Separating art from artist

[Seelentau 884]

I mean, unlike those "x band/genre isn't even real music blabla" idiots, not wanting to listen to a convicted pedophile/child rapist is definitely a valid decision.

I actually know two people who stopped listening to Lostprophets because of it. I never listened to them and I certainly have no interest to start doing so now.

I guess in the end, it depends on each individual's moral compass.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Seelentau

[YuyoDrift 1540]

5 minutes ago, Seelentau said:

I guess in the end, it depends on each individual's moral compass.

You might be right. Some people understand the risks of trying to seek knowledge, and as severe as it could be, they still go through with their quest.

I guess you could say I'm one of those people.

 

I also feel that as a society we need to be able to look past the mistakes of days from the dark pages of history, and learn from them, which I feel we have poorly done since it keeps happening.

[YuyoDrift 1540]

Curve-ball scenario for you like-minded people here on MH: (Sorry I highjacked the thread @psychonnect_rozen)

 

What if you found out that a piece of art was created using things that were from victims, like blood or ground up bones mixed into the paint?

What if before recording an album, the fucked-up member goes and abuses/rapes/kills someone to warm up?

 

I think that realization might make me change my view  completely since it's happening at the same moment of creation of the artwork/music.

First I'd actually be like "WHAAAAT!?!??!?, holy shit that's fucked up!", then I'd feel sick to my stomach.

[Triangle 345]

I mean I don't think I'm gonna touch that piece of art because...I guess sanitary reasons? XD

I don't think I would stop admiring the art piece or not listening to the song if I liked it. Sure, first reactions would not be good but, as cruel and as weird as it sounds, I like that song. I can't help that. It's not the song's or the piece of art's fault they were made in weird circumstances. 

Then again, there's a double standard to it. Because let's say one of the victims might be someone that you know. Then it would probably affect you more on a personal level because I guess that's how human brain works. 

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by Triangle

[Gesu 1537]

What really pisses me off is when people drop someone for something that hasn't even been proven. "So-and-so might have committed this crime". Might. You are not a detective investigator; shut up and carry on with your life as normal until you know something or can at least piece something together with evidence. Similarly, it bugs me when someone doing something maybe a bit unusual/embarrassing is seen as bad because people want the "tea" that can unjustly defame someone. "So-and-so had sex with x amount of people". It's their business, not yours, so stay out of it and - you guessed it - carry on with your life as normal. I can understand why people might have a hard time separating the art from the artist if they've done something genuinely bad because it can make you feel guilty for supporting them, but if it's for some stupid shite like that, I just can't stand it and I don't really get why everyone cares so much.

[psychonnect_rozen 585]

58 minutes ago, suji said:

I've listened to plenty of black metal/dungeon synth artists who are self-proclaimed murderers and Neo-Nazis

I’m a fan of The Smashing Pumpkins and Billy Corgan has said some...interesting opinions over the years. While some of them are...stupid, I’ve never really cared. He’s mellowed out his political opinions since then.

 

I think it’s when artists become too right leaning is where I’m like “Really?”. Im fine with artists being moderate or centrist or whatever, but I still would feel guilty for supporting people with such behaviour.

 

Like people love H.P Lovecraft even though that guy is racist.

 

NOTE: I’m only saying this to people who are ACTUALLY saying these kinds of things out loud and proud of being those kinds of people. 

Edited July 12, 2019 by psychonnect_rozen

[suji 8317]

7 minutes ago, psychonnect_rozen said:

I’m a fan of The Smashing Pumpkins and Billy Corgan has said some...interesting opinions over the years. While some of them are...stupid, I’ve never really cared. He’s mellowed out his political opinions since then.

 

I think it’s when artists become too right leaning is where I’m like “Really?”. Im fine with artists being moderate or centrist or whatever, but I still would feel guilty for supporting people with such behaviour.

 

Like people love H.P Lovecraft even though that guy is racist

I personally don't give a fuck about anyone's politics anymore, especially when most people I follow are probably leftist libtards, but as I said before, I want to keep enjoying the thing they're doing rather than focus on them as a person.

