, so they don't believe they would be able to recoup the money they spent on going abroad. They don't believe enough fans exist to pay for their visits. 

 

Illegal downloading is directly affecting who you get to see go on tour abroad. 

 

So while we can debate over how big of an asshole Masa is for saying that illegal downloading is wrong, you have to understand where they're coming from. It isn't unheard of for labels to drop bands for not making sales, no matter how great the music is or how talented the band is. 

 

I'm also stunned by the sheer amount of self-righteousness and entitlement going on in this thread. No one is entitled to free music.

 

There are 'needs' and 'wants'. Needs are things like water, food, shelter. Wants are internet, computers, music made by men who are wearing ten pounds of makeup and are waving around guitars. 

 

You want the music. You will survive without it. I'm not sure of the ages of anyone on this board, but I will say this: I had that same opinion until I actually had to pay for my own bills.

 

Before I became an adult. 

 

Now, let's talk about Nocturnal Bloodlust themselves for a second. 

 

This is the closest thing foreign fans have gotten to an internationally-minded band in a very long time. They make sure their music is available for fans abroad, two of the members are fluent in English and regularly converse with fans, and they have been going out of their way to bring foreign fans into the fold. They even made it so foreign fans could become members of their fanclub. They want to go abroad. And let's remember how a band can find it viable to go abro--oh. Right CD sales in foreign countries, not the number of requests a band receives.

 

In addition... they run their label pretty much on their own. All of the costs? They pay for them. Iris and Crisis is Nocturnal Bloodlust's label. They have connections to Raiz Entertainment (their old label) which has connections through the industry... but for the most part, they're the people who have to pay for everything. We can debate on if they should have gotten into visual kei until the cows come home, but the fact of the matter is: Shit is expensive. 

 

'Fans' are also pissed off because they got called out on it. The band knows people are illegally downloading, and brought it up. They want to talk about the problem. It isn't even the first time the band's done this--they did it last year, and the year before that when they released Ivy. Now, rather than having a discussion about illegal downloading and what the foreign fans want... people railed against him. They said he was overbearing and an asshole, and that he didn't have a right to speak out about illegal downloading. That's not the conversation they need.

 

If you want to have a conversation with the band about how to better market themselves to foreign fans, do it! I think it would be a good idea if they opened an international webstore where fans could buy goods and CDs. A way of buying songs off their website that are bundled with lossless versions and photos. Add special goodies for people who buy mp3 versions. It's cheaper to buy the versions of all their releases off itunes in USD than it is for Japan (example, their newest single costs ¥250 a song but in USD is only $1.29.) This is also a band that makes sure the cds are available within a week of their release in Japan, because they understand that once the cd is out there... they're not going to sell as many copies. But even a few matter. 

 

 I think it would be great if they tried to use more English and worked to try and make themselves more internationally minded. Rather than getting angry that the band is mad at foreign fans for illegally downloading, make it so the band knows what you want. And you'll buy.

 

There will be people who continue to illegally download. That won't change. People who think they somehow deserve music and the work of other people. People who think they're entitled to music (the reason I can't even begin to imagine.) And there's nothing any of us can do about that. But buying a cd or MP3 will at least show the band where fans are, and will make your voice heard.

 

And this isn't just for this one band. This is for any band with a huge foreign following. Most bands are ignorant of how popular they are in foreign countries, because they just don't sell many cds in those areas, so they don't know. What you have to do, as fans of a band, is be loud about your love for a band. Otherwise... this will just happen time and time again.

[nekkichi 6043]

@ rasai

 

you're doing a good job assuming everything about lack of sales/having to work multiple jobs is unique for bijuaru kei

CD sales account for a very small number of overall monetary income in music ( http://www.bearshare.com/economic-of-music.html - good info on itunes sales value, btw)

if a VK musician has to work for 7-11, instead of composing music/doing sound work for TV/radio/advertising - so be it.

also, western musicians do not have the luxury of being employed at a host-clubs bc they r not kawai enough ^.^

 

I am not saying that surviving in vk is cheap and easy and there's no reason to be concerned with music piracy, but nokubura doesn't have enough merit to call people out, their music is below average even on the very small vk scene scale.

