VK debate on YouTube

[Traxan 148]

Saw this discussion in the comments section for a Cyntia video. It looks like the girls are shedding any last traces of being a rock band and going straight pop. Anyway, this caught my attention and I figured this is the place to ask for how accurate their comments are. The poor spelling/grammar doesn't help in places, I realize.

 

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Shinichi Asakura2 months ago

 

Oh damn and i so hoped their last pop rock single is just a one time only , but it seems now it will stay this way . 

 

rkochamp072 months ago

 

Yeah same here. I hope they don't go down the Exist Trace route

 

Shinichi Asakura2 months ago

 

1st , they are already doing this , this is their second pop rock single .

2nd Exist Trace is now better than they ever where , those pseudo goth metal songs where badly written and arranged . At least now Exist Trace sounds like some band that knows wht they do and what they play .

 

rkochamp072 months ago

 

This is actually their third pop/rock single. Return To Myself, Gonna Gonna Be Hot and now Kissx3 And as for Exist Trace id have to disagree with you, I think the music they did on True was amazing and I feel like had they at least continued to work on that sound they could have produced music just as good instead of selling out and trying to become mainstream for what ever reason

 

Shinichi Asakura2 months ago

 

+rkochamp07 Wrong , VK bands are sellouts and what Exist Trace did was to cut off their ties with the typical image of VK bands , currently if not really that mainstream VK bands are the biggest sellouts in japan . Quick example in the fact that almost 99% VK bands play mainstream genres or comercialised genres , in this day and age no VK band plays any non mainstream genre . Nocturnal Bloodlust was Deathcore before VK , after VK lost half of the members and turned to post-hardcore , arlequin made some awesom MDM on their first demo now they are like 50% of VK bands playing Alternative Metal/Metalcore , and their first full album is the second worst album of the year after Gangsta that was overkill bad . For the first time Exist Trace does something that makes tham fall outside of the typical VK sound . You dont need to like it though .

 

Neo Fantasy2 months ago

 

+Shinichi Asakura I dislike typical VK sound, Cyntia made me change my mind about J-Metal, I don't think this is the end to their metal genre but they did say they are a Rock Band now in one of the interview. 

 

ginkarasu4 days ago

 

+Shinichi Asakura  I agree with what you say that VK are sellouts, but please stop comparing Cynthia to VK. I sincerely hope they go back to their metal roots. Because I don't have any interest in them anymore, if they keep going to make "cheesy" pop songs.

 

 

[nekkichi 6043]

does anyone really check for female vk? who are those cynthia girls? idontknowher.gif

 

everything else has kind of been talked about elsewhere, including mh, so idk

[JukaForever 758]

There isn't any argument that they are heading into a pop sound. Cyntia sounds similar in all three of their albums with Limit Break having the lesser catchier choruses/hooks IMO. There wasn't any drastic changes compared to Exist Trace in the first place. KISS KISS KISS is right in line with the music they have already produced. Once Saki starts doing growls, squeals then that is a time to actually ponder what different direction they are heading. Otherwise, good for them for getting more popular, it just means their hard work is paying off.

[DogManX 179]

Hm. I loved the old exist trace.. well, most of it. Don't care if it was unexperienced musicianship. It sounded great, only thing that matters to me. I don't like the new one at all.. not my style of music. And not that it *was* sellout in vk times and then stopped it is still sellout, more than ever.

 

I checked once for female VK bands..because you now.. there's a little fan demographic that isn't gay, female and/or attracted to androgyne crossdressers. but other than ET there wasn't really anything interesting out there. Is Cyntia (?) really that good?

[Asking 9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Fsg3UA3699A

[nekkichi 6043]

they sound like grown-up babymetal and are probably aimed at the same fans who sort of moved past the lolicon phase

 

why are they even called vk??

[violetchain 912]

^Cyntia aren't called VK, as far as I know? They're a regular hard rock/metal band that's gradually becoming more pop-rock.

 

The comments in the OP are just comparing the way their sound is changing to VK bands, and the other poster even says "please stop comparing Cyntia to VK".

[doombox 4421]

I pretty much agree with everything the Shinichi person says.

[Zeus 7997]

There would be more of a point to the topic if the original point was clear.

 

There's a contradiction running throughout the entire argument. I'm assuming "selling out" means going for a more accessible sound to make more money. And there's nothing wrong with that: artists need to eat too! But on one hand Cyntia is selling out for shedding their metal tendencies and going full pop while exist trace is lauded for dropping their D'espairsRay influences and going full pop? And yet Cyntia is going "mainstream" for adopting pop and exist trace is breaking away from the "mainstream" by adopting pop?  And the "mainstream" in question is pop in the first instance and metalcore in the second, the latter of which isn't mainstream at all and we only perceive it as such due to bias in our userbase's listening habits? I'm not quite sure what anyone is trying to get at. I also have noticed for a very long time that visual kei fans intensely dislike pop music for shaky reasons, confuse bands being different with making good music, and try to peg visual bands that mix several genres with one inaccurate label. The snippet in the first post is guilty of all three.

