Tetora

Can't wait, this band is so sick.

Visual Kei and Japanese pop/sub cultures in general seem to have many intense fans or fan communities that live and breath the art-form or artist in question.

I think it would be interesting to discuss just how heavily we follow our favorite bands, and what lengths we go to in our appreciation and / or worship.

As for me, I am a pretty big fan, I like to get all versions of singles / albums, and full discographies of  favorite bands, even Best albums... I follow on Ameblo, browse Twitters when I can`t sleep. Like to know which Kanji all band members use in their names, etc... As for picks (plectrum), Cheki, etc... For my favorite band I love these, but for other bands I couldn`t care less for plectrum, etc... I will just give them to people who seem to want them. Band-shirts I always long for. I guess my own style is influenced by VK too...

Here are some questions to get the ball rolling on the conversation, feel free to answer them and / or type a little about how much you follow VK bands!:

1: Do you buy multiple versions of releases, or buy at all? (Judgement-Free-Zone)

2: Do you collect cheki or other non-music related items from bands?

3: Follow them on Ameblo, Twitter?

4: Would you follow them on the street?

5: Dig through their trash? (Judgment-Free-Zone)

6: Does Visual Kei or other forms of your musical taste influence your style or personal life?

7: Desire to move or visit Japan influenced by music?

8: Do you read dirt-sheets of bands, like rumours, gossip, etc...?

9: Ever fantasize about being friends with band members? (JFZ)

10: Do you want to be in a Visual Kei band (or any other kind of band)?

Feel free to speak of other genres and your fandom as well if you please.

I agree with Mi'ihen about how the Japanese language is more elegant than English. Maybe I'm just a massive weeaboo but idk, Japanese just sounds nicer compared to English, unless the vocalist can somehow bring it in a really beautiful way (I'm taking Florence Welch as an example). I feel the same about the post-rock genre, to be quite honest. I love my post-rock in French, because French is just such an elegant language and it fits the sort of music perfectly, as where English lyrics with this sort of music sort of...puts me off? I don't know, it just doesn't feel right.

What I like about Japanese is that almost everything ends in open vowels, so you can hold any word, any note. Like in english so many words ends in consonants, and it is not the same if you try to the sounds of the words over a duration. Even in Japanese when the word ends in `n`or is shortened to mas or des instead of masu / desu, it still sounds so much better to me when put into vocals than English.

I also like the sentence structure, and the modest thoughtfulness of the Japanese language, and how it is still formal and not invaded with too much slang. Sometimes it is like the English words are the slang though.

Track two on Missing single:

Bump.

Was listening to him today. Wondering when he is going to release more.

Word is that he is trying to stay in Japan for longer than the year now...

I prefer his Japanese singing much more, but overall he is good for a gaijin. I hope he succeeds.

I understand Japanese, but I know many who love Japanese or Korean music etc... without understanding, same as English artists reach Japanese or others who cannot understand.

To me, the music has a value that stands alone without understanding the words. I can still appreciate HK or Chinese music for example.

I find that for me and others, you often get the feeling of the song and kind of the emotion without understanding words. It is already there , but actually understanding lyrics does add the writers perspective and individuality to it more.

I also find translations or subs I run across to be different.

Either the words and meaning are intentionally changed or unintentionally by the translator. The translators interpretation comes into effect no matter what and I find not many do it justice, but that is nature of communication.

Sometimes you even find that you liked your own misinterpretation more. Like even in your own languages you hear a song, and missing a lyric without knowing and you really like that line that you are singing, but then you read the lyric book or listen again and you find out the vocalist actually used a different word or two which resonate with you less.

Can't people just listen to the music and enjoy it and then leave it at that? Who really cares about how we should define visual kei or what it is for that matter? Why do we have to come up with a cause for why vk is what it is? does it matter?

 

These are the question I'm asking myself as i read through this thread... also I see this is gonna go no where just like every single discussion about this topic in the history of this forum has always gone nowhere.

 

Can't we just stop?

