Illegal downloading should stop... or going on...?

[orangetarts 249]

I don't have the cash to buy every single release from all my favourite artists, but I try to chip in when I can. I also like having a physical copy in my hands, especially when they have fancy packaging.

 

This is how I am as well.

There are some bands that I'll find a way to get the money to buy their releases (i.e. CNBLUE) but i definitely like to download it to give it a listen and then if I really like I will buy it.

I'm also a sucker for really nice packaging, and korean bands have WAY better packaging than japanese. if im gonna spend between $35-$50 for an album, I want it to be fancy as fuck, not just some cheap ass jewel case with a pamphlet with the lyrics and maybe a few photos. It feels like a rip off!! I dont know, Maybe it's just me who feels that way.

 

I know when I first got into the vkei music scene (which was thru anime) I didnt have a job, i didnt have rich parents who just threw money at me, so my only option was really just downloading thins when I could find them, and now that i do have some money, I try and buy a few releases of bands I really loved/love.

Its all just the exposure to it is the problem, like a lot of people have said here, if we werent able to download the stuff, no one would really know anything about it and it would die out a lot quicker than it already does.

 

But, in the same respect, I totally agree with supporting the artists when you can. It is what it is, and nothing is really gonna change, but this is how I feel about it anyway.

[CAT5 9075]

I download hella shit. I buy hella shit. I share hella shit. The end.

[CELESTIAL CIEL 985]

If you like a band - you must buys their stuff (and you will buy! because you LIKE it and WANT it), but downloads to try are ok.

Prices are doesn't matter, really... And you don't need to buy evvvverything - guys who know this feel when you receive a new piece of your collection will understand. 

Musicians will not become poor because someone download the music because of people who still buy merch, so everything is ok with downloadings i think.  

[relentless 254]

Illegally downloading music has no impact on a band. Though the Japanese scene may be somewhat different (with VK being small scale), a band sees their profits at live shows and merchandise sales, not album sales. Though contracts may offer incentives for pushing an extra amount of units, bands are largely held on contract to produce a certain amount of material for X amount of money.

 

I can understand why people are hesitant to support illegal downloading; but with its impact practically non existent there's no reason not to (other than the legality of the situation). Personally, I save my money for bands that I find to be WORTH dishing the money out for. If I like an album, I will purchase it in the format I see fit (digital, CD, Vinyl); but if I don't like the album...why waste money on something I was never intending on buying in the first place? Just as with any investor, we want to make sure our money is going to the right place.

 

In the case of Japanese music especially, imported discs can run up to $90. That's over $75 more than what the CD SHOULD be going for. No wonder why people are going to "pirate" the music -- it's not economically feasible to be dropping near $100 on a CD. That's practically ROBBERY.

 

The worst part, is that it's the RECORD LABELS that are making record profits, not the bands. So why should I support a label when that money is not going to the band?

 

Case in point: Though not music, the Game of Thrones TV show has FLOURISHED because of piracy, and viewers have more impact on the show than sales of albums to a band.

 

I can understand why people are passionate to be AGAINST downloading music; but the reasoning is always wrong. People who take this stance have the enchanted belief that artists get ALL of the money for what they sell. That's a joke.

[seikun 317]

Until 2010 at least there was plenty of blogspot to download music by Visual Kei bands. Now I see most of those sites don't exist anymore or are inactive. That's why I think most new bands should not worry about illegal downloading.

[kurenaishineek 646]

The answer for me is simple , yes upload it if you dont mind , and if youre not scared of the consequences if you get caught . For me , uploaded albums are the only way to listen to asian music , cause of stupid media who try to only play the latest fukin crap out there and ban the good stuff and the stuff thats not in english language or not coming from EU and US . Not to mention ppl like me who are rather poor and have a hard time to get enough cash for living , so WE dont deserve to listen to music we like cause its not in some dumb TV ? Cause we are too poor to buy it , with todays CD's prices being so high ? I say bullshit , the labels steal money from us and they steal from the artists as well , cause they are being paid only a percent or so of the CD's price . Well its different when an artist releases it himself , but still it want change the fact that no matter how much you talk and talk bout it , the fact that ppl will download illegally wont change at all .

