Visual kei is dead! (at least on youtube)

[hiroki 5521]

Somehow I'm skeptical that foreigners' interest in vk is declining. Of course this isn't something quantifiable, but taking a cursory look at Twitter will suggest that even the indies vk bands show some awareness of their foreign fanbase (whether and to what extent they cater to this fanbase is a separate question). Also, the sheer number of VK bands having overseas tours these days indicates that there's still a healthy demand for vk bands outside of Japan - in addition to those who have toured Europe in the past couple of years, bands like DIV, Plastic Tree, Royz also regularly perform in Asia.

 

The youtube question is tricky, and like what Zess has said I suspect it's more of a consequence of copyright enforcement than a reliable index of foreign popularity. Just look at how many PV or full songs of obscure indies as well as disbanded bands do exist on youtube because there's a lot less surveillance in that case and these videos get taken down a lot less than e.g. Nightmare or ViViD PVs. Which is kinda ironic because obviously the disbanded bands won't be there to benefit from the publicization of their music lol.

 

Also, it'll be great if ppl can stop using "vk is dying!" as a sneaky shorthand for "the kind of vk I like is dying!".....

[sai 868]

Also, it'll be great if ppl can stop using "vk is dying!" as a sneaky shorthand for "the kind of vk I like is dying!".....

 

Jesus, this. Y'all need to get that stick out of your ass and stop acting like bitter ex-girl/boyfriends that still aren't over their ex 2 years later. Sorry if this sounds too rude but it's just something that really irks me. Also by saying it, you're basically insulting the music taste of everyone on this board who is into current VK, and that's what I won't have. Besides, if VK was still the same as 10 years ago, I'm pretty sure 70% of you guys would be complaining about how VK has become too stale.

 

Now Zess has already hit the nail right on the head. The reason why there's less VK on YouTube is purely because of copyright issues. I sometimes also get a feeling some labels try to block off foreign fans from getting access to their content. The reason why can probably be found in the recent drama surrounding Nocturnal Bloodlust. VK bands are aware they have foreign fans, so do the labels. They know very well how much overseas VK fans download, and they're seeing it as damaging to their industry (whether this is true or not is another story). Selling their stuff on their webshop alone, not putting any content on international webmedia or blocking their non-Japanese viewers, it all doesn't help people who are looking for new VK, nor does it help people discover VK. I mean, when I got into VK you had like 30 different VK blogspots, YouTube was filled with VK PVs, Tainted World (god fuck I'm old) had over 13k members iirc. All of that is now no longer either; lots of blogspots have been deleted or become inactive (megauploads death also had a lot to do with this), YouTube hardly holds any VK videos anymore and MH has also seen a decrease in activity. I don't think people are less interested, there's just less chance for people to actually get access to the content.

 

I feel like VK bands should follow Boris' trend and put their full albums up for streaming for about a week before the album releases. Then take the stream down the day the album releases. They could stream the album or single on their own website and it wouldn't cost them a fortune. They could still sell the PV with the limited edition then, but at least people wouldn't be expected to pay everything up front.

[DogManX 179]

Somehow I'm skeptical that foreigners' interest in vk is declining. Of course this isn't something quantifiable, but taking a cursory look at Twitter will suggest that even the indies vk bands show some awareness of their foreign fanbase (whether and to what extent they cater to this fanbase is a separate question). Also, the sheer number of VK bands having overseas tours these days indicates that there's still a healthy demand for vk bands outside of Japan - in addition to those who have toured Europe in the past couple of years, bands like DIV, Plastic Tree, Royz also regularly perform in Asia.

 

The youtube question is tricky, and like what Zess has said I suspect it's more of a consequence of copyright enforcement than a reliable index of foreign popularity. Just look at how many PV or full songs of obscure indies as well as disbanded bands do exist on youtube because there's a lot less surveillance in that case and these videos get taken down a lot less than e.g. Nightmare or ViViD PVs. Which is kinda ironic because obviously the disbanded bands won't be there to benefit from the publicization of their music lol.

