Live limited releases

[lichtlune 915]

I'm not sure if live limited releases have always been as common as they are now but it seems most new and underground bands take this kind of approach. Even some of the bigger bands release several live limited stuff. My problem with it is that the music is never available in any other way unless the bands post their songs on youtube or something else.

 

This is obviously bad for overseas fans because they are only limited to a few amount of people that attend their lives. What I want to know is, why not release their music digitally at least so that all of their fans can buy and listen to their music? If manufacturing of cd's is the issue this seems like the obvious thing to do. Do bands just not think about it or could they just not care any less about fans outside of japan?

 

What is your opinion on them?

 

 

[Dark Kinma 960]

Even if I don't like them for same reason as you, I understand live limited, it's for thank's the poeple who come to their live and who support them live, that's all, how they can attire much poeple to come and see them in live if they don't give a free present for thank's all of them (and for stuff who are sell exclusivly in live, it's the same thing, and because it's more profitable for the band to sell it directly to the public, less intermediate = more money for the band.)

 

And you does know that some of band are just focalised on their japanese public, because they are the big part of the support who they get. Japanese are the main target, and it's totally normal.

[BrenGun 2261]

There is a simple reason why to do live limited singles.

 

To get fans to their LIVES.

 

if it would be available online such as digital download or simple in webstore store. Not all fans would go to the live. So lesser ticket sale. lesser LIVE money for them.

Its all about the money

 

 

However they still are stupid to not release later a "LIVE sold CD" pack.  (or would that mean that fans would wait for such release? and not going to the live gigs )

[Zeus 7997]

I'm not sure if live limited releases have always been as common as they are now but it seems most new and underground bands take this kind of approach. Even some of the bigger bands release several live limited stuff. My problem with it is that the music is never available in any other way unless the bands post their songs on youtube or something else.

 

This is obviously bad for overseas fans because they are only limited to a few amount of people that attend their lives. What I want to know is, why not release their music digitally at least so that all of their fans can buy and listen to their music? If manufacturing of cd's is the issue this seems like the obvious thing to do. Do bands just not think about it or could they just not care any less about fans outside of japan?

 

What is your opinion on them?

Supply and demand.

Also, for most indie bands overseas fans are not of the utmost importance. Some indie bands give no fucks about overseas fans at all, and why should they? We are an unreliable source of income. Indie bands have little money to work with, so they need to cater activities and funds to where they get the most return for their money to continue band activities. Teenagers halfway across the globe do not factor into that at all.

 

If enticing people to come to your concert by releasing a CD available only at that concert brings fans into the hall, more power to them! At the end of the day, continuing band activities takes prime precedence. I don't like them as much as the next person but it's a more viable way to boost ticket sales than releasing a single in multiple types. In that context I can understand why they exist. If the song were made more easily available at a later date, there would be little incentive for live-limited releases. They would lose almost all their "appeal".

 

Now what I don't like are predatory practices in which you have to spend way more money than the song is subjectively worth but this isn't common. A good example of this is during Lycaon's erotic era, where you had to attend three different concerts and bring the stubs to the tour final to get a CD. That sounds like a gigantic pain in the ass and they're using the lure of an exclusive song to get fans to part with money. This kind of activities I don't like, but I can't find it within myself to care if I'm not even the target audience to begin with.

 

Really, the only reason why none of us like them is because it's a pain in the ass for us to acquire most of them. But I don't remember anyone complaining when ALSDEAD released Fragile only in Europe during a tour so it goes both ways.

[lichtlune 915]

Even if I don't like them for same reason as you, I understand live limited, it's for thank's the people who come to their live and who support them live, that's all, how they can attract more people to come and see them live if they don't offer a free present for thanks (and for stuff which are sold at lives exclusively, it's the same thing, and because it's more profitable for the band to sell it directly to the public, less intermediate = more money for the band.)

 

And you know that some of bands are just focused on their Japanese public, because they are a big part of the support that they get. Japanese are the main target, and it's totally normal.

Why not offer merchandise or a discount instead then? If it's supposed to be a "thanks". I also don't see how that works because not everyone is able to go to their lives for many reasons. Like living in a different country. It still doesn't make sense economically. Why limit the release to live only? Why not eventually release the music so that others can hear it?

 

Wouldn't they make more money if they open up their music to everyone to buy it? I don't think it's normal because to me it always seemed more normal to allow all of your fans a chance to listen to your music regardless of where they are from.

[Dark Kinma 960]

^ read the Zeus comment, and if after that you can't understand, we can explain more for you..

[BrenGun 2261]

 

 

Wouldn't they make more money if they open up their music to everyone to buy it? I don't think it's normal because to me it always seemed more normal to allow all of your fans a chance to listen to your music regardless of where they are from.

