WhirlingBlack

It was a short set but Hizumi sounded pretty well, probably better than he did last time I saw them in 2009. I think the short setlist was just trying to play it safe for the moment being, but as far as I understand it they're not ruling out further performances completely.
 
Hizumi also participated in the encore of Angelo singing one of their songs together with Hazuki from lynch. and the vocalist of RIZE.

Okay, I'm going to be that lame guy who does track by track reviews because why the hell not hehehehehe
 
elisabeth addict - I still sort of think the track name is dumb, but the actual song itself.. Man, it's been a long time since an album opener blew me away like this. Though for the most part this is a rather calm song, there's never really any point where it strays into boring territory. The reason for this is just the absolute atmospheric quality. Really, this song sets the tone for the rest of the album. The world of IMMORTALIS is eerie, at times desolate and chaotic, but there's a certain harmony underneath all the layers of darkness. elisabeth addict embodies all these different facets. Kyo is in prime form here, alternating between regular singing, screeching and his infamous kyopera skills as the song comes to an end. The instruments complement nicely and the acoustic guitar and the drums create the feeling of wandering alone through a sandstorm. 
 
destrudo - The second track is an SE, I guess? It's an instrumental track, at least. The piano melodies are quite beautiful and melancholic. Even though it's an instrumental track it doesn't fall into the traditional SE pitfall of becoming monotonous. Still, I feel the song DOES overstay its welcome a bit even though it's just over two minutes. Probably one of my least favorite tracks on the album, but then again it's not really much of a song to begin with. I'll probably be skipping this one in the future. At least it fits within the overall atmosphere of the album, I guess.
 
latour - I'd like to imagine this is what a track off Uroboros would sound like if Dir en grey had decided to ditch the metal elements and instead embraced more of a nagoya kei sound. There's a decidedly 9goats-esque quality to the instrumental portion of this one. Latour still has the eerie atmosphere established by the opening track. However, this song alsoo introduces some very oriental-sounding grooves to the mixture and it fits quite well. The song evolves very organically, starting with an elaborate instrumental opening which takes up about the first third of the song. Once again, Kyo's vocals are very on point here and he contributes a lot to the increasingly maniacal fury the song builds towards.
 
nine melted fiction - Again a song with a title that made me go 'the fuck?' What ALSO made me go 'the fuck?' was that weird wolf howl-type thing Kyo pulls early on in the song. Seriously, what's up with that? It sort of took me out of the atmosphere of the album because it sounded so goofy, so it's a bit unfortunate. This song grooves along in a manner reminiscent of Dir's Toguro, until the part from the album preview finally appears and kicks the tempo up a bit. Kyo pulls some more weird vocal tricks throughout the song, but outside of that wolf sound I felt most of them added to the song's atmosphere instead of taking away from it.
 
zephyr - Well, the radio rip of this song was one of the reasons why I became so incredibly hyped for this album in the first place. Even with the low quality of the radio rip I already fell in love with this one, especially the vocal melody in the chorus. As other people already pointed out before, it's definitely one of the strongest vocal performances we've seen from Kyo in years. Although this song sort of breaks up the eerie, brooding mood of the album the previous tracks had established, it's far from out of place. I feel like this is nothing Dir en grey could ever have done, and yet it is so reminiscent of Dir en grey at their best. This is the first time outside of destrudo that I've managed to detect electronic effects in the music, but it doesn't overtake the rest of the instruments so it doesn't disturb. Still one of my favorite tracks on the album so far, although I already feel like it might eventually lose that position. 
 
hidden one - I don't know if it's because of the kyopera in this particular song or 'cuz of something else, but this song just doesn't really connect with me for some reason. The instrumentals are top notch once again, don't get me wrong. I guess it's something about the vocals that ticks me off. Who knows, maybe ii'll grow on me at some point.
 
aftermath - Another slow-burning song driven more by atmosphere than anything else. This was one of the first songs they released, but I only really listened to it once or twice before to be honest. Although there's quite a fair share of kyopera in this one as well (especially in the chorus) this song somehow doesn't rub me the wrong way. Quite a good ballad, although I can understand how it could be boring for some people. This is, once again, a very nagoya kei-ish song I think. 
 