[YuyoDrift 1540]

15 minutes ago, psychonnect_rozen said:

Like people love H.P Lovecraft even though that guy is racist

Really? Hahaha I bet that fucks some people up for sure. But hey, its your own mind you're drowning in, at least I hope.

 

15 minutes ago, psychonnect_rozen said:

NOTE: I’m only saying this to people who are ACTUALLY saying these kinds of things out loud and proud of being those kinds of people. 

You make this statement out of fear of the repercussions of not being clear, and I'll tell you right now (and for those who don't want to hear it but need to) that in a perfect world, these types of people need to exist. Part of having people with their own identity is being proud of it, even if it is the worst thing in the world like murdering or racism. It's what keeps the balance/order in society, and always has been since the dawn of time.

 

Now, if their actions are something we can't stop/prevent, then that's where the imbalance begins. I think we are heading in that direction already.

Soon no one will want to be their own person, or worse, hide their agendas/motives under the public eye because it will soon be so easy to do so.

I think that is a scarier picture that few people seem to understand can happen.

I wish I knew examples in history for reference, but I don't . I guess murderers/rapists who have been able to hide under normal society can be the closest related thing to what I'm trying to say, and if right now we can't even tell what they look like under the types of people we have in the world now, what's gonna happen when everyone "looks" and "acts" the same?

[psychonnect_rozen 585]

10 minutes ago, YuyoDrift said:

You make this statement out of fear of the repercussions of not being clear, and I'll tell you right now (and for those who don't want to hear it but need to) that in a perfect world, these types of people need to exist. Part of having people with their own identity is being proud of it, even if it is the worst thing in the world like murdering or racism. It's what keeps the balance/order in society, and always has been since the dawn of time.

I agree. As much as I don’t like these people, I definitely agree that to an extent, they sort of HAVE to be around. I’m not defending them, but injustice and bigotry has been around for a while and we can’t end it no matter how hard we tried.

[psychonnect_rozen 585]

18 minutes ago, suji said:

I personally don't give a fuck about anyone's politics anymore, especially when most people I follow are probably leftist libtards, but as I said before, I want to keep enjoying the thing they're doing rather than focus on them as a person.

I think most people in the entertainment industry are pretty left leaning. Regardless, I couldn’t care if someone had some interesting opinions. 

[GreatNorthernVK 183]

For Japanese artists, it’s difficult to determine what the “right” answer is. For one, many of us don’t read Japanese. Relying on translations for gossip boards can’t always guarantee reliability of either the translation, nor the validity of the rumour itself.

 

Things of this nature are also kept more “hush hush” in Japan, especially if the artist in question is popular and well liked. Things are slowly changing, as they are over here.

 

As for separating the art from the artist, sometimes that is possible, other times it bleeds through. Some are what I like to call “hiding in plain sight”, and see no problem with making their intentions known in their art. Mamo from R-shitei with his edgy lyrics, and talking about his attraction to teen girls. For an American example, Dahvie Vanity advertising what he likes to do to teen girls/young women in Blood on the Dance Floor’s lyrics. Oh sure, we all thought they were joking at one point. Until we realized, no, they really are serious.

 

As for whether or not to continue financial support...honestly, there are several free ways to enjoy art nowadays. If someone doesn’t feel right supporting an artist for personal reasons, it’s probably for the best. Especially if you look at how they are using that money.

[suji 8317]

7 minutes ago, psychonnect_rozen said:

I think most people in the entertainment industry are pretty left leaning. Regardless, I couldn’t care if someone had some interesting opinions. 

Which is why I don't trust the entertainment industry

[Lestat 2167]

1 hour ago, psychonnect_rozen said:

I think it’s when artists become too right leaning is where I’m like “Really?”. Im fine with artists being moderate or centrist or whatever, but I still would feel guilty for supporting people with such behaviour.

 

Like people love H.P Lovecraft even though that guy is racist.