 

> However, it isn't unheard of for bands to play on the promise of being paid when they arrive..

 

try getting paid gigs/having a sustainable career in performance art. this is not unique for music, and the only reason this happens is because bands allow being exploited.

 

ps: please work on concision and overall delivery of your points, ty.

[PumpkinPatches 48]

I'm sorry you don't like the way I presented my points. 

 

Let me be more concise.

1. Illegal downloading is still illegal.

2. Making music, playing concerts, and promotion cost money that the band and their management pays.

3. This money and promotion comes from cds.

4. Bands won't go to the US/EU/South America if they can't see sales.

???
 Result: No sales? No band for you.

 

 

You don't have to like the bands, but this goes for any visual kei band. And we're talking about visual kei bands right now, which is why I didn't bring up other musical genres. So, you're not really making any valid points.

[Tetora 625]

Very, very good post Rsasai.

 

You made many points in a well composed way, and provided a wealth of information.

 

I truly appreciate you taking the time to write that out, and look forward to seeing more of your posts in the future.

 

I have made my stance on the issue somewhat clear ( I write in stream-of-thought most of the time, but I hope everyone can bear that). But I think people keep undermining the value of actual cd sales, which I believe to be the actual measure of `stock` in a band. Even if all funds dont go to the artist, they go to the production of the works, the advertisement, the printing of the cd`s, and the future budget of the bands endeavours.

 

I am still personally thinking over the best way for bands to distribute. I like your idea of an online shop with lossless, and it would be amazing if labels banded together to get a service such as this, or even a streaming service or subscription service where you pay a monthly fee, and additional revenue is generated by ads, etc... Though I am still unsure of how much money could be made by the subscriptions and ads, and if it can equal or exceed what cd sales would generate. This is just some dreaming that I like to do.

 

As for iTunes, it is better than nothing, always, but I still dislike the quality, and I know the prices they charge do not equal cd sale revenue, or support the current system VK and other areas survive off of.

 

But at the same time, I wonder if there really is a solution, or if we will always have to deal with their being the have`s and have-not`s of society that either can buy, and enjoy, or can`t.

 

Also, I sometimes feel lonely in my stance of truly loving and being on the sides of the artists, as cynical thoughts, disrespect, and nit-picking towards the art and artists seems to permeate the structure of our modern societies.I go to various places for talking about my love of things such as music, wrestling, movies, etc... And it seems like everything is overwhelming negative, and I cant help but understand why the whole system is built around pleasing fan-girls, as well as all other obsessive fan-types, and marks.

 

However, please understand that I value everyones opinions and take note of all of them, and take all serious replies for the same worth, good or bad.

[JukaForever 758]

I'm sorry you don't like the way I presented my points. 

 

Let me be more concise.

1. Illegal downloading is still illegal.

2. Making music, playing concerts, and promotion cost money that the band and their management pays.

3. This money and promotion comes from cds.

4. Bands won't go to the US/EU/South America if they can't see sales.

???

 Result: No sales? No band for you.

 

 

You don't have to like the bands, but this goes for any visual kei band. And we're talking about visual kei bands right now, which is why I didn't bring up other musical genres. So, you're not really making any valid points.

 

Your original post flowed smoothly for the most part IMO.

 

I always had a hunch #4 was true. From a business standpoint, if there isn't any proof that there are fans elsewhere (or potential to grow more fans) then there isn't a point in touring/promoting elsewhere. CD sales, legal music downloads or even pre-ordered tickets in venues should be a good indication of demand.

[nekkichi 6043]

I'm sorry you don't like the way I presented my points. 

 

 Result: No sales? No band for you.

how many European or American bands of similar scale (compared to nokubura/D.I.D./12012) do you see touring Japan, or even Asia in general?