 

Also, it'll be great if ppl can stop using "vk is dying!" as a sneaky shorthand for "the kind of vk I like is dying!".....

 

This. Just a quick search on youtube reveals there's still alot of content up there. Also, I remember back in 2008 PVs being deleted already. I would say the VK thing in mid-2000's was a trend-kind of thing. When there was really the first time these bands got alot more attention than they used to before outside japan. Nowadays I think that shock and awe value is just sort of overused. People don't get excited by dragqueens playing heavy guitars anymore, and there are a lot of other crazy things arising everyday on youtube and other platforms nowadays.

The quality of the music is highly subjective. And I seriously don't think that made "VK" big in the first place. The demographic kinda speaks for itself. The fact that many VK bands nowadays apear as mere session bands who disband relatively quickly doesn't make it easy, too. But I don't think it's the main factor. I think people just go on to like different things. In this more and more medial world fashion changes alot faster than usual, I guess. And big viral hits last a mere week before being replaced by another "hit".

 

And really, where is the statistics that VK was ever "alive" on yt in the first place? Are there video view counts of the time where its supposed "golden age" was? Just wanna know...

[pinkmakona 1810]

Today most Visual Kei bands sound the same and their music (poppish and many times unispired, in my opinion) doesn't appeal to me.

 

Also, most Visual Kei bands have totally gotten rid of the dramatic performances and the shock factor behind the aesthetics that it feels there is not need for makeup and specific type of clothes anymore if they are not going to do anything with them apart from trying to simply look cute and fashionable.

LOL, this person ALWAYS has to mention 90s vk in every bloody damn thread. Yawn.

[seikun 317]

LOL, this person ALWAYS has to mention 90s vk in every bloody damn thread. Yawn.

Don't I have the right to do so just like you have the right to mention whatever period of Visual Kei as you like?

 

Why would that invalidate a comment?

[seikun 317]

as been mentioned above it's the copyright bullshit. people aren't get motivated to upload full pvs just to have thier account taken down after few weeks. and seriously guys, who gives a fuck about vk pvs? same decorations, same room, different guys. it's good enough to check out the song and new look, but that's it. i myself rarely watch a pv for more than once (the only exception is favorite bands' pvs).

 

I highly doubt it that copyright is ruining things for Visual Kei today anymore than the music most bands are making. At least we could agree in that the copyright thing might make thigs worse but Visual Kei has been in a critical situation (so to speak) for quite some time. Visual Kei is not interesting and appealing for most people these days. The niche is feeble now.

 

Most Visual Kei bands that are "visible" appeal to teen girls. As soon as they grow up they will eventually stop liking those bands because they don't meet their new interests as adults.

[pinkmakona 1810]

I thought we were talking about vk videos on youtube here though? Oh, i know what your favourite era of vk is VERY WELL. You always say the same thing about it over and over again and moan about new vk all the time if it doesn't sound and look like the 90s stuff.

 

i remember we've already discussed this shit in another thread and came to the conclusion that people are just 2lazy2search for some good bands, whining about how shitty vk is nowadays.

 

the same about the shock factor. there is a proper thread about it. go and whine there. this thread is about jewtube and decrease of the vk videos there lately, in case you haven't read the OP-post.

This.

[sai 868]

^ Exactly. You have every right to post your opinion on that matter but this isn't the right thread to do it. Gaz  already linked a thread concerning the shock factor, so I'm going to link you to our good old thread "New VK vs. Old VK" right here, so if there's anything more about this subject that you want to address, do it there and not here. This thread is about the decline of VK on YouTube. Perhaps the quality of VK is related to it, but if you're going to mention it at least put a link between the topic at hand and your argument, otherwise it'll be really confusing for the others.