 

In regards to Cyntia, I always thought they were pop first, metal second. Them leaning more towards their pop sound doesn't surprise me. It also shouldn't get in the way of enjoying their music unless it makes their music suffer for the worst (I don't know, I find Cyntia boring as fuck personally). @nekkichi was spot on about calling them BABYMETAL for adults because that's what that PV spot sounds like to me too. It's also the most memorable thing I've ever heard them do. Their pop metal shenanigans from the past few years sounds like a watered down Aldious.

 

In regards to exist trace, yes they play a style of rock music not popular in visual kei and chose to not "sell out". So does LIPHLICH, the god and death stars, DISH, Wagakki-Band and a host of other visual kei bands. What's the point, that visual kei is unoriginal? We all already knew that!

[Traxan 148]

they sound like grown-up babymetal and are probably aimed at the same fans who sort of moved past the lolicon phase

 

why are they even called vk??

 

They are not considered VK. It was a case of discussion drift. This discussion came from a Cyntia video where someone brought up how much they changed their sound, then someone mentioned how Exist Trace have radically changed and that VK discussion thread broke out, irrelevant to Cyntia. And boy have ET changed. I just listened to their most recent single and couldn't believe it was the same band.

 

 

Seriously, WTF is that?

 

BTW, I love the song "Resonance". So which ET albums should I check out for more material like that?

 

As for Cyntia being Babymetal for adults, I've heard Americans call them Sailor Moon Metal. I think they are actually closer to Katy Perry. Count the boob shots on the singer in this clip.

 

 

And if what those guys say that VK is picking up on that horrendous American trend that is metalcore, that's really unfortunate. I was drawn to JMetal because it's NOT metalcore, which to me is just nu metal with more tattoos and Taliban beards.

[DogManX 179]

@Traxan You should check their EPs "Ambivalent Symphony" and "VANGUARD~of the muses~". Further, their LP "TWIN GATE" might also be what you seek. All great releases.

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

 

nu metal with more tattoos and Taliban beards

 

 

There also seems to be like a 4 year lag on this genre discussion because it's not like metal-core just became a thing, nor did it just become the en vogue trend for vkei (which it's moving away from anyway. Queue the kyopera and attempts at switching time signatures).

 

About the sample video, it just sounds like a generic female-fronted animu opening. Their producers may have felt this direction would increase sales, but it's hard to say without seeing comparisons. There's usually less people complaining about a change in sound like than there are people actually buying their stuff, and in the end that's all that really matters.

 

As for exist trace, their only good songs are "Resonance" and "Vanguard." Sorry.

[Traxan 148]

It's curious that so many all-girl bands are going soft. Cyntia, ET and Aldious, although I blame Aldious on Re:NO. She's a good singer but wrong for that band. They needed a screamer like Rami. Wish to God she'd rejoin the band but they haven't even acknowledged each other on Twitter.

[nekkichi 6043]

excuse me, at least katy perry released dark horse, and these no1curr bitches will never even dream of having one single that relevant

 

like

 

who cares about this shit??? all straight neckbeards we've had here are married to their Thai girlfriends already by now, like wtf

[Tetora 625]

Anyone else disagree with pretty much everything said?

What`s with the cartoon-ish simplification and generalization of everything, and why is that expected to hold up in a discussion with another human who has their own views and tastes?

 

I usually avoid reading Youtube comments as it isn`t exactly the best place to have riveting discussion, but:

 

VK bands are sellouts

 

 

Here we already see the poster making their words very hard to take seriously. Is there some magic spell that makes any `Vk band` a sell-out? Even the ones who played their biggest gig to an audience of 5 people including the bar-staff?

 

the typical image of VK bands

 

 

There may be a list of `typical images`but there is no one typical image or sound to VK bands, unless you think that Malice Mizer and LM.C are exactly the same...

 

currently if not really that mainstream VK bands are the biggest sellouts in japan

 

 

Either they think it is cool to hate VK (this is somewhat popular, right?) or a VK band ruined their life and they are on a journey for redemption, somewhat like in Kill la Kill or OldBoy.

 

I could pull up a huge list of people degrading themselves or doing something they don`t want to do for money, but I think the argument that poster was making is already moot enough.

 

Quick example in the fact that almost 99% VK bands play mainstream genres or comercialised genres , in this day and age no VK band plays any non mainstream genre

 

 

Not really, being VK itself is not exactly mainstream, hence the argument that a band is `selling out` by changing their music to pop music. Even big acts like Versailles weren`t exactly mainstream, unless old time France and long orchestral concept pieces  are a big thing and I didn`t know about it.