烏有の空 - 2spooky4me. I guess I'd label this an SE as well. Very brooding and menacing, this one is. Out of the two SE-like tracks on the album, this has to be my favorite just because it's so menacing. The track brings to mind those Forbidden Siren survival horror games. I feel like the song is sort of misplaced within the context of the whole album though, as the way it transitions into the next song feels kind of awkward in my opinion. 
 
the daemon's cutlery - This is another song I don't care very much for. I THINK this was the very first thing sukekiyo ever released, but I already felt sort of indifferent to it back then. It's another song that feels like a less metal version of Uroboros. This is probably one of the most straightforwardly rocking tracks on the album, but it's still pretty weird. The song sort of managed to grasp my interest in its second half, when the chant-ish sounds and everything kick in, but the beginning as of yet does nothing for me. Maybe I'll come to appreciate the whole package eventually, who knows. 
 
scars like velvet - Now THAT's more like it! Straight from the start this track managed to capture my attention. Here the album returns to the sort of mid-tempo atmospheric nagoya-esque sound. This track has a very oriental sound again, which pleases me. I wish Dir en grey would explore that side of themselves further as well, it offers interesting possibilities. I can sort of imagine this song is perhaps a bit too heavy on the kyopera for some to handle, but I think it fits this particular type of song. Didn't disturb me, at least. I LOVE the way this song progresses and there's a neat little instrumental section near the end of the song as well.
 
mama - So APPARENTLY this is an old song of Kyo's that came with one of his poem books? I guess I'm a shit-tier fan, because I never heard the original. Still though, I have to say this song is absolutely gorgeous. It brings to mind Dir en grey's greatest ballads. Probably the most 'hopeful' out of all the songs on the album, at least in terms of sound. I don't know shit about the lyrics after all. Based on the preview I wasn't very intrigued by this song, but the full version actually pleasantly surprised me.
 
vandal - When I first heard the preview, I was instantly reminded of 9Goats' Headache and 690min. I guess that's okay, as I enjoy both of those songs. At several points in the song Kyo's vocals become almost reminiscent of his Kisou/Vulgar-era harsh vocals. Never expected to see THOSE featuring prominently in a song again. Despite the initial similarities to the aforementioned songs, this track is far from a simple ripoff. At some point the song changes gears COMPLETELY and segues into a creepy slower part before picking up the rocking pace again. Though the change is sort of abrupt, I felt like it didn't hurt the song. The weird chanting at the end was also quite charming.
 
hemimetabolism - I DID NOT EXPECT THIS ONE TO SOUND LIKE THIS AT ALL. Especially the first half. The song starts off with some mellow, melancholic instrumental action before shifting gears and unraveling into more spooky insanity at around the 2 minute mark. The vocals don't kick in until the last minute of the song. Very interesting composition, definitely one of the most surprising tracks on the album. 
 
鵠 - Another ballad-type song. Hella kyopera once again, so be warned. I found this song to be very calming, very spiritual. I've never really listened to them very much at all, but this is what I imagine Rentrer En Soi might've vaguely sounded like in my head. It's a good song, but because it's a rather straightforward song stuck between two rather unique ones I feel like this song might end up becoming 'forgotten', the type of song where you go "Ah, right. This still exists." when listening to the full album.
 
 斑人間 - Yeah, so I didn't expect this track to sound ANYTHING like this based on the preview. Again. Pleasantly surprised, although I feel like this track could've been a Dum Spiro Spero / The Unraveling b-side or something. Very dynamic, very diverse. I was most curious to hear the full version of this one based on the previews but I never imagined it to be like this. Still, the part from the preview is absolutely beautiful although I question how well it actually fits in the whole picture.
 
in all weathers - I was already all 'Ayyyyy' after hearing the radio rip. Full version is still amazing. Beautiful melodies, harmonies, everything. Also liked the callback to elisabeth addict at the end, really helps bring the album full circle. 
 
So yeah, this is my AOTY so far. I don't know how good or bad this review was, I usually don't write reviews. But.. yeah. These were my thoughts after listening to the album twice. 
 
4.5 / 5 
 
 
 

Repurposing the forum wasn't really the point of this though, I think most of us applicants generally agree on that the nature and general direction of MH as a Japanese Rock Forum is a good and solid one. What needs to be done is trimming, fixing and perfecting the forum for that purpose, which large parts of the current administration have not attempted to do.
 
