Illegal downloading should stop... or going on...?

[Guest Magatsu]

In the other thread we kinda discussed this a little bit already.  HERE

 

Some people feel bad if they upload something, some people don't care, some people think that a band can be only known because of illegal downloading...

 

 

So the big question is, and it will be always the big question.

 

Should we really upload our CD's just for free for everyone just right after the damn release? So that CD companies and even DVD etc companies get lesser money?

 

 

Because yes somehow if people don't upload we would not known lot's of bands.

So one side it's good and one side it's not good.

 

 

And I still wonder if this is true yes or no:

http://youtu.be/WJIuYgIvKsc

 

If it's really so what that dude telling us, then those music companies should SHUT up. 

[colorful人生 2777]

Hmm... I've always contemplated on this sort of thing.

 

Personally, when it comes to Japanese music it's been a really odd subject.

If it wasn't for uploading, I probably would have never discovered and delved so far into the Visual Kei genre.

So, as someone who has had that experience, I think that uploads are beneficial in increasing the fan base. 

 

Although, it's gotten to the point where I think that uploading is taken for granted.

This particular community constantly has individuals uploading music, so I often feel like the music is being shared in a sense (as a collective).

Inevitably though, the music is then put up all over the place and freely downloaded by whoever visits the site/blog. 

What I'm hoping that will trend is that uploads become more like incentives to actually purchase music (which is usu. why I include a CD Japan link in my uploads)

[Zeus 7997]

Anything regarding SOPA is still relevant but it may not all still be true. Big businesses are still trying to find ways to crack down on piracy and that won't change until strict anti-piracy laws pass or these companies die out/move towards models that provide that consumer what they want easily at a reasonable price. Which way it will go is still up in the air.

 

So the big question is, and it will be always the big question.
 
Should we really upload our CD's just for free for everyone just right after the damn release? So that CD companies and even DVD etc companies get lesser money?

 

When it comes to "earning money", it's really hard to say who is losing how much money, since we really don't know how much the artist makes versus how much the label makes versus how much it cost to make and produce music. Since we don't know that, we can't talk about the absolute cost of piracy. We just know that piracy relatively trades money for exposure.

[Biopanda 2675]

I guess the best way to think of it would be that without any downloads there would be a total of like 5 international VK fans as the only ones who would ever know about it would be those who were in Japan and stumbled upon it. So even if 100 people download a CD from some tiny VK band where only 1-5 people actually bought the CD, that's still a net gain of 1-5 sales where there would be 0 otherwise. Especially for Japanese bands, I think downloading is an important tool to enable international touring. How many people would really be willing to throw down $30 for a ticket to go see a band they've never heard of in a music scene that they've never heard of?

 

Now that being said, I still support legal methods of getting music when and where you can, but some effort does need to be put in by the bands as well. I don't think it should really be expected of us as fans to have to jump through hoops just to be able to support our favorite artists, especially in today's world which is so global and digital. Yet there the bands are, sometimes outright denying international fans when they sell things through mail-order because Japanese people are apparently terrified of writing non-Japanese addresses and generally refuse to send things overseas.

[Guest Magatsu]

I still think Studio x mixing cost are the highest cost to produce a CD.

But the artist themselves get never much money from the CD who they sell.

The label makes the most of money of course.

 

But my biggest surprise is always.

 

Why can here a CD album be  2000yen. and why should it be in Japan 3,000yen? why are the cost over there way lower then in the rest of the damn world? what's the difference?

Even for a single you pay in Japan lot's of money. over here you would not pay more than 500-1000yen.

Also big change is. why can't we buy music clips on DVD?

 

 

after all... labels say they lost many many money because of that people upload lot's of stuff.

But at the other side it was them who made those "riping" proggies easy avaible.  

 

 

EDIT:

So maybe supporting little bands with sharing some music? till they are bigger in Japan themselves? or if we notice more people buy their music or know them?

[Nyasagi 259]

Prices in Japan are higher, because their salaries are higher. It's cheaper for them and people buy them for this much, so why would the prices be lower?

 

About downloads: people who complain this much about these, always come either from the country where it's easy to get a job, or they have a lot of money they didn't work hard for and they assume everyone's reality is the same. Not all people are able to buy CDs and like I said many times, foreign sales are irrelevant for these bands anyway, Japanese spend more money. The ones who complain the most are usually companies like PSC, lol. If someone can and wants to buy the music, they will. If the band is good, they will get sales. They should take care of themselves better if they aren't getting enough sales, imo. Usually bands who sound terrible complain about

[Guest Magatsu]

Japan is not that expensive man. it's kinda same as Netherlands. sometimes it's even cheaper.. I still don't get why people call Japan expensive. living in Tokyo is expensive oh well living in Amsterdam can be damn expensive too. XD

 

And right now, in lot's of countries it's difficult to get a job, because of the economics.