 

Not really, because oversea fans will put it online. soo.. then they will even sell lesser.. yes even japanese fans would download it.

Even if you ask sometimes a band why not. they simply say the don't want too. As, I don't care that you cannot get it. not even all our own japanese fans can get it because not everyone lives in the area where we will distribute the live limited only single. So yeah... we simply should accept it and find a kind japanese fan which want to grab it or to make a copy of the CD. or whatever.

[lichtlune 915]

^ read the Zeus comment, and if after that you can't understand, we can explain more for you..

I posted that before I read that comment. Anyway It still doesn't make sense. I don't understand how they make more money by completely eliminating a potential market. You would think there would be a way to make use of it in some way. Like how DarkWater mentioned packing the live releases eventually and selling it digitally or in CD format. 

 

 As, I don't care that you cannot get it. 

 

Great that you don't care. I was simply opening up a discussion about it out of curiosity. Love the condescending tone. 

[BrenGun 2261]

They would maybe make more money.

But they simply don't want to try it out.

They simply only want to sell/give for free to those who attent the lives.

All we can do is accept such thing.

 

sometimes we can be lucky that they will SELL it to you. But 99,999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% they simply say "no. please don't ask again, please don't ask japanese fan for help"

[Dark Kinma 960]

Yell you can be sure, if they take care about other country, they will diband after their first month... because how fan around the world can have a band like Gretel (actually disbanded) ? How many people has bought their single for exemple ?

Seriously, it's ridiculous to think than the fan around the world have more power to support the band, if you're not able to going to their live. Ok they can open their mind and try to sell their music for oversea fan.. well imagine they are more popular in other country, how the band can survive if nobody go to their live ? no way ! because they survive only because poeple buy their live ticket, and they attire more pople to their live because they sell cd only for poeple who come to see them in live...

Theu didn't care anything about you or other oversea fans, because it's not you who give them the money who they need to continue the band... it's is not the three/four idiot in oversea who can give them a chance to survivre more than one month... If you can't understand that, maybe you are as close-minded than they...

 

 

sometimes we can be lucky that they will SELL it to you. But 99,999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% they simply say "no. please don't ask again, please don't ask japanese fan for help"

LOL ! I mail a lot of band and, (the one who answer me) never same me "'don't ask again" or "don't ask japanese band for help" xD do you already try to contact a band ?

Off course, I receive a lot of "sorry, it's only avaible in live venue" and I can understand. But some of band answer me yes (like Gretel or Liberal) they send me the mp3 of their music.

[hiroki 5521]

I posted that before I read that comment. Anyway It still doesn't make sense. I don't understand how they make more money by completely eliminating a potential market. You would think there would be a way to make use of it in some way. Like how DarkWater mentioned packing the live releases eventually and selling it on digitally or in CD format.

The "potential market" you have in mind is disproportionately larger than the one that actually exists. Making a release easier to get is actually the best way to kill demand since someone can simply buy it and upload a rip publicly or share it with everyone who wants it. Not only are live-limited releases harder to procure, they are also less likely to be shared due to a variety of pragmatic and psychological reasons. (I'll also note here that a good proportion of people who complain about live-limited releases probably won't buy them even if they are a few clicks away, but would instead wait for someone else to buy and upload a rip. I'm not referring to specific people; it's just the way things work today.)

Also, don't forget that physical/online CD shops get a cut of the sales, so there's that too. Live tickets have always been and will continue to be the main profit avenue for bands, so it makes the most sense to maximize it. Chekis too, but obviously someone has to be at the live before he/she can buy chekis.

[lichtlune 915]

They would maybe make more money.

But they simply don't want to try it out.

They simply only want to sell/give for free to those who attent the lives.

All we can do is accept such thing.

 

sometimes we can be lucky that they will SELL it to you. But 99,999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% they simply say "no. please don't ask again, please don't ask japanese fan for help"

Yeah I already know japan is not open to outsiders. The internet just seems like such a useful tool that bands waste.

[lichtlune 915]

Anyway I don't care if you all think it's ridiculous or whatever the fuck. I was simply opening up the discussion because I was curious. lol

 

And Just so you all know yes I would actually buy the music if there was a way. It beats never having the opportunity to listen to it ever again. But I guess if it was more available people would just upload it anyway.. So really the overseas fans are probably responsible for it in a way.

 

I guess I'll have to live with never having the opportunity to listen to some bands. I just thought there might be another way.

[Dark Kinma 960]

Immagine you have a band in your country (no matter), and you organize some live. If you sell a exclusive cd you can buy 200-300 live ticket for each live  (2,500/3,000 yen) but if you sell this cd on some shop or later, who will sell only 100 ticket because of the other poeple will just wait for buy your cd (around 500 or 1000 yen)... make the calcul what it's better for the band... because, if they want win money to can continue the band and have a descent standard of living they are no choice... yes they are human who need money to live...