 
EDITED: fixed parts that might've seemed a bit generalizing.

more important thing is reorganisation in the moderation team and make forum more active than it is now. we don't need a lot of changes right now, imo. let's wait for the mods' decision about the main problem and not push on them with all things at once.

Repurposing the forum wasn't really the point of this though, I think most of us applicants generally agree on that the nature and general direction of MH as a Japanese Rock Forum is a good and solid one. What needs to be done is trimming, fixing and perfecting the forum for that purpose, which large parts of the current administration have not attempted to do.
 
 
EDITED: fixed parts that might've seemed a bit generalizing.

I'm pretty much a lurker nowadays, so I'm really not one to speak haha, but I still agree with this topic.
 
If you're a staff member and you're thinking this topic could be hinting at you being one of the inactive mods/admins, please consider how much you still have to offer for this forum. Feelings of nostalgia or responsibility are not enough reason to keep being a staff member.

Sai and champ brings up legitimate things, It's really important that one understands that being a moderator isn't just some kind of "status boost" and more of a job that needs doing. People need to be able to not consider personal relationships with the people involved, be able to put down lots of their time into the site and try their best to keep it vital, healthy, and constantly improving.
 
With that said, I'd like to announce my candidacy for the team, as I feel like I can do all of these things and have a lot to bring to the management of this site. If anyone on the admin or moderating team would like to discuss the application with me, feel free to PM.

I agree with Dispos previous post, the staff is only as good as its weakest link - As long as there's some who do nothing or next to nothing it will reflect poorly upon the whole institution, and the hard working ones might grow discontent if they keep trying and their opinions either get shot down because its "too much work", or simply are never even considered because people aren't around, not to mention feeling like the entire workload is unjustly put onto them.  I know that both previous and current staff members have expressed this frustration to me, and it shows that it really is a serious issue to address.

I agree with Dispos previous post, the staff is only as good as its weakest link - As long as there's some who do nothing or next to nothing it will reflect poorly upon the whole institution, and the hard working ones might grow discontent if they keep trying and their opinions either get shot down because its "too much work", or simply are never even considered because people aren't around, not to mention feeling like the entire workload is unjustly put onto them.  I know that both previous and current staff members have expressed this frustration to me, and it shows that it really is a serious issue to address.

Indeed the trial run is a must, but it should also apply to all existing staff members as well ( I would go as far as to say that they've run their trial course a long, long time ago ). Your numbers are more than enough, so what needs to happen is getting rid of fat and replacing that with those who seem more apt for the job. It won't do that this whole thing culminates into another green mods disaster, where the existing staff members, whom seem out of the loop from the daily happenings of this very music scene and this community, seemingly try to off the workload to a bunch of former regulars who soon grow tired of the whole thing. I honestly think that if there's even one rotten apple of slacking and apathy in the barrel, the infection spreads. For example, presumably two of the staff have not seen this topic yet despite it being up for almost 24 hours, and one of the them hasn't even logged in since 4.10 for christ sake. I know I'm probably just saying what has been said between the lines before, but I wan't to make this 100% clear with no misunderstandings.
 
With that said, I'm also up for candidacy ( which is not the reason I made this topic I assure you ) while vouching for Stylelover and Whirlingblack, and all of us hang out here practically 24/7.

I agree with this topic, I've at lengths discussed the problems I've seen and experienced as a user of this site with several other regulars. From the POV of a user, it seems that a few members of the staff, namely Zess, CAT and sai, seems to carry up the large majority of the duties associated with being a moderator/admin, while the contributions of the rest can be seen as sporadic at best. 
 
It seems like some members of the staff stay purely on past merits, good graces, nepotism, etc. and I think this is an issue that must be taken into consideration; If you don't have the proper time to invest in working on the site, should you really hold a position of power? If someone is consistantly so busy with real life that they can't put down a couple of hours a week at least (in my opinion a couple of hours per day would be preferable), they should be asking themselves what they really bring to the site. The administration should make a regular review of the moderators performance and if they don't make the cut, they should be relieved of duty immidately. Inefficient members of the administration should also consider giving up their positions to people more suitable for the task.
 