[Nuclearnemo 5]

I think your seeing a shift in what people like nowadays. VK used to be the big thing when it came to music from japan. But you see more and more that non-vk japanese bands are gaining popularity (one ok rock, coldrain..even scandal). Also the copyright part plays a huge part, but it is kinda strange. That VK bands do have copyright crap on youtube but bands like one ok rock and scandal post there own PV's on youtube...So I believe the record labels are indeed destroying any chance most VK bands have at gaining an international fanbase around the world. Because be fair, would you by a cd of a band if you can't find anything about them on the internet? Not give them one listen?

[BrenGun 2261]

1. copyright

2. Japanese bands still think they live in the 90s so that selling PV's still works.

3. Japanese bands think that people won't buy CD+DVD if they put the full PV on youtube.

4. Japanese bands think that people won't buy their CD if they put the full PV on youtube.

5. Japanese bands simply want to sell video and not to promote the video only. They want to make MONEY.

 

They simply don't want to give it us for free.

[keyinjpop 89]

I think your seeing a shift in what people like nowadays. VK used to be the big thing when it came to music from japan. But you see more and more that non-vk japanese bands are gaining popularity (one ok rock, coldrain..even scandal). Also the copyright part plays a huge part, but it is kinda strange. That VK bands do have copyright crap on youtube but bands like one ok rock and scandal post there own PV's on youtube...So I believe the record labels are indeed destroying any chance most VK bands have at gaining an international fanbase around the world. Because be fair, would you by a cd of a band if you can't find anything about them on the internet? Not give them one listen?

I've noticed that as well that non-VK bands are getting more recognition from foreign fans (those same bands too and a few others like SPYAIR and sakanaction). There is a shift in what people are looking for, the teens of the 10s aren't into what the teens of the 00s were into (some exceptions of course).

[blackdoll 907]

 

Also, it'll be great if ppl can stop using "vk is dying!" as a sneaky shorthand for "the kind of vk I like is dying!".....

[xriko 165]

Personaly, I'm tired of VK...

Not by the sound, I' still love it. But tired of waving all the Internet just to found one song distributed 10years before and that no one still have or don't want to share.

I understand this feel, but still they are not okay to give the song, give us information about the release, just don't wave your rip (-_-')

but checking 10 hours google just to found someone who listen one time to a song, and never found anymore information... so tiring.

 

Sometime it took me 3/4 years to found a CD i was looking for before...

 

And the copyright, and this and that...

Also lot of false or fake information...

 

I wish there was a PURE website information, giving 100%sure information, but also the "uncertain" who reclame to be approve...

 

Like the CD demo of core the child, yes it seem there is one. And i'm not talking about ground zero or the v-a song release, a real CD demo...

 

Vk isn't dying, past VK is forgotten with the deleting of old website, page profile, information, ...

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

^ Well, I think that's part of the reason why Deadeyes Star was created: to at least have a central place to find that information with authors and editors that can be easily approached if they forgot or misconstrued some information (unlike JAME, who only really write about groups that have a large following, or Grassthread, that I'm under the impression is ran by 1 person who couldn't possibly keep everything up to date all on their own). Granted, the discography section isn't done yet, but it will be eventually and hopefully slow the decay of accurate information.

 

That was my motivation, at least, for wanting to be a contributor.

[xriko 165]

And when a full website will be on, copyright or something else will erase all x)

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

I hope not. I think the only thing it could possibly run into is that some vkei record labels, iirc, technically own promotional pictures. However, if last.fm doesn't get approached for that, nor random blogspots or tumblogs I think we should be fine.

[Champ213 1858]

about the topic: i kinda disagree about it because now some japanese bands learned how to use youtube themselves. i dont remember seeing any official channel of indie bands from mid or late 00's, not even saying about early 00's lawl.

 

 

Well, Youtube only exists since 2005, so obviously there won't be any channels from early to mid 00's bands.

 

But in principle, you are right. 5 years ago hardly any indie vk band would bother with Youtube. Now it is very common for them to have channels or just some videos with samples. Rarely full PVs, because obviously selling PV-DVDs as an extra is still part of the vk business model.