 

Do you think you baker will make his job for try to seduce oversea customer or for sell to the customer ion his own town ? It's the same, Band want sell their music for poeple who can support them, and you didn't support them only to buy one cd when it's released... they need to have a lot of public in their live, because it's their more important source of income....

 

and if you want really buy a live limited cd, some poeple here travel in japan and go to live, the only things to do it's talk to poeple, for exemple, I was interested by GAGA single's, so I search and found a personn on M-H who was in japan and see them in live, and ask if (s)he can take for me one copy.

If you really need something, you can find a solution to get it... closetchild and puresound sell sometime live limited single for decent price (if the demand of this cd is low)

 

But don't make mistake, I still hate live distributed release, only because I can't travel to go at Japan and see live, but you can sure, if me or you are able to see a band in live and take live limited release, our mind will change.

[BrenGun 2261]

and many bands also don't like to see their works uploaded for free at the internet. So thats for sure also a reason why they keep it so limited.

 

 

so in the end I guess there are a few reasons

 

1. getting people to their lives for getting more money

2. getting it more difficult for oversea people to get it to upload it to the interwebs

3. to make lives more special to sell/give something for free at a live date for those who always attend their lives.

4. to gain money to be able to do a next gig etc

 

The best thing you can do is; befriend to a japanese "fan". try to explain everything. And then hope she/he will help you out on their own free will. Then problem solved

Not having someone; to hope that someone sell it at yahoo.mbok so that you can get it via a proxy. Or to hope that someone here at this forum did catch a copy somehow.

 

But I always think in the end.

If a band don't want to make it more easy available. Alright then, then not an extra 1000yen from me. saves me money

[Zeus 7997]

 

I posted that before I read that comment. Anyway It still doesn't make sense. I don't understand how they make more money by completely eliminating a potential market. You would think there would be a way to make use of it in some way. Like how DarkWater mentioned packing the live releases eventually and selling it digitally or in CD format. 

 

 

Great that you don't care. I was simply opening up a discussion about it out of curiosity. Love the condescending tone. 

 

 

A potential market is a potential market only if it has potential. I'm going to guesstimate some numbers now to arrive at my conclusion from earlier.

 

Let's assume three things to begin with to make math simpler:

1. Monochrome Heaven is the only community on the internet that cares about visual kei.
2. Everyone that visits MH is a gaijin.
3. Everyone on MH is active and interested in visual kei.

MH has 7588 members so let's round that down to 7500. That means that the likelihood of an indie band gaining a fan overseas out of a total of 7 billion people across 196.9 million square miles is 0.00000107142%. If this were distributed across all 196 countries evenly, each country would have approximately 38 fans. Even if I were to estimate the number of fans that would show up to a live, one concert for a reasonably popular visual kei band would have "two overseas countries" worth of fans supporting them (approximately 100). And the band doesn't even have to do anything except aggressively promote themselves within their prefecture(s)!

 

Those numbers are a reasonable representation of the popularity of visual kei in the world. We aren't even the 1% of the 1%! We are not a potential market. We aren't even a market because it's not like there are droves of people lining up to buy their music. So why would a band care about overseas fans when they can see 3x to 4x the returns in a single concert at home? Like any other small-time band, local fans take first priority. Live-limited releases are for the local fans. We're just lucky if one of them happens to share it with us.

[lichtlune 915]

Immagine you have a band in your country (no matter), and you organize some live. If you sell a exclusive cd you can buy 200-300 live ticket for each live  (2,500/3,000 yen) but if you sell this cd on some shop or later, who will sell only 100 ticket because of the other poeple will just wait for buy your cd (around 500 or 1000 yen)... make the calcul what it's better for the band... because, if they want win money to can continue the band and have a descent standard of living they are no choice... yes they are human who need money to live...

 

Do you think you baker will make his job for try to seduce oversea customer or for sell to the customer ion his own town ? It's the same, Band want sell their music for poeple who can support them, and you didn't support them only to buy one cd when it's released... they need to have a lot of public in their live, because it's their more important source of income....

 

I never said that overseas fans are more important or that live performance isn't the most important source of income. I just wish there were a way for overseas fans to buy the music too without hurting the band. Would people actually not go to the lives if you didn't sell cd's there? So I don't even understand why live-limited releases get announced here anyway. If none of us will hear it it's pointless news.

 

I have a better understanding for them now though. It was a good discussion.

 

I'll just hope that I can hear the music some day. 

[hiroki 5521]

I never said that overseas fans are more important or that live performance isn't the most important source of income. I just wish there were a way for overseas fans to buy the music too without hurting the band. Would people actually not go to the lives if you didn't sell cd's there? So I don't even understand why live-limited releases get announced here anyway. If none of us will hear it it's pointless news.