This place needs a shake up, and I'm not convinced that the current staff line up is up to the task. If the whole team showed the same dedication that the previously mentioned people do most of the time, then this place would most likely be heading towards major improvement, not just in activity and administration, but also in terms of order.
 
Finally, perhaps a bit controversial as its just a theory, but, I've heard several good suggestions come from certain mods and admins I've talked to, but fact seems that the majority is too busy clinging to status quo out of sheer laziness that none or very few have been implemented successfully. 

i guess stuff like how to change the forum would rather belong into the thread magatsu  created, but im just going to include it to this post , as it somehow belongs to modteam changes too (you need to have some ideas too after all.)
 
many regulars (at least chat regulars) talked about this situation for a while. its a fact that the forum is less populated than it was before , so we wondered why and talked about the whole situation a lot in the chat recently. but stuff like that belongs in the open or nothing gets changed at all. i also hope that people might join this discussion.
 
General thoughts about responsibilites and the modteam:
 
Like dispo said, the most important thing about a modteam that they are 1) active active active and 2) actually interested in the stuff the forum offers and 3) actually interested to be part of the community.
Sadly i dont see any of these things in the current modteam. there are exceptions of course , but im not going to say any positive or negative examples as that wouldnt be fair to anyone of the current mod team.
 
To get a little bit more detailed.
 
1) Lately i refer to mh as a lawfree place. you rarely see any mods and wrong topics or stuff like that sometimes stay on the site for a few days or they just dont get discovered at all. So thats where the first point comes in: a mod/admin team should actually be active and not just hope for the best and be kinda idle all the time. again as dispo said i dont know whats going on behind the doors, but i was a mod myself in the past( im going to say a bit about that too later on) and theres not so much stuff "backstage" to actually justify the common abscene of mods on here.its not the users job to report any single wrong thing in the forum. of
course its nice to report something if you see it, but in a ideal situation the mods themselve would see stuff and correct it .
 
2) that leads me to my second point: you need to be interested in the stuff thats posted here to actually be able to properly do you rmodwork. not being interested in most of the news and downloads posted here AND being lazy or away is the worst combination possible. again: in a ideal situation or rather in a must be situation the mods actually need to be interested in visual kei /jrock /the news / kpop / whatever to be able to mod properly.  its ok if one moves away from vk or anything offered here, but then you are just not fit to be a mod on a forum about that stuff anymore. imo a mods job is not just moving topics/locking threads. its also to be highly dedicated and interested in what the site is about, to take part in discussions and be a part of the community. and thats what my third point is about. one shouldnt be a mod just to ensure "law", one should be a mod because he/she LOVES to be on this site and LOVES the stuff the site is about. its just sad and cant be justified if a mod has like 5 posts in two months.
 
and to actually reach that goal the mod team (and/or possible new mods) needs to be reviewed. that leads me to a bit of my own mod story and why i left the "team". it wasnt a team at all in the past.
when i joined the mod team back in tainted world days it was actually more or less a team. everyone was fairly active and you could b e sure that if you wouldnt be able to look into the forum for lets say two days, someone else would be there for sure. that changed someday. sooner or later i found myself doing most of the stuff myself as some of the staff was just suddenly away and others lacked interest in the forum. that quickly lead to my removal of the team, because i just dont want to look over everything all the time , even though i really love this forum(im part of it for 6 years or so now). but a team is a team and not one single person and the others can lay back and hope that no one registers on the site.
meaning: a mod team should consist of people that actually care about the forum and want to increase the community AND actually being interested in the stuff thats most common in here. ideally a team should be mixed with people that like different things (vk, jrock, jpop, kpop, other stuff) .
 
of course things can stay like they are now, but the forum is slowly dying and it will die out sooner or later. im going to talk more about that in the second section, but atm theres no real reason to join mh. i chat with people yes, but i can just add them all to skype and it would be the same.
and thats the point: a mod team should be a good role model and actually be interested to be a part of the community.
 
now theres maybe the question who should be a mod: thats something that should be discussed later on , IF this might actually change something. i for myself would be willing to join, BUT it depends on how much the team changes and if i can actually say "yes this is a team of people who are active", because no one can change something alone.
 