 

 

And yes, copyright has gotten much more strict and complicated on YT. I used to upload vk videos on YT once in a while. I had like a million views on Versailles' Ascendead Master (which wasn't even a DVD rip, but ripped from TV). I even had a few hundred subscribers, lol. But after like 2 years the Ascended Master video was taken down due to copyright, as were some of my other videos. I made all my remaining videos private, except for some Versailles comment video. It just wasn't worth the trouble.

 

 

And as for the other question: why are foreigners in general less interested in vk than a few years ago? I will tell you why. It was only a fad to begin with. Nothing more, nothing less. When I got into vk about 14 years ago, there were very few foreigners interested in vk. Then from 2005/2006 onwards, it became a huge fad. A lot of bands, including smaller ones, started to tour overseas. Shops that were previously focused on Anime suddenly began stocking jrock. A lot of people jumped on the bandwaggon during that time. After a few years, I would say 2010/2011 onwards, the fad began to die down. People left the bandwaggon again. Apparently Kpop became the new fad, and I'm sure that one will die one day too.

 

I'd say we are still above the 2005-level of overseas vk fandom, but not as much as during the height of the fad.

[Gaz 1097]

And as for the other question: why are foreigners in general less interested in vk than a few years ago? I will tell you why. It was only a fad to begin with. Nothing more, nothing less. When I got into vk about 14 years ago, there were very few foreigners interested in vk. Then from 2005/2006 onwards, it became a huge fad. A lot of bands, including smaller ones, started to tour overseas. Shop that were previously focused on Anime suddenly began stocking jrock. A lot of people jumped on the bandwaggon during that time. After a few years, I would say 2010/2011 onwards, the fad began to die down. People left the bandwaggon again. Apparently Kpop became the new fad, and I'm sure that one will die one day too.

totally agree with this. 5 years ago it was easy to find a vk "fan" even in my small city. more to say some vk pvs were broadcasted on some ukrainian music tv channels! and then in 2012 there was a wave of k-poop and it separated people who actually cared about music and people who were listening to it just to stay in trend. 

[Ikna 1225]

Also another thread where we can discuss this whole "old VK is better/worse" thing (Gaz posted a link to another thread)

 

The title of this thread is definitely misleading a bit. Also everyone else has said, what's to say and mentioned the shift in interests, copyright and so on. I want to add a bit of my perspective, mainly from my subjective experience with the Austrian and German fanbase, which is mostly based on real life experiences (with my rather tiny and small local VK fanbase) and what i have witnessed on several national and German Forums, Boards and Websites.

 

I came in contact with VK in 2003 and 2004. I have heard of it even earlier in Anime Magazines, but didn't pay any attention to it. Back at this time it was difficult to get information on VK bands. Only if you have been to Japan yourself you would have come into contact with more obscure indies bands. The groups that were known over here were all the big groups, the ones signed to major labels or which were pretty popular and well established: Dir en grey, Malice Mizer, Buck-Tick, Luna Sea, Pierrot, L'arc~en~Ciel, Moi dix Mois and Gackt (technically not VK, but he was in Malice and so appealed to the european fans). My first real experience with VK was, when the distributor Gan-Shin was founded and started to release some VK CDs here. Mind you, they were still hard to get, at least in Austria. Only one store carried Dir en grey and Moi dix Mois' albums and so I bought them. The only reason why I knew about these bands was because of Manga magazines.

 

I am sure there were several people in the early 00s who came to VK not through the Anime "Scene" but I'll say for the majority of the fanbase at this time this was the entrance. Let's say 90% of the German fanbase at least was compromised of Manga reading Weaboos, who threw around japanese words in their German sentences, because it was so cool and so on. VK appealed to them, because they already lived in a fantasy world and bubble, where everything is "kawaii" and where Japan was the garden Eden of the Earth, filled with hot crossdressing men. The Anime fandom was very big at the time, as we were still in the midst of the Anime and Manga boom, which started somewhere in the mid to late 90s. Everything japanese was considered "fresh", "new" and "exotic".