The thread isn`t really about what we should define VK as, it`s just everyone`s individual opinions that we can appreciate. I am discussing with Zess because he wrote out a huge piece and I thought it deserved more attention than it originally got. If anyone has any different feelings or ideas, I love to hear them, and unless they want to discuss, I wont disagree with them.

I enjoy your sentiment as well though

Right. That's four bands. The visual kei scene is small, but not that small. The amount of bands that disband due to lack of money also say otherwise.

 

Kind of an insulting response. Obviously I am not going to sit here and list every single person in VK history who had money.

There are a large amount of bands that disband in many, if not almost every genre due to money, it does not tie that genre to that trait. I listed one of the originators and most influential people in VK to show that the genre is not by any means tied to that, and we could look at how many more key VK figures had money before they started. VK is not based around poor or struggling people with so many prominent figures saying otherwise.

No. Japan has one of the most homogenous countries in the world with a complete and total culture of conformity. In fact the Japanese have a saying that reflects it: "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down". I am no expert on Japanese culture, but the writing on the wall is clear.

 

Complete and total culture of conformity is such an absolute term with no absolute substantiation to back it that I have to disagree. The nail that sticks up is a saying that exists in many different many all over the world. I do not see the writing being clear on the wall by any means here.

No, it's a rewording of the conformity paradox. Visual kei in and of itself is very conformist, which is ironic considering it is widely believed to have started as a movement for freedom of expression.

 

You stated that VK bands are based around rebelling against a system, when actually being used by the system, then being assimilated, etc... I see no backing for this, or how VK is really so conformist when the topic at hand is based around how different the bands that fall under VK can be. I do not see SId, Dir En Grey, X Japan, Luna Sea, Ayabie etc as conforming to something here, they all went their own way with different sounds, looks and presentations. Not seeing how the bands expression is subdued in any way either.

I don't think so.

 

First article is peer reviewed by one person in the US and another in HK. The whole article is subjective, but also goes on to list the number of Hikko`s who remove themselves from society.  For a totally conformist country there sure are a lot of people either removed from the culture, or living in subcultures here.

Lost 10/20 Years

 

Kind of insulting how you post this article link in response as if I am supposed to be educating myself on something when you stated that the recession was 30 years long, and I stated it started in the 90`s, which that article, albeit from Wikipedia, confirms, so I am not sure why you are posting it. I am very aware of the socio-economic history of Japan. It was a very different place before the Bubble burst and government maintenance failed later on. The issues you bring up here and with things such as birth rates etc... Do not tie in with many major points in VK history, and some of your linked articles refer to more recent events which I do not feel represent strong influence on why VK is here in the first place when it precedes many of these occurrences.

Actually, I would have expected someone to say that I've said much of nothing by not defining what visual kei is and instead indirectly defining what it is by it's constituents. I haven't pigeonholed visual kei at all because I refuse to define it. 

 

True, I was still desiring your final thoughts on the subject which were kind of lacking from your article.

As for the pigeon-holing, it comes from stating certain causes for VK, motivation of bands, effects of society on VK, or level of wealth in the average band and how that defines VK, etc... as I feel those are incorrect and do not represent VK as a whole by any means.

Overall, I really enjoy reading everyone`s points, and please understand that even if I disagree with you, or the topic goes off track, I am still taking in what you are saying. Thanks for your input.

I'm all about forming individual opinions and stick to them, but later on you substitute my open-ended definition for visual kei with your open-ended definition for visual kei, which leads us back to what I said before: you can't define visual kei.

 

I was not trying to substitute any definition for another. Basically, this thread was not about what Visual Kei is, or is supposed to be, it was to find out individual people`s views. I really don`t have that much interest in other people pinning down what Visual Kei is, etc... They can think what they want, but since you took the time to write out all that originally, and mentioned people not responding in the past I figured I would supply my input, a.k.a. disagreements.

As for one not being able to define Visual Kei, I feel as if it already is silently defined as music that revolves around Rock and a certain lineage of bands, and that the Visual term comes from the emphasis on certain looks that the bands put on themselves. Not all bands have a look or the same sound, but they still revolve around that lineage. As for genre, scene, movement, I am not really interested or see a point in having one nailed down.

and what perpetuates it. 