 
changes for the forum, current situation, what to do?
 
first im just going to repeat something i said on the chat some days ago about the current situation: monochrome heaven as it is right now is just another blogspot site. sounds kinda stupid? maybe but if you take a closer look its not exactly far fetched. currently the only really active stuff on the site are 1) the chat 2) dl section 3) news section. lets see what a random vk blogspot offers me: news and downloads on one site and most of the time a chatbox on the sidebar. sounds exactly the same.
 
so that relates to the activity of the forum: if you visit this forum for the first time (maybe even coming from a blogspot because you saw that many downloads come from here) you actualyl see that its not different at all, so why contribute to the forum at all? seems kinda useless.
 
and thats the one most important thing right now: ACTVITY. especially in other existing categories or in new forums. because if things stay like that than monochrome heaven is just another blogspot. nothing else.
 
so what could be changed about that? for me its out of the question that we need to look into things beyond visual kei /j-rock. imo it wouldnt hurt to be a little bit more open to other asian stuff as k-pop/rock and maybe even other stuff like dramas. we had a bigger music section a while ago and imo it worked quite well (own forums for western and korean music for example) i think it was all migrated into the general music section in an attempt to make the forum slimmer. imo that kinda failed, as the general music section is a huge mess right now and if you are interested in korean music for example its kinda impossible to see whats in the section.
 
its not going to hurt anyone if we try to get people from other genres over here. its not like the vk section is going to decrease just because we have a kpop section and not just a general music section.
ideally people might even check other sections if they are active, but one can also just stay away from it. not like anyone forces you to be part of every single section here.
 
alright thats it from my side. if i can think of anything else to change the forum im going to add it
 
 

I agree with this topic, I've at lengths discussed the problems I've seen and experienced as a user of this site with several other regulars. From the POV of a user, it seems that a few members of the staff, namely Zess, CAT and sai, seems to carry up the large majority of the duties associated with being a moderator/admin, while the contributions of the rest can be seen as sporadic at best. 
 
It seems like some members of the staff stay purely on past merits, good graces, nepotism, etc. and I think this is an issue that must be taken into consideration; If you don't have the proper time to invest in working on the site, should you really hold a position of power? If someone is consistantly so busy with real life that they can't put down a couple of hours a week at least (in my opinion a couple of hours per day would be preferable), they should be asking themselves what they really bring to the site. The administration should make a regular review of the moderators performance and if they don't make the cut, they should be relieved of duty immidately. Inefficient members of the administration should also consider giving up their positions to people more suitable for the task.
 
This place needs a shake up, and I'm not convinced that the current staff line up is up to the task. If the whole team showed the same dedication that the previously mentioned people do most of the time, then this place would most likely be heading towards major improvement, not just in activity and administration, but also in terms of order.
 
Finally, perhaps a bit controversial as its just a theory, but, I've heard several good suggestions come from certain mods and admins I've talked to, but fact seems that the majority is too busy clinging to status quo out of sheer laziness that none or very few have been implemented successfully. 

I agree with this topic, I've at lengths discussed the problems I've seen and experienced as a user of this site with several other regulars. From the POV of a user, it seems that a few members of the staff, namely Zess, CAT and sai, seems to carry up the large majority of the duties associated with being a moderator/admin, while the contributions of the rest can be seen as sporadic at best. 
 
It seems like some members of the staff stay purely on past merits, good graces, nepotism, etc. and I think this is an issue that must be taken into consideration; If you don't have the proper time to invest in working on the site, should you really hold a position of power? If someone is consistantly so busy with real life that they can't put down a couple of hours a week at least (in my opinion a couple of hours per day would be preferable), they should be asking themselves what they really bring to the site. The administration should make a regular review of the moderators performance and if they don't make the cut, they should be relieved of duty immidately. Inefficient members of the administration should also consider giving up their positions to people more suitable for the task.
 
This place needs a shake up, and I'm not convinced that the current staff line up is up to the task. If the whole team showed the same dedication that the previously mentioned people do most of the time, then this place would most likely be heading towards major improvement, not just in activity and administration, but also in terms of order.
 