 

Now more then 10 years have passed and surely the world isn't the same. Nowadays everything is much more accessible. You don't need to spend shitton of money and habe patience to be able to get your hands on a new CD of your favourite VK band. You can buy their CD now easily in Online Stores or just download them. The Anime and Manga boom is over too. Being a Weaboo was always frowned upon, but today it seems to have become an even heavier stigma. In the 00s young teens still could go away trying to appear unique and cool by dressing up as self proclaimed "Visus" (yeah, they really saw Visual kei as some kind of subculture…) and shout "people who criticize me just don't understand it!". But if you do this today, then you are considered highly immature, dumb and annoying.

 

Of course most of those "Visus" grew out of it (and very fast). Almost no one of these people I knew (and have even seen in real life) sticked to it. Most of them moved on and became "normal". Others entered other subcultures in the course of the 00s (such as Scene and recently Hipster). A big majority of them don't even want to remember their old self, when they cosplayed as Kyo or Ruki daily (even to school) and probaböy washed their hair only once every 8 days (I am not joking. Many Visus' outfits and body hygiene were bad). I have to say that the current and modern fanbase isn't nearly as crazy as the old one. The cosplays and outfits have gotten better and I feel the amount of delusional fans has started to decrease.

 

So simply put: because it was new and because the Anime/Manga community offered a quick and well guided portal to it, VK was very popular here between 2004 and 2008. It was still fresh and the many japanese oriented fansites and boards were often the only information sources – hence there was also a bit more of a sense of community. Many places were similiar in activity and interest as MH is now. People regulary chatted about what band X is doing, even if the topics were often arbitrary. When I look into the same forums today, there is almost no activity left. That surely gives you the impression as if the VK fan scene would be dead. But MH actually disproves it. I'd say that since VK has become "normalized" and doesn't seem so new and exotic anymore (and since many people have stopped paying attention to it), the scene has become a lot smaller.

 

It's true however (but that's more for the new vs old VK thread) that many people left the scene, because the music has changed and they don't pay any attention to newer releases. I am sure some of them still enjoy the old music they have come to like, but they don't care about any new releases or bands. I myself had stopped listening to VK between 2006 and 2007 (which was a rather short pause anyway). VK lost some fans, as it started to become different, but as you can see it also gained new ones. I guess we could discuss this as some kind of generational conflict (as many of the new fans are in the age we old ones were when we first discovered VK, but yet grew up with other music and have different tastes) in the other thread.

 

Also finally: are music videos really that important anymore? I have the feeling that it's not only limited to VK, but the overall music scene. Music videos don't seem to have the same value as they did maybe 10 or 20 years ago, when MVs were broadcasted on MTV (when it was still mainly a music TV channel) and MVs were often produced with high budget. My mom used to own Michael Jackson's Thriller music video on VHS and it was the extended long edition with Making of. The VHS was probably around 2 or 3 hours. It was expensive, but she loved it and watched it many times. How often do we modern consumers watch a MV? Would we buy a MV with making of for 20-30€? I don't think so. Many people have stated they watch PVs and MVs one time on youtube and never again. We live in a world, where everything has started to become fast lived and is consumed like Junk Food. This is logical, because the WWW offers so much and in masses at a few clicks. Our consuming behaviour isn't the same, so I guess the aproach to MVs and PVs has changed drastically. I know a band which personally would like to make MVs for their music, but they don't do it, because they know people would watch them one time and it would be more expensive and profitable. And before they are forced to do a 0815 cheap low budget one they rather produce none.

[lichtlune 915]

So... http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%22jrock%22

 

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=visual%20kei

 

Youtube statistics:

 

visual kei http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=visual%20kei&gprop=youtube&cmpt=q

 

Jrock: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=jrock&gprop=youtube&cmpt=q

 

 

 

Don't know if I'm doing this right but this suggests vk is dying in a way. 

 

 

Also i think music videos are still very useful. When someone searches a band they normally find music videos and things first and that's how they get into the music. And music videos if done well can be very enjoyable. I don't know about you guys but if the pv is good and in good quality i will watch it more than once. 