Depends on your political interests. I'm very right leaning and I personally cannot stand the average social justice warrior writer or actor for their individual spoutings of nonsense on Twitter. There's some I adore for the books they write or the roles they play, but if I'm seeing J.K. Rowling's incessant pressure of 'wE nEeDz InTeRrAcIaL mArRiAgEs FoR EvErYoNe' and 'HeRmIoNe ShOuLd Be A bLaCk MuSlIm LeSbIaN' she can go sod right off.  

 

Lovecraft is a different story. The guy was born in an entirely separate time from ours and you cannot compare the late 19th century / early 20th century to ours whatsoever. And for his writings; it's fiction. Get over it if Cthulhu has a distaste for the Chinese or whatever the fuck you can uncover from his warped words. The majority of people during those times were racists.

 

For another thing, Antifa are actively looking to stir up drama where there isn't. If I remember correctly there have been at least five black metal bands in the past few months who haven't been able to finish their tours or been refused playtime during festivals and the like because these liberals think it's either necessary to threaten the venue or bands personally and thus gigs have been cancelled out of safety, or they've gotten the venues and / or municipalities to believe the bands have racist / national-socialist intentions whereas most black metal bands don't give a damn about political leanings and want to be left alone on the subject. It's just disgusting. 

Edited July 12, 2019 by Lestat

[psychonnect_rozen 585]

2 minutes ago, Lestat said:

For another thing, Antifa are actively looking to stir up drama where there isn't. If I remember correctly there have been at least five black metal bands in the past few months who haven't been able to finish their tours or been refused playtime during festivals and the like because these liberals think it's either necessary to threaten the venue or bands personally and thus gigs have been cancelled out of safety, or they've gotten the venues and / or municipalities to believe the bands have racist / national-socialist intentions whereas most black metal bands don't give a damn about political leanings and want to be left alone on the subject. It's just disgusting. 

Lol. Isn’t like every black metal

band controversial to some extent? 

 

Regardless, as someone who’s pretty left leaning, I often live and let live for an actors political opinions. Hell, most of the time they rarely announce them unless something shitty happens.

 

7 minutes ago, Lestat said:

social justice warrior 

I don’t mean to be rude or harsh in anyway but I feel like that word is overused wayy to much. I agree that some SJW’s can be extreme, but I feel like that word is used wayyy to much to describe someone who is just wanting equal rights even if they are not crazy SJW’s

 

“You’re pro gay? SJW LIBTARD!!”. I’ve seen it many times

 

[secret_no_03 959]

1 hour ago, YuyoDrift said:

Curve-ball scenario for you like-minded people here on MH: (Sorry I highjacked the thread @psychonnect_rozen)

 

What if you found out that a piece of art was created using things that were from victims, like blood or ground up bones mixed into the paint?

What if before recording an album, the fucked-up member goes and abuses/rapes/kills someone to warm up?

 

I think that realization might make me change my view  completely since it's happening at the same moment of creation of the artwork/music.

First I'd actually be like "WHAAAAT!?!??!?, holy shit that's fucked up!", then I'd feel sick to my stomach.

If I felt that way I'd hate violin since violin strings used to be made of cat guts and I love cats. 

[Gesu 1537]

1 minute ago, secret_no_03 said:

If I felt that way I'd hate violin since violin strings used to be made of cat guts and I love cats. 

Well, ya learn somethin' new every day... that's gross, though (says me listening to a song with loads of violin on repeat).

[YuyoDrift 1540]

18 minutes ago, psychonnect_rozen said:

as someone who’s pretty left leaning, I often live and let live for an actors political opinions

This is where you and I would differ. My views are on the opposing side.

Actors, public figures, famous people, or whatever we call them now, should NEVER step outside their little palace of fame and fortune to try and influence their ideas onto their fans, especially politics. You see people being told to buy bath water for fucking sake and they do, what happens when they tell them to slander politicians or candidates for presidency they don't like again?

36 minutes ago, psychonnect_rozen said:

Hell, most of the time they rarely announce them unless something shitty happens.

I could get pissed off just writing this but fuck it, I've seen some of the dumbest shit come out of Hollywood stars' mouths, that you'd question how the fuck people allowed someone like that to become famous. Some of the most stuck up, asinine, hypocrite shit that makes Donald Trump's tweets look like comedic relief. They are the LAST people I want to hear politics from, just stick to your fucking movie/tv roles fame, you idiots.