Finally, perhaps a bit controversial as its just a theory, but, I've heard several good suggestions come from certain mods and admins I've talked to, but fact seems that the majority is too busy clinging to status quo out of sheer laziness that none or very few have been implemented successfully. 

While it sounds a bit silly, I believe that arbitrary colors and titles help to take some people one step further when it comes to activity. So if someone doesn't seem like the world's best user at the moment, it doesn't mean that they wouldn't change after being granted modship. Obviously a new sexy staff wouldn't be found over night, but that's what discussion is for.

I agree with this topic, I've at lengths discussed the problems I've seen and experienced as a user of this site with several other regulars. From the POV of a user, it seems that a few members of the staff, namely Zess, CAT and sai, seems to carry up the large majority of the duties associated with being a moderator/admin, while the contributions of the rest can be seen as sporadic at best. 
 
It seems like some members of the staff stay purely on past merits, good graces, nepotism, etc. and I think this is an issue that must be taken into consideration; If you don't have the proper time to invest in working on the site, should you really hold a position of power? If someone is consistantly so busy with real life that they can't put down a couple of hours a week at least (in my opinion a couple of hours per day would be preferable), they should be asking themselves what they really bring to the site. The administration should make a regular review of the moderators performance and if they don't make the cut, they should be relieved of duty immidately. Inefficient members of the administration should also consider giving up their positions to people more suitable for the task.
 
This place needs a shake up, and I'm not convinced that the current staff line up is up to the task. If the whole team showed the same dedication that the previously mentioned people do most of the time, then this place would most likely be heading towards major improvement, not just in activity and administration, but also in terms of order.
 
Finally, perhaps a bit controversial as its just a theory, but, I've heard several good suggestions come from certain mods and admins I've talked to, but fact seems that the majority is too busy clinging to status quo out of sheer laziness that none or very few have been implemented successfully. 

Lately me and various other regulars ( whom I hope voice their support for immediate action and add to the discussion ) have been thinking that there's a problem, and that is the severe lack of participation in forum activities in part of some of the staff members. It's pretty much widely acknowledged all around that especially a bulk of the blue ( and the late green, whom were subsequently and justly culled ) mods are notoriously inactive when it comes to interacting with much of the community.
 
It's true that I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes and what are the contributions of each one there, but I do believe that actual "moderating" is far from being the only job of a staff member. A member of the staff should have a proactive approach to the forums; interacting with the members, making topics and creating discussions as often as possible and not just once or twice a month when the mood is right. The benefits of this approach for example have been seen in the review and general sections. If Zess and CAT5 wouldn't have made all the topics and discussions there that they have I bet nobody would have and the general section would still be pretty much dead. 
 
I think the forum would benefit a lot from updating the staff roster with users who are in the loop of the current goings in the Japanese music scene, and imporantly the said users should be known by the people and the people should know them. I bet many newcomers who registered in the late 2012, early 2013 have no clue who these people are and I can't really blame them, seeing as some of the staff rarely post anything that classifies as a contribution. 
 
And I'm not trying to come off as hostile, but I really think this forum has seen a surge of activity as of late ( some people would very much disagree with me though ) and I think that we should capitalize on that with a new, active and participating staff. There should be as little inactivity as possible and most definately zero people that clearly stick around just because they're friends. A mod status should be for those who are absolutely dedicated and if the time comes when they cannot live up to their duties, they should resign without a second thought. 
 
edit: I urge everyone to say either yay or nay below. There needs to be some discussion about this because this is what people complain about all the time. 
 
Everyone, and I mean everyone has complained about the forum being dead at one point. I honestly think that a staff that is right there in the middle of everything is the best way to engage this problem. While I also realise that you might be hesitant to do a revamp after the failure of the green mods, culling the one or two that are certainly solely dead weight right now and replacing them with new ones wouldn't hurt.  
 
edit2: To address another concern that was voiced: The user and mod apathy. 
 
It may be a convenient excuse for staff members and users alike to free themselves of the burden of contributing just because "What does it matter when nobody else won't do anything either". That's reasonable, why would anyone post when nobody else does? 
 
I feel this concern can be directly addressed with a proactive, enthusiastic and most importantly of all, in the loop staff. What makes or breaks any content creator and site on the web is quality and consistency. The amount of good coming from a staff that brings life to where there isn't should be obvious for anyone. One or two mods can't do that alone, it needs to be the whole team. 
 