 

Again, I disagree with the reasons given as to what perpetuates it, but let`s agree to disagree on this since we can go on and on... ( I know agree to disagree is a rage-worthy term sometimes, pardon me.)

Even if genre, movement, scene are too restrictive to describe what visual kei is, we need to relegate it to something. 

 

One of the feelings I had when creating this thread, is that things are fine as they are, Visual Kei is doing well without definitions, etc... as we all basically have very similar views when it is all said and done of what bands are and aren`t VK, besides a few stringers, like Dir En Grey, TMR, etc.... And another thing I wanted to find out and discuss was the use of sub-genres, which I don`t fully `get`still, and feel like they often relegate things to something that wasn`t needed, and wont help you.

The problem with subjectivity is that you can view something from so subjective an angle that it becomes pointless to discuss. If we leave the definition of visual kei up to experience and how people feel it should be, we run (once again) right back into the same problem that I highlighted in my first gargantuan post: we can talk for ten pages about what visual kei is and never get to the root of it. I'm all for letting people think what they want, but there has to be a common point that we all agree on - otherwise we will never get a definition for what visual kei is. From reading this thread, enough of us agree that visual kei is a scene for that to be our "common point". That's enough for me.

 

I don`t feel as if this problem actually exists though. I have not witnessed much of an issue with things being subjective, as no matter what, and no matter how many people vote in one favor, as I gave examples for, genre, sub-genre, etc... is all subjective, and wont change into fact. We could have an anonymous vote on something in VK, but then the band wont even agree, and the Japanese industry wont agree, so that is what I think is pointless.

As for scene, movement, I am not stepping into that actual field, I just have feelings on it being a personal genre.

Quite a few things:

High pressure to conform

Intense pressure to do well

High suicide rate and high clinical depression rate

Declining birth rate since young people stopped having sex because they see no point in it

Lost 10/20 Years

Corruption (most recent good example of this is Fukushima)

 

But none of these things are really solely existent to Japan.

High pressure to conform is found in many countries, Japan is tenth in suicide rates with a number that drops down steeply from the top spots, although Japanese culture has a stronger history of suicide as an act based on things other than depression,  birth rate is actually dropping in many places worldwide, including where I am now, Canada. The difference, as I have studied for years is based on things like immigration. Other countries have declining birth rates, marriage, sex, etc... as well with their natives / established citizens, so they are either bringing in immigrants to even the age gap, or finding that immigrants are mostly the ones having sex and children. Many companies now are already adjusting long-term marketing plans in Canada to encompass the fact that more customers will be seniors... Many new snacks in development have segmentation based on long-term sales to seniors. This is not a Japanese problem solely, from my vantage point.

Corruption, IMO, is not nearly as heavy in Japan as many other countries, even with the Yakuza, which studies have shown are much less malignant to society than Triads, Mafia, etc... Here in my city, the mafia runs many establishments like restaurants, Casino, etc... And our former mayor also had ties to the mob, and was stealing money and materials from the new hospital being built. I know people who know his daughter, she sells cocaine. The mayor of Toronto also supposedly smokes crack.

So IMO I can appreciate how Japan`s unique blend of problems as well as values (values not really touched on sadly) can contribute to the unique VK habitat, but again I have to say it is inconclusive, and even then countries with much different socio-political et ceteras... have bigger VK fandom and scenes than more similar countries (South America).

(Just to point out to anyone reading this and confused, this is a different discussion we are having than the original that got melded together.)

America is one of the most dominant cultural countries of the world. Japan is lower on the totem pole. Rap and visual kei are also not on equal footing. You can take rap music and transform it so that it fits the ideals of the country it's being ported to. You can't take visual kei and transform it, mostly because we still haven't gotten to a working definition of what that is, so how do you know what to take? What to leave? What to change without destroying the core essence of visual kei? And on top of all of that, there are plenty of places in the world that are not receptive to things such as effeminate men, who would resist visual kei because it's outside of their comfort zones. Two way different things that have different obstacles to overcome.

