Early Dir en grey influences

[Ameyoru 30]

Sooo I made a list of Diru early songs that sound pretty similar to other band songs. What do you think, influence or plagiarism?

Here's the list, there are maybe more, if you know another put it in the comments 

-Kiri to Mayu = Shade by Luna Sea
-Garden = Moon by Luna Sea
-Unknown…Despair…a Lost = G by Luna Sea
-I'll = Tsuioku by D≒SIRE and Miss Moonlight by Kuroyume
-Cage = Toge by Kuroyume
-mazohyst of decadence = Yuri no Hanataba by Kuroyume
-ZAN- = 親愛なるDEATHMASK by Kuroyume
-Wake = Hurt by Luna Sea
-umbrella = Coma America by Amen
-El bajo de Itoshisa wa Fuhai ni Tsuki = Romancia by Kuroyume

[Himeaimichu 1535]

Kaoru's first band, DIE:STERIA, was a cover band in high school that played X Japan, Kamaitachi, Zi:Kill and Boowy songs.

I think Shinya also said that Zi:Kill really influenced his drumming style.

The entire name of Dir en Grey was taken from a Lareine song called Dir en Gray (Supposedly, Kamijo told them to use the name), which in turn, was taken from a band from the early 90's called Dir&Gray, an obscure band whose vocalist would later sing for Kneuklid Romance, and whose guitarist would be a roadie for Zi:Kill.

 

Personally, I don't think any of these are plagiarism, knowing the Visual Kei scene. It's more acceptable in the Vkei scene to do covers of songs like that, than it is in other music scenes. I think of it like sampling in old school Hip Hop. 

[Himeaimichu 1535]

Oh, also, I noticed Garden also has a lot of influence from "Under..." by Kuroyume. 

Hell, that song could probably be considered one of the most influential songs of 90's Visual Kei

[nekkichi 6043]

Nice analysis of vk music you've got there!

 

I've recently started to write down some ideas I've had about the genre, putting them togheter and starting to make conclusions about it's story and development as a whole scene.

 

Would you like to share your thoughts with me?

[Himeaimichu 1535]

1 hour ago, nekkichi said:

Nice analysis of vk music you've got there!

 

I've recently started to write down some ideas I've had about the genre, putting them togheter and starting to make conclusions about it's story and development as a whole scene.

 

Would you like to share your thoughts with me?

Lol. Still haven't shared my thoughts with that dude.

Probably don't ever plan to.

[libertine 125]

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Edited December 12, 2019 by libertine

[saiko 429]

2 hours ago, libertine said:

Yeah, it's not like we're talking about a doctoral dissertation. This is commercially produced music by dudes who basically only started playing music because of the bands they ended up copying (who also started out like that). It's simply the coolest thing they know at that point. This applies to all VK bands, just like it applied to all the rock music pioneers. Eventually those influences fade, but not just because the players suddenly grew a spine and started playing original music like all real musicians. What actually happens is that they live, gain experience and accumulate more influences, becoming more eclectic over time. With Dir en Grey those influences can be particularly difficult to trace, but they're there. Along with the patterns they learned when covering the bands of their youth.

 

People always knock the small indie bands for unoriginality. Sure, indie VK can be incredibly low-effort and some bands seem to be in no hurry to stop being tribute bands, but sometimes I wonder if things would be different if new bands could got the same opportunities as Dir en Grey. What if your musical community wasn't degrading, but actually still kind of blossoming? What if all the most popular bands in that scene disbanded within those first few critical years leaving space for newcomers? What if a member of one of those bands ended up lending you some of his reputation and production talent to give your major debut a boost? Maybe that would have given this hypothetical band just enough of an audience to keep playing. Maybe that would have helped them reach a point where they can earn their living with music and therefore can fully dedicate themselves to growing as musicians. Maybe they'd be around long enough for people to forget they once had those blatant influences and only know them as the legends that now influence the newer generations. Of course there are infinite possibilities for a band to thrive or fail, but you know, everything counts.

 

So I really don't care too much about influence/plagiarism. I don't really judge bands based on it, but I do like to learn about it and build a more complete and human picture of the scene. I also think it's important to educate people on the matter, because I hate where the talk about influence inevitably leads when people have a limited understanding of it.

Been thinking the same all this time.  Always remember that the Dir guys where picked by Yoshiki to get their first major single produced (and were produce by Yukiya right before that). They all had between 19 and 24 yo at that time, and were so little talented that they also performed terrible at a Budokan hall that they managed to pack with only a year or a year and a half of being born... everything was like a rollercoaster to them: one year they form, the other they manage to appear on TV and make a Budokan performance and the other they are blessed with the arranges of the drummer of one of Japan hot acts of the time... A very Justin-Biebery story if you ask me... I wonder what could have happenes to them if they actually didn't make it to get all that infrastructure behind them at their very beginning, and how the hell did they do it to get it so immediatly... They were cool, but c'mon not THAT revolutionary! Maybe they would have been nobody and only left a couple of weird indie kotekote demos like the ones we hardcore fans desperately look for...

Edited December 8, 2018 by saiko

[Seelentau 884]

10 hours ago, AimiGen7 said:

Kaoru's first band, DIE:STERIA, was a cover band

I think nearly everyone's first band was a cover band, except for Kyo's. And even he performed in Haijin, which was a cover band.

So yeah, to me it seems covering other bands or copying their kind of music isn't considered as bad in Japan as it is in the West.

[libertine 125]

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Edited December 12, 2019 by libertine

[saiko 429]

54 minutes ago, libertine said:

I'm not a scholar on the subject, but I suspect Tommy's connections and arrangement with Yoshiki had a lot to do with how much Dir en Grey was able to achieve early on. Particularly around their major debut. I'm sure most of the money from that flowed straight to Yoshiki's back pocket.

I sent you a private message, in case you haven't noticed!😊

[Doesn'tEvenGoHere 121]

"Audrey" sounds like Kuroyume's "Maria" re-imagined, tbh. 

[seikun 317]

In the 90's is when Visual Kei achieves a certain distinctive sound that distinguishes the style. Perhaps the influences you see in early Dir en grey has to do with that; they liked the sound and they were learning from it.

Edited December 13, 2018 by seikun