 

and, by the way, my home country is getting about enough VK performers, despite complete lack of online sharing regulation, and high speed internet being more available than steady postal delivery.

 

 

 

You don't have to like the bands, but this goes for any visual kei band. And we're talking about visual kei bands right now, which is why I didn't bring up other musical genres. So, you're not really making any valid points.

 

you don't have to like non-visual bands, but don't need to dive completely into an autistic/utopic mindset, which assumes a band can be successful and profitable due to CD sales alone (which has never been the case, more than that, actual bands are almost always in debt to the label due to ways in which contracts are written (good example here);

in a sense, bands not being paid for the gigs, for example, fits your picture as "wrong" or "unjust", but exactly same thing happens with related creative industries, where people are disputing over royalties, hire professional lawyers to back them up and provide expertise on how not to get screwed.

it is completely realistic to expect to work in music business and get paid and make living off it, it is even reasonable to do it as a performing/composing musician, but it is not reasonable to expect that within a single band's life span, especially when that band largely caters to teenagers (which is a highly volatile audience to start with).

[PumpkinPatches 48]

you don't have to like non-visual bands, but don't need to dive completely into an autistid/utopic mindset, which assumes a band can be successful and profitable due to CD sales alone (which has never been the case, more than that, actual bands are almost always in debt to the label due to ways in which contracts are written (good example here);

 

 

 

Just to clear things up, I never once said that cd sales is where a band gets their money in my main arguement. In fact, I very clearly stated that it's only a part of the moeny, particularly for the musicians themselves. However, it is important for a band to sell music to succeed in the Japanese market, particularly the way that promotion plays into how likely a band is to succeed. This has nothing to do with money for the members.

 

I dumbed down my comment, but you would be aware if you read the original comment.

 

Now, on musicians and labels, I'm actually pretty well-versed in labels and music ownership rights. I grew up with a musician for a father (metal), a brother (metal), and a sister (opera). However, again, we're not talking about western bands and the way they form their labels and contracts. We're talking about a band that owns their own label, first and foremost. 

 

in a sense, bands not being paid for the gigs, for example, fits your picture as "wrong" or "unjust", but exactly same thing happens with related creative industries, where people are disputing over royalties, hire professional lawyers to back them up and provide expertise on how not to get screwed.

 

 

 

Again, we're talking of an entire different can of worms. We're not talking about western bands. Had you read my actual writings, I never said it was wrong or unjust that members aren't paid for their lives. I am stating facts. I felt bad for them, yeah. But I'm not saying it's wrong or unjust. I'm just stating that it happens. Bands pay per live, and are paid per head. It's extremely competitive, and expensive. So, bands disband all the time about money and sales. 

 

it is completely realistic to expect to work in music business and get paid and make living off it, it is even reasonable to do it as a performing/composing musician, but it is not reasonable to expect that within a single band's life span, especially when that band largely caters to teenagers.

 

 

 

To be honest, I'm... disappointed that this is the route you were going down. I was hoping for something a little more impressive.

 

I'm not sure you're aware, but a generous portion on the 2000s bands (fall out boy, panic!at the disco, all the other screamo-emo-hardcore-whatever) bands catered largely to teenagers. They made buckets of money. You know, because you're so adamant on bringing up western music.

 

As for someone who has seen Nocturnal Bloodlust live and been a part of their particular corner of the scene... almost all of their Japanese fans are over the age 20. Now, you're right that a lot of visual kei fans abroad are younger, but that still doesn't change the argument in the slightest, because I never said "They should be able to make buckets of money and never work again." I said, "Illegal downloading is a problem that the industry needs to be involved in, and fans need to be willing to work with the industry and purchase some music, so that bands they enjoy are able to thrive."

 

tl;dr: Actually read posts and don't just skim them over for sentences that look debatable.