 

Good points, but what I would like to touch on, is if Japan is so much more conformist, how can people get away with VK et cetera there, and be ostracized in other places for it? Despite what some people would like to claim, Japan does not have a history of effeminate men, and herbivore men are still not in the same topic, or in a great enough number despite media claim to get viewers. (As stated other countries without herbivore outbreaks have dropping sex and birth rates, any suggestion that herbs are the cause is inconclusive.) 

It doesn't get any more important than a Yoshiki announcement folks.

The difference between newbies and veterans in the scene mostly comes down to context sensitivity determining band classification. 

 

What is the context here? Also, I would like to note that people inside of the industry and Japan seem to actually use less of these contexts and classifications than the fans and critics.

There are many bands in Japan, and in the past, such as easy examples I will use including AC/DC, who didn`t want to be called Metal, or Hard Rock, they just said they were a Rock band. Def Leppard also called a Metal, and Hair Metal band, they said they were just a Rock band. Writers and fans put labels such as Prog Rock, and Southern Rock on things... Etc...

To the bands it is all Rock, same as to me, it`s all Visual Kei. Maybe even the terms Genre and Movement or Scene are too restrictive as you say.

Really, I see sub-genres as useful for the people that live by them, but useless for those that don`t. 

I don`t mind what other people call it, since they are describing their experience. As it is their experience, they use their own terms... But does something have to be seen as this kind of rock? And does Visual Kei have to be acknowledged this way as well? 

For example, if a new band comes out and describes itself as Visual Kei... What are they saying? If a friend not familiar of Visual Kei or Japanese things at all asks you what they mean... What would all you guys say? If someone asked you what is Visual Kei?

I`d say a form of Japanese Rock music based that came from the band having their own look. It`s a pretty open-ended description, but to me, Visual Kei can`t be described as much as it just has to be witnessed. Then everyone comes up with their own idea of what Visual Kei is, which is nice...

As a Japanese thing, it also shares some, but not all similarities to the classification systems used with Manga, Anime, etc... These things are seen as a distinctly Japanese thing, and have not really been duplicated by any other area of the world to any discernible level even close to Japan`s prowess in these things...

In Zess`s opinion it is a strictly Japanese problem (ad-libbing here so pardon if I slightly twist the intent of that sentence) but I`d like to ask you guys... Really why?

IMO people all over the world find Visual Kei, etc... And love it, relate to it, etc... But for all the Japanese things out there, we really never get to their level at their own game while Rap was seen as becoming of a particular people, culture, etc... Yet it has sprung up everywhere, and some argue the best rapper is white...

So what`s everyone`s opinion on that?

IMO, much as more experienced fans gain traction discerning the popular opinion of what is VK, you also either gain, or always have the ability to distinguish between a knock-off from another country...

Do other cultures ostracize such things and prevent them from occurring? Are you not raised the same way? The environment? 

Moving on...

Going off of sound alone, all bands that were ever considered visual kei can't be connected short of a definition so vague it's useless.

 

Going off the sound I would say they are all Rock, and even stuff from LM.C and Uwakimono is visual kei sounding to me. That`s just my view though... Luna Sea is the predecessor of Alice Nine, and so forth... Kuroyume goes to Dir En Grey.... Which goes to Gazette... then begets Mejibray. Not so simple, but it fits...

So then we turn to the costumes and theatrics and claim that as a large component of what makes a band visual. 

 

 

This has never been VK to me, just what some bands do... SID is VK with whatever they wear. Luna Sea can wear Suits... Etc... Even if you wear the infamous jean and t-shirt, it can still be Visual.

 

As a fan, you get to a point where you realize that the term can't be defined and thus you stop. The working definition is "If a band wants to be visual kei, they'll be visual kei. When they don't, they're no longer visual kei". 

 

True. When you define it, the definition is open ended. But it`s the same way when MuCC plays a reggae song, or jazz, etc... It`s still seen as Rock with these elements, etc... Same as Eagles play any kind of song, and it`s Rock with these elements... Is an open-ended definition not valid? IMO Rock, VK, etc... Are open-ended by nature.

We also can surmise that a lot of these musicians are poor or struggling.