I try to get a new job for 1 year now.. but nope.. and that in a well doing country....

 

 

 

And I also know that most people from south america etc. Download the most music. and also share the most music at the blogs etc... also Russia.. <- so downloading and re-sharing

[Biopanda 2675]

As for them being expensive, Japan IS just a really expensive country in general. As anyone who has ever tried to buy fruit there :'D As for why CDs are expensive though, I believe it's a number of factors. First of all being that they are priced for Japanese consumption and obviously not taking any foreign currencies into account. Also(this could probably be explained a lot better) there is a law there that was enacted quite a while ago which allows the copyright owner to sell things at whatever price they want and sellers are not allowed to discount this price(this is why the prices are printed right on the CD itself and in the right stores you can find 10+ year old CDs being sold at the original price). I don't think I need to tell you that a company that can force a price and know that people will pay said price will charge the absolute most that they can. There's also a HUGE rental market for CDs in Japan which I don't think exists anywhere else. This allows people to rent and listen(and rip, most likely) the CDs that they want, so to make up for this, the prices of CDs have been driven up.

[Slsr 207]

As Japanese music enthusiast I can't really say I hate music sharing etc. was it morally wrong or not. access to music is way too often rather bad anyway and price high too... Besides many people don't even have that much money to use for music anyway, I don't think for instance enjoying Japanese music should be limited for those who can afford it. Of course I hope people would buy music too. There is actually artist who made that music anyway so some respect regarding issue maybe :x...

[Furik 832]

This is how I feel:

 

I always support artists I really feel that depend on the fans. Lesser known bands or artists and artists who self-release their music deserve my money - because they really put their heart into releasing EPs and albums. I'll gladly spend $10 or more on releases on Bandcamp, etc. 

 

I have an All Access account on Google Play Music so I can stream the latest releases from major artists. It's kind of a hard subject when it comes to streaming music services like All Access, Spotify, Rdio, etc. I don't really have an issue with that - I feel if i'm throwing up a monthly fee, record companies are getting a percentage of that. I don't really know how it works but.. works for me!

 

For artists outside of the U.S., it's hard unless they have a major contract with a U.S. distributor to stream their music. Popular bands like Rammstein I can find perfectly on streaming services but bands like 2NE1 and lynch. only have certain releases on such sites so I have to... download them. I don't feel bad about this at all and here's why: I use the releases only for my personal collection. In no way am I illegally distributing them for financial gain. I just want them to listen to. If I REALLY like a release and it's EASILY accessible in my country, hell yeah i'll buy it (like 2NE1's recent singles, lynch.'s new EP, Dir en grey's new EP, etc.) 

 

Another rough thing here is Grooveshark. I have been a proud supporter of the service and have been using it for years. The company itself is awesome and always sends me free monthly codes, stickers, guitar picks, etc. They are free - for the most part on the site but for access to their mobile apps and custom personalization on the site (and no ads), you have to pay.  They are pretty much the underdog when it comes to streaming sites because they don't have any deals with major labels and every single song (for the most part) on the service is user-uploaded. I use it mainly for video game and anime music. Think of it as the newer generation of 2001 Audiogalaxy and Napster. While I feel good supporting them because I have access to a crap-ton of anime and video game music, the companies aren't making anything from it. They are changing though as they recently signed a deal with a major label but.. they've got a long way to go.

 

Anyway, my two cents.

[seikun 317]

I remember when I just entered the world of fans of japanese music in my country there were guys who sold music and videos from japanese bands. It didn't matter if it was an avi file or the low quality of it, they just sold them for a fairly good price. In those days (10 years ago) not everybody had access to this music as we have it now so these sellers were quite common.

 

This topic is somehow complicated. If it weren't for illegal file sharing most bands would be unknown in the west, they wouldn't have all the buyers they have from the rest of the world (even if the ammount of money spent from this side of the world doesn't benefit the bands much) and they would have almost no chance to play overseas, and tickets for concerts are expensive, really expensive, at least here in Chile.

 

But today even if people download illegal material that doesn't stop them from byuing the original. The problems are always the price and the difficulties to get that material from Japan.

[lichtlune 915]

http://torrentfreak.com/music-piracy-is-not-a-problem-its-an-excuse-120630/

 

This

[Biopanda 2675]

http://torrentfreak.com/music-piracy-is-not-a-problem-its-an-excuse-120630/

 

This

Great article, I think this sums it up a lot better than any of us could I guess VK suffers additionally though... I mean it's marketed towards teenage girls and, well, last time I checked, 14-year-old girls don't have a ton of disposable income from their full-time jobs. It's a bit unrealistic to expect them to spend a ton of money when it's outside of a concert.