[nekkichi 6043]

Just to clear things up, I never once said that cd sales is where a band gets their money in my main arguement. In fact, I very clearly stated that it's only a part of the moeny, particularly for the musicians themselves. However, it is important for a band to sell music to succeed in the Japanese market, particularly the way that promotion plays into how likely a band is to succeed. This has nothing to do with money for the members.

 

I’ll clear things up as well, and reiterate my point: domestic sales are important, but the existence of paying foreign fans should come as an unexpected ( ✔︎ ) unplanned ( ✔︎ ) unpredictable ( ✔︎ ) addition to the revenue, given the such and suchs of isolated Japanese retail and distribution. A band that is a certified flop by local measure has really no right to ask their foreign casual listeners to pay, while they failed to attract dedicated audiences in their home market.

 

Now, on musicians and labels, I'm actually pretty well-versed in labels and music ownership rights. I grew up with a musician for a father (metal), a brother (metal), and a sister (opera).

 

yet your part of debate dives as low as “have you seen the struggle of that 7-11 onigiri wrapper who does this to support his ART?”.

 

 

Had you read my actual writings, I never said it was wrong or unjust that members aren't paid for their lives. I am stating facts.

my bad, I can’t exactly see when you’re being more or less objective and when you trying to appeal by adding sentimental quality to your wall of text.

 

 

So, bands disband all the time about money and sales.

and this has happened since ever, and is a normal part of the music business. artists are not entitled to being successful by definition, it's a combination of talent, hard work, luck and chance. chilean downloads have really killed no one aside from chilean bijuaru kei impersonators maybe. 

 

I'm not sure you're aware, but a generous portion on the 2000s bands (fall out boy, panic!at the disco, all the other screamo-emo-hardcore-whatever) bands catered largely to teenagers. They made buckets of money.

and they came out of local scenes, that for the most part are completely unknown outside, and those buckets of money came due to major labels seeing potential in one band out of dozen and investing into its marketing and promotion.

this is the part that nokubura is supposedly missing at this point, assuming their talent is guaranteeing those sales expectations. and this is where

We're talking about a band that owns their own label, first and foremost.

really says nothing to me. if they are inefficient at promoting their music, coming up with a declaration for foreign fans (which started this topic) is not going to change anything, because, see how much they are going to profit from itunes.

 

coming up with a paypal donation account and a polite explanation (“we struggle & please support us as a band directly if you can not buy our music by some reason”) would have done them more good than sending out desperate tweets

 

As for someone who has seen Nocturnal Bloodlust live and been a part of their particular corner of the scene... almost all of their Japanese fans are over the age 20.

 

In this case, I truly hope they will get even more fans in the same age group and stfu for good & become rich and famous.

 

Now, you're right that a lot of visual kei fans abroad are younger, but that still doesn't change the argument in the slightest, because I never said "They should be able to make buckets of money and never work again." I said, "Illegal downloading is a problem that the industry needs to be involved in, and fans need to be willing to work with the industry and purchase some music, so that bands they enjoy are able to thrive.”

 

it’s not “fans need (sumthin-sumthin)”, it’s “bands need” to attract fans who will willingly go out of their way for them. we’re clearly on polar stances when it comes to expectations and responsibilities. you completely miss that N.B. in particular is incredibly disposable - we all mourned when Rentrer en soi disbanded, after its FWD management basically alienated their former fans and failed to attract new ones, but no one will miss this thing at all. there will be bands who will get recognition and sales, and there will be hordes of never-was tier bands. 

 

 

tl;dr: Actually read posts and don't just skim them over for sentences that look debatable.

 

consider putting effort into sending your message in a digestible way, and resist that temptation of falling into personal nitpicks when your epic tirades r getting misunderstood, ty.

 

 

I'm sure I'm going to get shit for this.

Looking back, I'm like 200 percent sure you were basically contemplating a storm coming over your half-developed questionable chunks of opinion, so enjoy the tea while my sencha's still steaming I suppose?

[PumpkinPatches 48]

It seems everyone else who has read and commented had an okay time understanding my response. You didn't, so I'm sorry I wasn't completely clarifying.