 

Not necessarily, many famous VK bands, including some of the originators had enough, or more than enough money. Yoshiki started his own label, recruited Luna Sea and Glay, then helped Dir En Grey get started. 

Hey guys,

Quick Questionnaire to provoke some discussion and see everyone`s opinion / way of looking at Visual Kei.

As a quick preface:

I simply view Visual Kei as a genre, and terms such as Rock, Metal, Nu-Metal, Goth, etc... All simply as descriptors when inside of this genre. To be honest, I never use these descriptors much myself. When I am looking for new bands or sounds, I usually start with the image of the band. I can tell what kind of music they will have, for the most part, and also, get a rough idea of their quality. In my listening history this may seem like a simple, biased way to view things, but it has worked very well, although there area  few bands which slip under the radar, or I end up being putting aside and then realizing I like very much (Alice Nine Alpha album, DOG in the PWO, etc...)

I don`t really even know, or have much care for what terms like Nu-Metal and so forth really entail, and don`t think I will ever need the terms. I know this may seem silly to some, but my methods work for me. If I want a certain sound, I search for a certain band look. If a band changes styles, I can describe how they changed and from what-to-what the change was, but to be honest, putting genre tags or labels on to bands, songs, albums etc... Feels too judgmental to me, and like I am trying to brand things, which I am not interested in, in music. I also regard all Classic Rock, as just Classic Rock, I don`t worry about putting Rush into Prog.Rock, Lynyrd into Southern Rock, etc...
 

I feel like Visual Kei is free, or at least it should be, in terms of being anything the band wants, and genres don`t interest me, besides calling it all Visual Kei. Maybe I am just too romantic about it, but alas...

Just to clarify, I am not getting into what I think is proverbially, or objectively correct, etc... I am speaking on a personal level.

Questions:

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

3: Do the looks matter to you? If the same band dressed in Jeans and T-shirts with short hair, would you be as interested?

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

Thank you for reading, please feel free to discuss any of my opinions, and express your own within and outside of my questionnaire.

Sometimes gay guys can be good to talk to in terms of fun conversations.

Yeah, nothing against gay brahs but when a girl brings someone on a date to a restaurant etc.... It is horrid and awkward regardless.

Also nice story about the Mormons, lol, wonder if they bought it.

Lol at last story.

On the topic of games...

I have actually dated a lot of girls that like Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy, even girls you would never expect it from...

What is the worst date you guys have ever been on?

Seems like Peace has been on some doozies.

For me, it was when the girl I met at a wedding brought her gay best friend along on our first date... Besides that we had thrilling conversation over her favorite hobbies.... facebook and sleeping. Needless to say there was no second date.

Also guys let's not fight or make assumptions, let's just discuss as friends.

It's easy to talk about "dignity" from the position of a person who sits in front of the computer and most of their music is downloaded. Sorry, but money rules this world. You either eat or get eaten. I don't think any way to achieve success is wrong, as long as you get what you wanted. When you're full of morals, you won't achieve anything, because other people will use unfair methods to succeed and you'll be left behind. These bands just try to succeed and you don't know Japanese girls. They often prostitute themselves to support their favorite band or do mitsu for their beloved band member, so stop with these morals.

I disagree.

I am a business man, and you do what it takes to win, but this is not how you win.

As for morals, everyone has their own, what matters is standing by them no matter what, which is what seperates the men from the b*tches of this world.

I have seen many different businesses from the inside, and the ones without morals are the ones without balls, and they almost always have more debt than profit in their ventures, though they wont tell you that.

The,fact that these bands are announcing a conditional disbandment shows me they actually dont have what it takes.

I can give examples of real bands that did what it took, like Buck-Tick or Dog in the PWO... Haru put his whole life into being in a band, he used to sleep in lobbies, look all day for band members, give up oppurtunities elsewhere to continue music, etc... These other bands come out with unrefined looks and sounds, then disband after not becoming SID or Alice Nine in six months.

Just my two cents.

Zoro: Vocalist and Bass wanted more electronic style. Guitarist and Drummer want to be more rock. Guitarist and drummer leave. Guitarist went to band Kra who needed a new member due to.the previous guitarist being seriously ill.