Also there is the fact mentioned by some ppl earlier of paying even more cause of import cd shops , and not to mention the ultra high prices of transport , just for example my friend bought the Tenra Bansho Zero books for 50$ and paid 60$ transport cost , thats fukin insane .

So my end statement ? Legal Music yes , but only for rich ppl . If the labels would truly want to fight illegal downloads they could do a lot just by lowering the prices , cause they dont need 50% profit on each CD .

[Guest mitsubana]

Until 2010 at least there was plenty of blogspot to download music by Visual Kei bands. Now I see most of those sites don't exist anymore or are inactive. That's why I think most new bands should not worry about illegal downloading.

 

Haha probably holds truth~ I'd say the fandom for visual kei (at least for us foreign fans) has decreased. I feel like when I first got into visual kei, there were so many people on the Internet and blogs and communities etc. It's died down a lot. 

 

So not as many people buying and sharing. Or, a lot of the people who purchase don't like to share. I don't know.

[seikun 317]

Haha probably holds truth~ I'd say the fandom for visual kei (at least for us foreign fans) has decreased. I feel like when I first got into visual kei, there were so many people on the Internet and blogs and communities etc. It's died down a lot. 

 

So not as many people buying and sharing. Or, a lot of the people who purchase don't like to share. I don't know.

This is my very personal opinion. I think that the bands that have been coming out since let's say... 2007/8 are not that interesting; the Neo Visual Kei thing and stuff. Bands are making very mainstream music and there isn't anything interesting there. That, in my opinion, has made the interest in Visual Kei decrease a lot.

 

But bands and musicians like Miyavi, MUCC, Gazette, Moi dix Mois, An Cafe, etc and old school Visual Kei bands, they should worry about illegal downloading because they have not lost fans. Most blogspots are mainly based on older bands rather than the new ones.

[Nyasagi 259]

I think releases are being shared quite fast compared to what was before, it's just the number of interesting bands that decreased, so people don't care about most of them.

[kurenaishineek 646]

Bands should worry bout illegal downloads? Is this a joke? Come on, how much are you into music. Most ppl know that 90% of bands income are live concerts and other performances and not the albums they release. And the piracy did not increase that much thanks to internet, it was high even without it. So saying that some aritst should worry bout illegal download is kinda like a bad joke told by someone who dosent know much. My friend has a band and he said hes not gonna record any CD's cause they get more cash from concerts, and they upload all theyre stuff free on their site and still get a shitload of cash.

[Zeus 7997]

Haha probably holds truth~ I'd say the fandom for visual kei (at least for us foreign fans) has decreased. I feel like when I first got into visual kei, there were so many people on the Internet and blogs and communities etc. It's died down a lot. 

 

So not as many people buying and sharing. Or, a lot of the people who purchase don't like to share. I don't know.

 

That's all hindsight. The music has and always will continue to come from only a few places. Everyone else on the internet reposts those new releases. All the "blogs" and "communities" that you saw shared a lot of the same fans, and were all redundant because there was nothing you could do on a blog or another forum that you couldn't already do (with more people) on MH, last.fm, Jpopsuki, Otonomai, etc.

2012 put an end to stuff like visual kei blogs, and communities centered around those blogs died. What put the nail in the coffin was the death of MegaUpload and the resulting backlash from other cyberlockers. This pretty much wiped out entire archives of VK. People with blogs that got hit hard decided to stop updating. New fans figured it would be a waste of time to start one up because now these sites are getting more aggressive with taking infringing links down. The age of VK blogs came to a pretty swift end by the end of 2012/beginning of 2013.