[Champ213 1858]

Well, it pretty much confirms what I was saying. There was a short-term fad between 2005-2011, give a year or two. The fad is over and we are nearing the pre-fad level of interest again.

 

The fad actually took a bit longer to reach some central/south american countries, so it's still somewhat strong there, but it will wane as well.

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

I will be bold enough to say that the crack down on file sharing sites helped essentially "kill it." I'm not disagreeing with the fad aspect at all, but not having access to new material super easily definitely did not help those who only had passing interest. 

[seikun 317]

As far as I know Visual Kei has had a decent amount of fans in my country (Chile) since at least the mid 90's. Still events are held based on Visual Kei. There is this alternative disco that plays Visual Kei music (especially 90's VK) and you can watch PVs and dance to the songs of Visual Kei bands. There was so sudden massive "invasion" of Visual Kei since 2006 till about 2010, but there were already a lot of fans prior to this ranging from teens to young adults and many still love VK and stick around the scene in some way or another.

[doombox 4421]

Also finally: are music videos really that important anymore? I have the feeling that it's not only limited to VK, but the overall music scene. Music videos don't seem to have the same value as they did maybe 10 or 20 years ago, when MVs were broadcasted on MTV (when it was still mainly a music TV channel) and MVs were often produced with high budget. My mom used to own Michael Jackson's Thriller music video on VHS and it was the extended long edition with Making of. The VHS was probably around 2 or 3 hours. It was expensive, but she loved it and watched it many times. How often do we modern consumers watch a MV? Would we buy a MV with making of for 20-30€? I don't think so. Many people have stated they watch PVs and MVs one time on youtube and never again. We live in a world, where everything has started to become fast lived and is consumed like Junk Food. This is logical, because the WWW offers so much and in masses at a few clicks. Our consuming behaviour isn't the same, so I guess the aproach to MVs and PVs has changed drastically. I know a band which personally would like to make MVs for their music, but they don't do it, because they know people would watch them one time and it would be more expensive and profitable. And before they are forced to do a 0815 cheap low budget one they rather produce none.

Maybe I'm not the norm in this situation but I buy mostly limited editions from specific bands only for the music video and BTS stuff. Especially making of PVs. If I really like the art direction of a band it's worth it to me because 1,) I get to see the band being themselves and creating things, 2,) I don't trust that my favorite PVs will remain on youtube. In this very case, MUCC the main Japanese band I follow, doesn't allow their PVs viewed in my country anymore. So purchasing the PV is the only way I can see it repeatedly whenever I want to. Reuploads on other sites like daily motion have a high likelyhood of getting pulled down. And I agree with your mom, any MJ music video documentary is worth its weight in gold. His videos were practically movies unto themselves.

[Champ213 1858]

I will be bold enough to say that the crack down on file sharing sites helped essentially "kill it." I'm not disagreeing with the fad aspect at all, but not having access to new material super easily definitely did not help those who only had passing interest. 

 

I dunno. It's true that a lot of older links died when Megaupload got shut and Mediafire began deleting a lot of stuff. But looking at the number of Blogspots that still exist it does't seem to be much more difficult to get new vk stuff today than it was, say, 2006, when the fad began. At that time you often had to go through Bittorrent. P2P like WinMX for less common files. Nowadays you just to google a release name, and the Blogspot Download is often the highest search result.

 

 

I think we can only speculate why there was a fad and why it died again. As Ikna explained, in Germany the vk boom basically came piggybacked on the Manga fad. And as such it mostly attracted young people in their teens. During that age tastes and interests tend to change quickly, so it's no surprise that many of them left again soon.

 

It wasn't always like that. When I began looking for vk-related stuff on the net around 2000/2001 most non-japanese information sites were run by slightly older folks, usually people in their early 20s, who had been to Japan for a few years during the late 90s and now shared their first-hand experience of the last years of the vk fad in Japan. I'm talking about sites like Rushed Blue, Paradoxical Reality, Japanese Channel and so on.

 

It really was a different fandom. And the high days of 2007-2009 were just a fluke, really.