[rebelstrik 111]

Without the people sharing the mp3s I still would be stuck with western music. Now I am buying CD of the albums I rly like. Illegal downloads is a nice option to know what are you buying, but that mostly applies for bands i dont know yet, cuz u gonna buy the staff from the musicians u love anyways.

Shity music goes to dumpster.

[lichtlune 915]

Yeah i don't see why anyone would want to buy anything they have no idea about especially when all their promotional videos and things are taken down (looking at you japan)

[TheBistroButcher666 228]

I WROTE A WHOLE BUNCHA STUFF BUT MY BROWSER CRASHED >:U

 

tl;dr

 

I am not anti-file sharing and I agree that the "industry" needs to get with the times or die out like the newspaper and stop trying to pass broken and invasive laws to protect their failing business model. I agree with all that.

 

I just don't believe music should be free and all that other hippy faggot anarcho bullshit people try to spew. If you are a fan, you will do your part to support your favorite artist. Music isn't free and there are a lot of people trying to live off of it. Whether it's the artist themselves, the producer, the ghost writer, the graphic designer and just so many more. It's fine if someone can't afford every single release, I know I can't but just buying something here and there to show your support goes a long way, especially for smaller artists.

 

Basically when I start having fits is when ignorant "fans" try to justify why they shouldn't have to pay for music or how it's soooooo unfair that their super duper indies band can't release a CD in bumbfuck nowhere Paraguay or Canada. Then when said band makes their music available and affordable via digital outlets they still just can't be arsed to spend a few bucks to support the artist.

[Augie1995 325]

While there may be people that think it SHOULD stop, this really is a pointless topic. Even if it should stop, you can't do much about it. If you just say stop, people will still do it. If you enforce a law, people will go around that law. 

 

It's a very pessimistic perception on human nature but it's true nonetheless.

[sai 868]

Yeah i don't see why anyone would want to buy anything they have no idea about especially when all their promotional videos and things are taken down (looking at you japan)

 

This I find particularly annoying. As recently is also happening with Korean music, record companies blocking videos on YouTube for people outside of Japan/Korea is something that really bugs me. I know foreigners aren't their targeted audience, but actually giving your bands exposure so that foreigners will buy your stuff isn't THAT bad, is it?

 

I don't have the cash to buy every single release from all my favourite artists, but I try to chip in when I can. I also like having a physical copy in my hands, especially when they have fancy packaging.

[Ikna 1225]

Despite the fact that I download a lot japanese music (other music not as much, because it's easier to get for me, except it's a discontinued release from 20 years ago that has never been re-released) I don't know so much about the laws and legal aspects of it. But I know that the copyright laws are very different. In the US the entertaiment industry tries any possible way to turn people into criminals so they can charge a shit load of money for having downloaded copyrighted material. I find it extremely exaggerated that even the FBI can arrest you and put into jail for downloading.
But then I am living in Austria, where, as far as I know, downloading music per se isn't forbidden, unless you intend to use the files for commercial purposes or you are plagiarizing it (which I too consider as the real act of "stealing music").

 

If I remember correctly I read a lot of articles about the whole "if people don't buy records, the music scene will die" argument. It's an argument brought up by the media industry since the triumphal march of the cassette, which as we all know made copying and sharing music and videos very easy. I guess anyone who is old enough to remember the time when taping and recording music or radio programs was popular may be familiar with these nice warning signs:

 

 

We all know that the music industry is still alive and very well and they survived the taping craze. Of course the internet is kind of a bigger dimension, because files aren't just shared with your best friends and their friends, the file can be accessed by billions of people. Popular music will spread quite fast. But I still don't believe the music industries condition is as worse as they claim to be. From what I can gather of articles in the net record sales declined already in 1999, so long before the whole file sharing thing dramatically exploded (which I think didn't happen until p2p and filesharing services became standard). And since one year the sales seem to rise again and (the interesting thing) partially due to people downloading from online shops like itunes.

I guess it just can't be said objectively how many damage or not downloading makes as the whole issue is a double edged sword: really popular artists like Lady Gaga don't really suffer from declining record sales, because there are still enough people who buy the music or there are enough people willing to pay 100$ or more for a concert ticket. Some may be even following their artist and visit several concerts. If Lady Gaga and her Label gain 20 billion or just 10 billion $ doesn't make such a difference- of course only for us, not so much for the profit lusting music industry.
But then you have to admit that those good earning superstars are an exception. The majority of bands and musicians are not rich and they don't earn that much money. So it makes a huge difference if the can get say 150.000 or only 50.000 $. (Vk groups of course make much less). Those numbers are just imaginary. I am not so familiar with the earnings of musicians, but you get the idea.

The problem however is, that the smaller the band, not only the less will the earn, but the more will they suffer from the money the label takes from them. So in most cases just buying more releases alone won't help. And if it's true what I have read a lot of labels even charge their bands for the stuff and merchandising they sell on tours. That's actually stealing, but what can you do? (or what choices do the bands have)?