 

Hell I'll be accepting, and take their views on the actions made regarding politics and how to turn it around, but it's never that. It's always a direct criticism of the individual who makes the decisions, like that is gonna do something. Fucking embarrassing.

[psychonnect_rozen 585]

3 minutes ago, YuyoDrift said:

Actors, public figures, famous people, or whatever we call them now, should NEVER step outside their little palace of fame and fortune to try and influence their ideas onto their fans, especially politics

I will agree there. If an actor starts pushing an opinion and forces it onto others, that’s where I’m like shut the hell up. The only part where I disagree is if they are just raising awareness for something. (Ex. Leonardo Dicaprio) 

[Gesu 1537]

5 minutes ago, YuyoDrift said:

Actors, public figures, famous people, or whatever we call them now, should NEVER step outside their little palace of fame and fortune to try and influence their ideas onto their fans, especially politics.

Personally, I disagree. They're citizens too, and telling them to shut up just because they're famous sounds kind of ignorant to me. If people want to listen to them and do what they say (or not), they're welcome to, but their opinions are their own and everyone has a right to free speech. I'm really not big on censorship and tbh, I don't care how much I disagree with someone; I would never, ever want them to not have a voice. Yeah, okay, some of the stuff they say is a bit dumb, but if you don't like it, don't pay attention to it. Besides, fame is kind of subjective. They might be famous in one country/culture/whatever but not another, so where do they reach the point where they're famous enough to have to keep their opinions to themselves? That, and you're never gonna shut someone up provided their opinions are strong enough, so it seems kind of pointless and controlling to me. I mean, if there was a law in place saying celebrities couldn't state their opinions on a particular subject, there'd be an uproar, and rightfully so. Provided it's not infringing upon anyone else's human rights, I believe everyone should have the right to say what they feel. Maybe it'd be easier for some if they didn't, but that's an ideal we can't pretend will ever exist.

[secret_no_03 959]

@psychonnect_rozen @YuyoDrift

 

[YuyoDrift 1540]

26 minutes ago, psychonnect_rozen said:

The only part where I disagree is if they are just raising awareness for something. (Ex. Leonardo Dicaprio) 

Oh some actors who are activists for anything outside of politics like world hunger, climate change, and the works are free to do so, but there has to be a large reputation and history of them doing this to back it up. Leonardo Dicaprio has been my childhood crush since forever, and if he would say something out of character (which I know he would not do) to wrongfully use his influence for some sort hidden motive/agenda, I'd be like "Leo nooooooo.....what got into you?". There's only so much they can do before someone asks for their opinion in politics, and thus far the wiser actors can state a neutral answer that will not leave room for ambiguity.

 

@Gesu I understand. I personally don't think anyone who could possess this much "power" by any means, should use it for anything other than awareness and helping others in the world, and I applaud those who have gone out of their way to help the world in their own way. You mention their popularity outside the USA, and that is another factor they need to consider, because the roles they play in tv and film are highly idolized and respected (look at all those outraged people online who don't like casting roles or storylines and witchhunt the actor personally) and can be crushed in an instant if one quote from their mouths conflicts with anyone out in the world. So really, for the sake of both themselves and the people that watch them, they need to learn that there are others in the world who can handle world issues.

 

I've gotten off topic, but if you want to agree to disagree more, you're welcome to PM me.

 

[secret_no_03 959]

18 minutes ago, YuyoDrift said:

Oh some actors who are activists for anything outside of politics like world hunger, climate change, and the works are free to do so, but there has to be a large reputation and history of them doing this to back it up. Leonardo Dicaprio has been my childhood crush since forever, and if he would say something out of character (which I know he would not do) to wrongfully use his influence for some sort hidden motive/agenda, I'd be like "Leo nooooooo.....what got into you?". There's only so much they can do before someone asks for their opinion in politics, and thus far the wiser actors can state a neutral answer that will not leave room for ambiguity.

 

@Gesu

George Clooney is the perfect example of a celebrity using his fame for good, he's been caring about Darfur before and after anyone even heard of it among other places.