 

The biggest band from VK in years and years is SID, and they never changed, never stopped playing with VK bands, and their jazz, bossa-whatever sounds are far from mainstream.

 

Nocturnal Bloodlust was Deathcore before VK , after VK lost half of the members and turned to post-hardcore

 

 

Same rhetoric argument always shoved down our throats. They changed, okay. They could have made a better move and went to a more popular genre if all they wanted is money (and VK isn`t exactly a gold-mine considering bands more popular then them don`t make much either), but the main point is that claiming a band sold out by changing their sound or look is conjecture and shouldn`t be expected to be held up as fact, even if by ad populum it seems to be taken that way...

 

now they are like 50% of VK bands playing Alternative Metal/Metalcore

 

 

Not even close to 50% of VK bands fit this description from what I see. Unless they have some Japanese Census to show us...

 

and their first full album is the second worst album of the year after Gangsta that was overkill bad .

 

 

Plenty of much worse albums if one bothers to listen to more than the most popular download files before acting like they can judge every single release in a year.

 

In response to Zess:

 

I also have noticed for a very long time that visual kei fans intensely dislike pop music for shaky reasons, confuse bands being different with making good music, and try to peg visual bands that mix several genres with one inaccurate label.

 

 

Is any of this exclusive or consistent with all VK fans?

 

What's the point, that visual kei is unoriginal? We all already knew that!

 

 

Can`t say that I see how VK as one lumped together mass would be any more unoriginal than any other area of music. I find plenty of `originality`in it myself.

 

But anyway, agree with some of the other stuff you said.

 

The argument OP featured is so convoluted, generalized and skewed that I normally would just ignore it but felt like expressing myself. But even though I disagree with so much, I think Traxan makes some interesting threads for discussion.

[Traxan 148]

Well I know I can't judge the genre by 3 bands, but three things stuck out at me when i saw the VK episode of J-MELO: 1) These guys look ridiculous, 2) They are excellent musicians who have clearly studied with a teacher, as opposed to self-taught players who are more sloppy, and 3) the music was nothing out of the ordinary. Good, well played, nothing as shocking as their look.

 

Marty Friedman made a great observation in the "Global Metal" documentary about X Japan. He said they were the first to put together albums where you had a Megadeth-like thrash song and the next was a sappy Barry Manilow ballad, and no one in metal did anything like that. Now it's kinda standard. So while my knowledge of the genre is limited compared to people here, it seems to me there aren't a lot of people shaking things up the way X Japan did years ago.

 

Since someone will ask...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu1GM9IR2G0

[Zeus 7997]

Is any of this exclusive or consistent with all VK fans?

No, but it is consistent with the type of visual kei fan indicated in the first post.

 

Can`t say that I see how VK as one lumped together mass would be any more unoriginal than any other area of music. I find plenty of `originality`in it myself.

 

But anyway, agree with some of the other stuff you said.

 

The argument OP featured is so convoluted, generalized and skewed that I normally would just ignore it but felt like expressing myself. But even though I disagree with so much, I think Traxan makes some interesting threads for discussion.

You are also conflating originality with levels of being good. Plenty of bands are unoriginal and good. Plenty of bands are "original" and gimmicky. You don't have to reinvent the wheel to make good music.

[Tetora 625]

No, but it is consistent with the type of visual kei fan indicated in the first post. You are also conflating originality with levels of being good. Plenty of bands are unoriginal and good. Plenty of bands are "original" and gimmicky. You don't have to reinvent the wheel to make good music.

Seems to be a misunderstanding, I didn't conflate anything.

You stated VK is unoriginal, I disagreed with that. I think there are good original / unoriginal, and bad original / unoriginal bands in the huge list of diverse 'VK acts'. I found both of the statements I quoted to be unnecessary negative generalizations.

 

Edit: To Traxan, I think part of it is the natural progression of time, as it is much harder for any band to make an impact now. There has been a bunch of really influential bands since, but right now I am waiting to see who will be the next monster game-changing band which we are due for.

[Traxan 148]

Every genre goes through that. At best you get repetition with the subsequent generations, at worst, it goes down hill. There's a lot of steps between Metallica of 1983 and metalcore of today. Unfortunately, that path goes right through At The Gates, who are pretty much ground zero for metalcore even though they weren't. They were melodic death metal. The first generation to follow them, In Flames, Soilwork, Dark Tranquility, etc., were fantastic. Then came Killswitch Engage, then All That Remains and the rest of that musical diarrhea. I guess as the generations pass, they miss out on what made the innovator so good in the first place.