Malice Mizer: Vocalist said the band was blinded by money and wanted to be maknstream for the sake of being mainstream.

LC5, YFC, Karasu, THB: Temporary projects never intended to be long term.

X Japan: Disagreements between the band, and the bassist not being satisfied with the life of a star. They all already had side projects.

Luna Sea: Disagreement between members and supposed egos.

SuG: Temporary hiatus due to supposed discontent with their management.

La:Sadie's: Leader thought they were not ready to debut, band disagreed, they split.

Versailles: Vocalist did not believe the band had a meaningful direction, and followed in the footsteps of his mentor and idol by going solo. The rest of the band continues under a new name with new vocalist.

Ayabie: Band members did not follow the direction of vocalist once going major, so they split into a new band with a capitalized name.

Those are some of the top of my head. Check out the News section and search for.disband etc... Many stories by Trombe, esp. of bands splitting due to lack of attendance at concerts.

Gackt - Mars

April 26, 2000

The first album by Gackt, which featured his second best selling single Vanilla and a myriad of other more experimental tracks featuring a wide range of sounds and instruments, as well as tempos and structures.

This was during a period where Visual Kei, and others forms of `different` rock music started losing its footing in any mainstream context within Japan. Yet this album was regarded as the first of many `monster` albums by Gackt, which enjoyed huge popularity and coverage, despite not being easily definable as mainstream in any sense.

This album really blew open the formula and idea for what a modern, successful Rock album could sound like, and really endorsed freedom to both Gackt`s peers, and listening fans.

Without an album, or artist like this, I feel that what could be mainstream in Japan would have narrowed even further, and we would not have as much freedom in major bands, or even Indie bands in terms of what we could hear.

Although some say Gackt starting straying away from the Visual Kei influence at this time, this is up for debate, as Visual Kei is not clearly defined look or sound-wise, and one could still easily attach Gackt`s look and sound in Mizerable (pre-Mars) Vanilla (Mars), or Redemption / YFC (very post Mars) as Visual Kei.

The album was written, composed and produced by Gackt. He also did the vocals (for those somehow totally unaware of Gackt) and played piano. As composer his influence also runs to the other instruments, though there is input from long-time friends and contributors to Gackt such as You (Violin, Guitar), Chachamaru (Guitar, Associate Producing), and Masa (Guitar).

Although this is a major album, it should be noted that the experimental sound of this album did take a while for the public to warm up to, and in fact following Gackt works which kept with the experimentation were increasingly more accepted by the public.

For those new to Gackt or this album, instead of listening to a Youtube video for this, I recommend you listen to the album in its entirety a couple of times to get a feel for it.

Thanks for the info.

It is a shame more people did not attend.

I either dont sleep and just go on until the next day, or if I have free time I get naked in bed and go to sleep with a good album and wake up 11-13 hours later. That is rare though, so 4 hrs a night avg?

Are you afraid of the dark?

I'm definitely not interested in the Olympics XD

 

Have you ever been hospitalized?

Fractured wrist.

Fractured knee.

Stitches on face.

Stitches on scalp.

Once very ill and in a wheelchair.

Full recovery from all.

What is you favorite place?

I fixed using all of the advice you guys gave me.

For some I removed the ID3v1 info, re-filled out the ID3v2 all with Japanese keyboard setting.

1 I re-ripped.

The last one which was bonus tracks from another CD I couldn`t fix, so I used mp3-to-mp3 forbidden art from Ishiki and made them all uniform. I guess the problem with this one was that the two different CD ID`s somehow interfered? I dunno, I`m not good with this.

Thanks a lot for the help everyone. Now, I put album covers on all my files and my DataBase is pristine!

I should have linked mine instead of just leaving my name:

http://www.last.fm/user/TetoraBMX

Yeah.

I have Jap Pride undies with Geisha, Kabuki, Oni, Shenbu on them etc...

Peacewalker undies with peace signs etc on them.

New Lucky Undies.

Old Lucky See Through Undies.

Army undies.

Tora undies.

Speed Racer Undies.

Armanis.

Kingdom Hearts.

And more.

Is your life chasing a dream? If so what is it?