[nekkichi 6043]

8 hours ago, Gesu said:

What really pisses me off is when people drop someone for something that hasn't even been proven. "So-and-so might have committed this crime". Might. You are not a detective investigator; shut up and carry on with your life as normal until you know something or can at least piece something together with evidence. Similarly, it bugs me when someone doing something maybe a bit unusual/embarrassing is seen as bad because people want the "tea" that can unjustly defame someone. "So-and-so had sex with x amount of people". It's their business, not yours, so stay out of it and - you guessed it - carry on with your life as normal. I can understand why people might have a hard time separating the art from the artist if they've done something genuinely bad because it can make you feel guilty for supporting them, but if it's for some stupid shite like that, I just can't stand it and I don't really get why everyone cares so much.

the "so and so allegedly rapes minors in their basement dungeon" tea usually goes around in public when someone has enough people being in know of the fact, but legally there's little actual tangible evidence;

typically filtering through your sources (as in = "not trusting tmz as a Good Insight Source" during sexual assault drama outbreaks) might help as some sort of a credibility indicator, but publishing "allegations" is the way to not get counter-sued for libel on spot.

considering literally FBI itself already has a public history of not pursuing potential pedos on a tip-off, entirely dismissing situations that have no chance at being uncovered until the boiling tea literally starts spilling around because everyone involved on the abusing side is either really well connected, or is affluent enough to buy their way out of investigations, and rationalizing that with minding tha business is cute.

this obv is not about visual kei (which your post also isn't), but that johny jr pedo thread was a good indicator of what exact koolaid some of you are on p much 24/7 on here.

10 hours ago, Seelentau said:

Yeah, fuck them and their sexual orientation they have literally no control over. Because as we all know, only pedophiles do bad things because of their sexual orientation. A gay person has never raped another person ever! /s

6 hours ago, Lestat said:

I'm very right leaning and I personally cannot stand the average social justice warrior writer or actor for their individual spoutings of nonsense on Twitter.

good thread. 

[Gesu 1537]

9 hours ago, nekkichi said:

considering literally FBI itself already has a public history of not pursuing potential pedos on a tip-off, entirely dismissing situations that have no chance at being uncovered until the boiling tea literally starts spilling around because everyone involved on the abusing side is either really well connected, or is affluent enough to buy their way out of investigations, and rationalizing that with minding tha business is cute.

My point wasn't that these situations should be entirely dismissed. It was more that we shouldn't try to investigate them ourselves/come to any conclusions before we know anything because it's not strictly our business until something is uncovered by the people who are actually qualified to do so. What is a load of people speculating on the Internet gonna do in terms of convicting someone that the FBI/police force can't? Sure, it can add some fuel to the fire (and it almost always does), but it's not actually gonna do an awful lot in the long run. The courts value evidence, not "someone on the Internet said this but we can't actually find any proof that what they said is true".

[nekkichi 6043]

48 minutes ago, Gesu said:

My point wasn't that these situations should be entirely dismissed. It was more that we shouldn't try to investigate them ourselves/come to any conclusions before we know anything because it's not strictly our business until something is uncovered by the people who are actually qualified to do so. What is a load of people speculating on the Internet gonna do in terms of convicting someone that the FBI/police force can't? Sure, it can add some fuel to the fire (and it almost always does), but it's not actually gonna do an awful lot in the long run.

I'm not sure what you're having an exact problem with in this case - is it the cancel culture that turns someone's downfall into spectacle w/o actually going beside the supeficial drama,

 

or is it the gossip and OTT speculation that often surfaces during somebody's narrative getting into the internet gossip mill? (which is not even inherently bad - in most cases, it's based on real habits of so and so, often downplayed by whoever they messed with out of shame or whatever other reasons.)

48 minutes ago, Gesu said:

What is a load of people speculating on the Internet gonna do in terms of convicting someone that the FBI/police force can't? Sure, it can add some fuel to the fire (and it almost always does), but it's not actually gonna do an awful lot in the long run

look up Bryan Singer's current state of career.

Edited July 13, 2019 by nekkichi