So ultimately... downloading can be damaging, but it mustn't, and sometimes it's better to at least buy concert tickets or support the band otherwise than doing nothing. I know that coming from me sounds foolish though XD

Regarding VK music: I agree with what most here said. Visual kei isn't really meant to be marketed for foreign fans. I'd say that this isn't even an "issue" concerning visual kei, basically anything from japan, except maybe video games and electronic devices, never surface outside the island, may be fashion, make up or any music (vk, as well as pop or rock music). I believe Japan doesn't really care for us mostly white weaboos as much as we do for their culture. Also notable is that japanese fans don't even want foreigners to drool over their Vk stuff. If you don't live in Japan and aren't able to go to the live yourself than that's your problem. Even if you ask nicely the japanese fans probably won't share the live distros with you. Of course that's also because they can't speak English so well, but I am sure they just don't give a fuck about us too.
Also I doubt japanese record sales are so heavily influenced by sharing the stuff. Yeah, some japanese people will download them as well, but some of the truly hardcore fans are still buying everything or they are still visiting the lives and buy lots of chekis, photosets and so on. (and Vk bands actually make more profit with those than with records)

Lastly... I have to thank the Vk filesharing community. The first Visual kei records I owned were bought myself, when Vk became "trendy" and cool here in europe and Gan-shin would distribute some artists here. But I didn't really get into the thing until I discovered the old school shit on blogs like Evil en Lucifer. There would have been no way at that time to find it otherwise, let alone buy it. I still don't have enough money to buy me everything i have on my wishlists and most of the stuff is hard to get. So blogs like these were really helpful. And I guess I will continue to share the old stuff I buy- in hope that people can get access of good rips instead of the 128 kps files floating around and because I think people need to check those groups out.
I am not so fond of new vk, but I guess the principle is similar. Many people just want to share so people who don't have the money to order the CDs can still get to hear the band. Japanese CDs are really expensive for us foreigners, especially if shipping options are stupid and you are unlucky and have to pay custom fees.

[platanity 99]

i think "upload & download"s do both gain and harm .

but as for the case of japanese music ,

i find it incredibly "intimidated (?)" somehow by the fact that i need

to go through the hassle of buying it off from some import website (cdjapan etc)

EVEN THO it is almost the same process for everything else from everywhere else .

dont know why, maybe it's something psychological that i need to buy it off with patience .

when i am in korea, it makes much more easier and faster process (they even have japanese cd shops in seoul),

but once im in uk ... its a whole lot different story (british idiotic parcel services, no racial pun intended)-

and japanese music cds ARE much more expensive than other territories' music (unless it's licensed import) .

besides , considering that japanese bands tend to release frequent singles and albums 

(need not mention that american bands dont release singles that often), it costs x1.5~x2.0

but i do buy physical materials for specific bands that im into ,no matter what the quality and quantity is -

loyalty -

 

but all in all, if it werent the downloads' , i wouldnt even be here talking about it in the first place ,

cause when i heard japanese rock before i got into it, i always thought they were clowns

and neo-barbie dolls with weird vibratos .

and besides, 'we' can never be stopped and will always somehow find a way to get (upload&download) it -

[seikun 317]

Anyway, I don't think most VK bands of these days should worry about illegal downloading. I just don't think they get all the attention older VK bands had when they were around.

 

I might be wrong, but I don't see the craze about VK bands anymore, not at least when it comes to "Neo Visual Kei". On the other hand, older Visual Kei bands are still appreciated by VK fans and events are still held based on those bands (parties, etc).

[Biopanda 2675]

In Japan, maybe. Most of those bands may have had like 1 international fan back when they were around XD It's really hard to have events about "neo visual kei" since those bands are still around? Technically every single event featuring those bands would be an event "about" them lol

[seikun 317]

I was not talking about concerts performed by VK bands. I was talking about all sorts of events organised by VK fans like parties, cover bands lives, etc. At least in my country fans tend to organise parties at home, universities, etc. There you can go and dance to Visual Kei bands. Actually there are also places like clubs/discos where you also can go and dance to Visual Kei bands. All these events are based on old school bands like Malice Mizer, Dir en grey, Kagerou, Noir fleurir, Metronome, MUCC, etc. Of course there are a few newer bands, but they are not what attracts most fans to these events.

[Biopanda 2675]

Oh... I've never even heard of those sorts of things XD I guess they just don't exist in the US.

[LIDL 692]

It is not as easy with Japanese releases where the price for shipping it often times can be twice the price of the CD/DVD itself.

Not to mention to pay extra for 3rd party for releases that are Live only and do not ship outside JP or for CD/DVD that you won on a auction.

Just purchase what you can.

It is not life and death imho.

Nothing to feel bad about if one did illegal download more than supporting their faves.

Just try to purchase it when you encounter it when you travel etc.