When you look at the DL section and see "less VK", that doesn't necessarily mean that VK fandom is decreasing. What you're actually seeing is more "not VK", because the entire landscape has changed so that redundant communities no longer exist and there are a few centralized hubs to go look for all things Japanese now. MH has had to grow to keep all types of the Japanese fandom alive - and it evolved of the will of the members here. Isn't that just awesome?

 

 

I think releases are being shared quite fast compared to what was before, it's just the number of interesting bands that decreased, so people don't care about most of them.

 

Which is why Nyasagi is right, even though the second part of that statement is opinion that I can't support as fact (even though I agree). There's a lot of stuff being shared. A lot of stuff. It may be music you aren't interested in but that doesn't mean that there aren't things being shared. Sharing here had to explode because as I said before, there aren't many other well-established places to do it. I can only think of one, actually, and they're about as lowkey as we are.

[seikun 317]

Certainly the end of Megaupload played its part in this, but I would say that most of today's Visual Kei bands are not that interesting when compared to older bands and that certainly has made people less interested in Visual Kei.

[Guest mitsubana]

Naw, that's another good point to bring up. I forgot about the crackdown on downloading and getting rid of certain sites, etc.

[Guest Magatsu]

also the people who go to jrock gigs are way lesser. and that's not because of megaupload but because lack of interest.

[stylelover 1086]

also the people who go to jrock gigs are way lesser. and that's not because of megaupload but because lack of interest.

 

i cant really agree with that. you can always see that tickets sell really good, as long as there are some good bands coming. Ace sold good, gazette had no problem in selling out, etc etc.

 

its not because of lack of interest, its because so many noname bands toured europe in the last 2-3 years. now some organizers like b7klan get that they need to bring a little bit more famous bands to get people to concerts. EAT YOU ALIVE will be a good tour too, im sure of it.

 

But bands like guild, adams , orochi (orochi in cologone had like 30 people attending), etc etc. its normal that only a few people go there . either the die hard fans or the minority that goes to every live just because its pretty japanese people.

[Guest Magatsu]

1500 people for Gazette is also way to less. and 1 gig is 100% not sold out, where 3500 people can be.

Also why is Deathgaze not good selling? also popular.

Also VAMPS is also not sold out yet.. and they are also popular.

 

Also when we don't go to lesser famous bands, bookers can't make money to bring bigger bands over.

 

Nega sold okay back then but it could be still way better.

 

and ADAMS sold okay for a NO name band. way more than Orochi.

 

and we had enough bigger names here and still less selling.

 

But let's see for next year, if a few plans go on. then let's see if people really going.

 

 

I still think that Visual Kei is not that popular anymore.

[Zeus 7997]

1500 people for Gazette is also way to less. and 1 gig is 100% not sold out, where 3500 people can be.

Also why is Deathgaze not good selling? also popular.

Also VAMPS is also not sold out yet.. and they are also popular.

 

Also when we don't go to lesser famous bands, bookers can't make money to bring bigger bands over.

 

Nega sold okay back then but it could be still way better.

 

and ADAMS sold okay for a NO name band. way more than Orochi.

 

and we had enough bigger names here and still less selling.

 

But let's see for next year, if a few plans go on. then let's see if people really going.

 

 

I still think that Visual Kei is not that popular anymore.

Your use of popular is inconsistent.

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

The US seems to only get VKei bands at conventions now, I guess to ensure that people will go see them if they've never heard of them. I guess it's a double edged sword:

 

You get people to see and experience your shows if they're at the convention when they might not have even heard of you playing otherwise : You are now more heavily associated with animu / otaku culture and are further ingrained in people's minds as "this is just for weeabo fggts"

 

Unless you're Dir en Grey. They've been good at touring with popular bands and haven't been playing at events here associated with conventions (i.e. Korn's tour in 2006~2007). As far as I know, the same thing is happening with their current tour in the US.