 

This topic is about fans and their purchasing habits, and the fact that a band has a right to state their opinions on illegal downloading. 

To begin:

 

I’ll clear things up as well, and reiterate my point: domestic sales are important, but the existence of paying foreign fans should come as an unexpected ( ✔︎ ) unplanned ( ✔︎ ) unpredictable ( ✔︎ ) addition to the revenue, given the such and suchs of isolated Japanese retail and distribution. A band that is a certified flop by local measure has really no right to ask their foreign casual listeners to pay, while they failed to attract dedicated audiences in their home market.

 

As stated, the international market does directly influence the band's sales, particularly when many of these fans consider the music and band important enough to follow and request that the band visits their countries. International sales are vital if you want the band in question to take part in an expensive expedition abroad.  In addition, fans complain when bands they enjoy disband, even when it is in regards to funds, yet do not purchase music. 

The sales of even 10% of people who illegally download would have a massive affect upon the visual kei industry, which is already considered small and niche.

 

yet your part of debate dives as low as “have you seen the struggle of that 7-11 onigiri wrapper who does this to support his ART?”.

 

 
Because we're talking about visual kei, not western music. If anyone wants to know how much it sucks being the child of a starving artist, go ahead and send me a pm. 

The point of the matter is this: Visual kei is an expensive industry to be a musician. Sales are important to a band, because it directly influences the amount of industry attention they receive, as well as sponsorships, promotions, and in the end, money. The purchase of music is vital to keeping the industry alive. And yes, foreign fans are important to that, considering how numerous they are, and how very little they spend.

 

 

 

and this has happened since ever, and is a normal part of the music business. artists are not entitled to being successful by definition, it's a combination of talent, hard work, luck and chance. chilean downloads have really killed no one aside from chilean bijuaru kei impersonators maybe. 

 

 

 

 

You're correct in one way, but I overall disagree with this sentiment because we live in an international economy. The act of 1000 fans illegally downloading a cd in Chile can hurt a band, by taking away that 10% of fans who would have purchased the cd otherwise. If international fans want to be considered a part of this industry (and considering how often people tweet, tumbl, write on facebook walls or write on boards like this) they need to become part of the financial aspects of the industry. That is how entertainment works. The Japanese domestic market listens to the Japanese people. The international fans want to be listened to--how do you get the domestic market to pay attention other than money?

 

it’s not “fans need (sumthin-sumthin)”, it’s “bands need” to attract fans who will willingly go out of their way for them. we’re clearly on polar stances when it comes to expectations and responsibilities. you completely miss that N.B. in particular is incredibly disposable - we all mourned when Rentrer en soi disbanded, after its FWD management basically alienated their former fans and failed to attract new ones, but no one will miss this thing at all. there will be bands who will get recognition and sales, and there will be hordes of never-was tier bands. 

 

 

I disagree with this completely. 

 

The band is very obviously attracting fans, but the fans are the issue. The fans are unwilling to spend money, for a variety of reasons. The issue begins with the fan. The fan (gathered from the variety of posts on this thread) don't believe they are responsible for purchasing music. They believe that because they do not have the money, they are still deserving of music, as if it were water. Music is not a right. It is not a 'need'. It is a want. And, if a fan is willing to illegally download music, then they are the problem. Their way of thinking is the problem.

 

Everyone is enjoying making excuses: "It's too expensive." "The quality isn't good enough!" "I don't have the money." "I deserve music." This is the problem. No band owes their fans free music.  

The solution is that the band and industry work with the foreign fanbase to create a method where fans can purchase music and be a part of the industry, rather than a leech sucking potential sales from the industry. Someone on this thread pointed out that a lot of fans purchase singles, but already have them from illegal downloads. The industry needs to make a product that is attractive, but even with the most amazing products.... nothing will matter until the fans change their perception of their influence.

 

And I thought this was going to go bad not because of my response, but because it seems most of you are pro illegal-downloading. That in itself is scary enough.