These changes need to be done swiftly and throughout with zero compromise or months long discussions between the administration.  I think it's necessary that the amount of new blood is large is enough to reinvigorate the staff and forum.

Is there a way to lower the donation limit? I think a lot more people would be willing to contribute if the minimum donation weren't 10 dollars.

"There is objectively bad music (in a sense)" - I believe this to be a fairly controversial point to make, but only because people tend to miss the point I'm making, that there are factors that could label music as objectively bad from a composition point of view - it might be that they only rehash a certain chord progression to death, that they copy other bands in a manner that's so blatant and obvious that it makes it impossible to enjoy the music, simply put, the music they make doesn't bring anything even remotely fresh or innovative to the table. I believe that several of bands I consider to be good has some or several of these qualities though, so it doesn't neccessarily make them a bad band in someones opinion, just like I know of several bands with highly innovative and interesting styles that I personally find uninteresting because the music doesn't grab me, there's factors like personal preference in vocals etc. that can't be taken into account since there's no accurate way of measuring such things. Feel free to disagree with me if you want.

Strongly agree with this post, there's a reason the earliest releases for some bands tend to be the best, or at least, the most interesting. Besides the obvious - having all the time in the world to write the music and refine it as opposed to having the pressure on to produce something worthwhile in a set amount of months - there's also the aspect of what appeals to the general public, and pressure to conform to it. With the first releases, bands are often going into the creative process without anything to relate to, and thus can create music solely for their own ideals sake, rather than feeling the pressure of a large/growing fanbase to make something that will appeal to the core fans, and still dillute the message enough to draw in more people. 
 
As stated, MUCC is a perfect example of this saddening phenomena, on the other hand, there's bands like Dir en grey who just keep getting more interesting and more experimental, so its certainly not a rule but rather a pattern that is noticeable in a lot of bands.

Strongly agree with this post, there's a reason the earliest releases for some bands tend to be the best, or at least, the most interesting. Besides the obvious - having all the time in the world to write the music and refine it as opposed to having the pressure on to produce something worthwhile in a set amount of months - there's also the aspect of what appeals to the general public, and pressure to conform to it. With the first releases, bands are often going into the creative process without anything to relate to, and thus can create music solely for their own ideals sake, rather than feeling the pressure of a large/growing fanbase to make something that will appeal to the core fans, and still dillute the message enough to draw in more people. 
 
As stated, MUCC is a perfect example of this saddening phenomena, on the other hand, there's bands like Dir en grey who just keep getting more interesting and more experimental, so its certainly not a rule but rather a pattern that is noticeable in a lot of bands.

"There is objectively bad music (in a sense)" - I believe this to be a fairly controversial point to make, but only because people tend to miss the point I'm making, that there are factors that could label music as objectively bad from a composition point of view - it might be that they only rehash a certain chord progression to death, that they copy other bands in a manner that's so blatant and obvious that it makes it impossible to enjoy the music, simply put, the music they make doesn't bring anything even remotely fresh or innovative to the table. I believe that several of bands I consider to be good has some or several of these qualities though, so it doesn't neccessarily make them a bad band in someones opinion, just like I know of several bands with highly innovative and interesting styles that I personally find uninteresting because the music doesn't grab me, there's factors like personal preference in vocals etc. that can't be taken into account since there's no accurate way of measuring such things. Feel free to disagree with me if you want.

"There is objectively bad music (in a sense)" - I believe this to be a fairly controversial point to make, but only because people tend to miss the point I'm making, that there are factors that could label music as objectively bad from a composition point of view - it might be that they only rehash a certain chord progression to death, that they copy other bands in a manner that's so blatant and obvious that it makes it impossible to enjoy the music, simply put, the music they make doesn't bring anything even remotely fresh or innovative to the table. I believe that several of bands I consider to be good has some or several of these qualities though, so it doesn't neccessarily make them a bad band in someones opinion, just like I know of several bands with highly innovative and interesting styles that I personally find uninteresting because the music doesn't grab me, there's factors like personal preference in vocals etc. that can't be taken into account since there's no accurate way of measuring such things. Feel free to disagree with me if you want.