[relentless 254]

A lot of us on this site have a skewed idea as to how popular Visual Kei really is (in Japan and abroad). In Japan you rarely see a VK band sell out venues that have more than 2000 capacity. And just because they're "popular" in Japan (which most AREN'T), doesn't mean they're guaranteed to be popular elsewhere. No marketing is done abroad to get their name out. At least X Japan did it right when they toured the US briefly: They got their name out there at festivals NOT associated with Anime, and they were pretty much labeled as the original Hair metal / speed metal Japanese band.

 

The problem is that the fanbase is LARGELY over stated by these lesser management groups that try to bring Japanese bands over here. They don't do anything to promote these tours -- they just assume word of mouth is going to be enough. I'm sorry; but word of mouth amongst 20 people in a single city is not going to help your tour.

 

Before they come to the States or Europe, the groups that set these tours up need to realize what they have to do to make it successful. Famously the guy who ran Batsu did tour management...and look how that turned out -- though that's a different issue entirely.

 

@ Peace Heavy: Yeah, Dir en grey has done A LOT of image management by attaching themselves to tours with top metal acts; but that's mostly because of who they know and who they got to know on tour.

[Guest Magatsu]

@Zess then tell me what's popular.

People always keep saying, all those bands are wrong.

But nobody does a FUCK to tell the bookers to bring the bands who are REALLY wanted.

It's not telling them 1 time, no we have to tell them over and over and over and over again.

 

So I would say, come on and list up bands you wanna see, and then check the label. then you know if they are expensive or not expensive. think logic.

 

and then I will eat popcorn and see if people would really go if the so "wanted" bands will come here.

 

As so long visual kei fans don't stand up. then visual kei concerts will die.

Because everyone only keep saying "the bookers bring the wrong bands".

 

 

even with this topic: http://www.monochrome-heaven.com/topic/19039-which-band-should-come-to-europe/

I still have no clue what people really want.

[Zeus 7997]

You misunderstood my sentence.

You used popular at first to mean a metric of how many people listen to them and like them online. You then used popular as a metric to gauge how many people would show up to a concert. This is completely inconsistent.

For example, Monochrome Heaven only has 7000 users. 7000 users from across the globe. For any given venue in Europe, you can chop that number in about half because most of us can't just go to a random concert anywhere (and that chopping is modest, if anything). On top of that, the demographic for visual kei is largely comprised of people that don't have the money or the freedom to go to a concert whenever they feel like it. So yes, the 21 year old may be able to get away with going to a concert in a different town on a Wednesday night, but the 16 year old teenager is going nowhere. So that cuts down the potential number of people that want to go to a concert even further. Now factor in scheduling conflicts, money issues, the venue being just a bit too far, travelling, housing, and people that like visual kei but don't like that specific band who is performing and you're curious as to why visual bands don't get a lot of people coming to their concerts?

The fact that an indie band from Japan decides to even take the time to fly halfway across the fucking world to play two or three concerts should tell you visual kei is getting more popular. This wasn't happening fifteen years ago. This wasn't even happening ten years ago. This was barely happening five years ago. Plenty of popular mainstream Japanese pop acts with millions of fans don't leave Japan and tour on the regular.  Plenty of popular mainstream American acts hardly do a world tour as it is. And if I'm wrong here, someone please tell me the next time Shiina Ringo is in my neighborhood so I can swoon her with my undeniable charm and suave moves.

 

So therefore you can't directly equate online popularity with how many people can show up to a concert in some random country on some random date. As a matter of fact, you should be pretty fucking ecstatic that visual kei bands even step foot in your country. Versailles walked right by my entire continent every single time they went on a "world tour" and the closest I get to visual kei is Dir en grey cosplaying 28 Weeks Later. And I'm still happy they show up every year or two.
 

But what about indie bands? Yeah ALSDEAD came to America once or twice. Are you travelling 1000 miles each way to go watch a band you don't really care about perform? Because I sure as hell wasn't and they were still in my country. What makes you think I'd get on a plane and go the other way for a band I still do like? Not much.