I disagree that it's pointless news. If you want it badly enough there are always ways to get it - as long as it's a band that operates in Tokyo/Osaka, there's a low but significant chance you can find someone who's going to the live to buy it for you, or even to go to the live on your behalf. I've done that before. People may think it's kinda silly; but if you want it badly enough, who cares what others think? If all else fails, stalk shops/auctions for a copy. If we eliminate all news of live-limited releases, most of us wouldn't even be aware that they exist in the first place.

Another point: live-limited releases don't only affect foreign fans, so we should disabuse ourselves of this 'us vs them' notion. I have a friend living in Hokkaido who's a huge Xepher fan but couldn't go for any of their lives until their final one-man where she had to leave her graduation ceremony early to fly down to Osaka from Shin-Chitose. A lot of Japanese fans share our sentiments w.r.t. live-limited releases.

[Biopanda 2675]

The way I've always seen it has partially something to do with Japanese work culture. Every person I know who works in Japan(therefor has money to blow on a million cheki and other goods), might be lucky to have the free time to attend 1 live a week due to the brutal work hours there. By offering something that's live-limited, you're giving that person a reason to go to your live instead of the 10 other lives or whatever that are happening on that same day. Also realize that bands get paid according to how many people enter the venue and say they came for band X(at least in event lives). It doesn't matter if 1000 people showed up for a live, if nobody said they came for band X, then they get no money. So offering live-limited things is another way to get people to say they came for your band and not one of the other bands at the event.

[BrenGun 2261]

 

Also realize that bands get paid according to how many people enter the venue and say they came for band X(at least in event lives). It doesn't matter if 1000 people showed up for a live, if nobody said they came for band X, then they get no money. So offering live-limited things is another way to get people to say they came for your band and not one of the other bands at the event.

whut for real?

 

but what if you come for all bands? =_=

I hated that I had to choose when I did go to a gig.. I was ehhhh.. ok I pick this one XD but knowing that... then I know that I should pick the one with the most less fans. xD (at least if I buy a ticket at the door)

[Biopanda 2675]

Yeah, that's the unfortunate part. There's been plenty of times where I wanted to support multiple bands, but obviously you can only say one band at the door. I just tried to support the others with buying goods and stuff when I could.

[hyura 465]

VK bands, especially indies make most money from live performances and most of those live performances are events with multiple bands playing. As Panda already stated the band will only actually make money if enough people go to that live specifically for them.

Those events are often on weekdays, there are lots and lots of them and most japanese fans don't have the time or money to go to those just to see 'their'  band play the same set of 3 songs each night.

There are some hardcore fans who actually attend every tiny event but many casual followers will only go if it's a oneman or shuusai or yeah, there's a live limited release.

In my experience this offen applies to casual male fans. They make up a very small percentage in multiple band events, then suddenly appear at the oneman lives in large numbers to grab the live distributed stuff.

 

And no I don't think there's more live limited releases than before, old bands had lots of those as well.

[BrenGun 2261]

Yeah, that's the unfortunate part. There's been plenty of times where I wanted to support multiple bands, but obviously you can only say one band at the door. I just tried to support the others with buying goods and stuff when I could.

Its really good to know for the next time. That I should to try to buy other band stuff too. At least if they played cool.

[Takadanobabaalien 3607]

I think the reason a lot of the visual kei bands (especially smaller ones) don't put it out on itunes etc is because they are not aware of/don't think that they have fans outside of Japan, or at least not enough to make it worth the hassle. 

[Seimeisen 4406]

Uglymouth, on 14 Mar 2015 - 11:00 PM, said:

I think the reason a lot of the visual kei bands (especially smaller ones) don't put it out on itunes etc is because they are not aware of/don't think that they have fans outside of Japan, or at least not enough to make it worth the hassle.

That's true that many bands probably have little-to-no awareness of their overseas fans.

But what about iTunes/レコチョク distribution for fans that are in Japan?

It's too bad that Bandcamp is not popular in Japan! I think it would be absolutely awesome if VK bands distributed live-limited material (at the very least) on Bandcamp! The bands can distribute it themselves entirely, I guess commissions are low (all BC does is take 10-15% commission), people can choose to pay more than asking price for many releases (a fan can choose to pay ¥7,500 instead of ¥750), and I honestly can't see something like this doing significant harm to demand for the physical CD. There are collectors and dedicated fans alike who will still want a physical copy, instead of the digital version.

From what I'm guessing, distributing on Bandcamp would be worlds easier, and less costly, than distributing on iTunes (just take a look at this).

I am sure that Visual Kei bands would probably only jump on Bandcamp if it was popular in Japan. I also understand that there needs to be incentive for fans to throw as much money at the band as possible, as well as incentive for fans to attend the shows to see that particular band. Also, I am well aware that digital format is significantly less popular in Japan.