 

And we're not even getting into how much money it costs to make it all work. Gigging is expensive and not every no-name band with five online fans can make the trip to perform abroad. I'll be surprised if any visual bands makes any type of money back from a European tour. So maybe band X isn't coming abroad because they simply can't afford it?

 

You throw around pronouns and talk about nebulous evil corporations and terrible fans as if there's a simple reason why things don't pan out the way you want them to, but you fail to realize the thing people keep telling you over and over, which I will quote again for you:
 

 

A lot of us on this site have a skewed idea as to how popular Visual Kei really is (in Japan and abroad). In Japan you rarely see a VK band sell out venues that have more than 2000 capacity. And just because they're "popular" in Japan (which most AREN'T), doesn't mean they're guaranteed to be popular elsewhere. No marketing is done abroad to get their name out. At least X Japan did it right when they toured the US briefly: They got their name out there at festivals NOT associated with Anime, and they were pretty much labeled as the original Hair metal / speed metal Japanese band.

 

The problem is that the fanbase is LARGELY over stated by these lesser management groups that try to bring Japanese bands over here. They don't do anything to promote these tours -- they just assume word of mouth is going to be enough. I'm sorry; but word of mouth amongst 20 people in a single city is not going to help your tour.

 

Before they come to the States or Europe, the groups that set these tours up need to realize what they have to do to make it successful. Famously the guy who ran Batsu did tour management...and look how that turned out -- though that's a different issue entirely.

 

@ Peace Heavy: Yeah, Dir en grey has done A LOT of image management by attaching themselves to tours with top metal acts; but that's mostly because of who they know and who they got to know on tour.

[Gaz 1097]

ryu stahp pls

[Guest Magatsu]

@Zess, no you understand me also wrong. because I know that what you say (>_<)

So forget it, I guess I cannot explain myself good enough. and I also talk for Europe, no America.

 

 

@GAZ no you shut up.

 

 

 

But it's not the topic actually.

 

but after all because of illigal downloading we made it possible that bands from Japan could tour.

[Pandabear 414]

Yeah, I don't really think there's a yes or no answer to the original question.

 

I'm of the opinion that downloads, albeit even when illegal, do more good than harm. That being said I also think there's this misconception with people that buying albums doesn't help the band and only helps these "evil" record companies lol. 

 

Yeah, on occasion you have you're greedy corporate labels that will try and milk a band's music to death and try to pocket a large amount of their profits, but that's not really a common occurrence. If  a band does sign with a label like that, than that's there fault for not going over their contract and feeling out the label beforehand. If anything, shady promoters who don't honor bands the guarantees they were promised for playing gigs is far more common and problematic than the evil record label thing. Being on label is a business and part of that is a band being loaned money to record an album, make music videos and promote themselves. In return, the label gets a share of the album sales. That's not being evil. It's called business. And let's not forget DIY bands who front their own personal money to make an album and get direct profit from every album they sell.

 

And even though I believe illegal downloads don't hurt bands, the belief that buying albums doesn't help the band is wrong. The band still makes profit from cd sales even if it is minuscule, but more importantly it helps them establish their name in the music scene. The most important time for this is when an album debuts. The higher it charts, the more the band can benefit from it. Not only does it get there name out there, but it establishes to the industry that their music in demand and thus the band will get more backing for bigger tours, more opportunity for tours, get in with bigger names, get endorsement offers, and help them make more profit in other various avenues. All that from buying a CD.

 

I don't know if that's the way the Japanese music industry works, but that's how the western music industry functions.

 

Personally, I don't really buy that many Japanese physical releases. It does get way too expensive. I usually buy 3-4 Japanese albums a year and that's about it. I reserve my money for only the bands I enjoy and I know won't let me down. On occasion I do buy digitally or buy a Japanese album after downloading.

 

I do buy a lot of western stuff though. Usually about 2 - 4 albums per month. Sometimes more. Part of that is because how cheap albums have become. I remember when they use to be like $15. Then they went down to $14-13, then $11 -10. Now most I see debut at $8.