How important are lyrics?

[hiroki 5521]

For the purposes of this discussion, I guess we're mainly interested in visual kei and j-rock, but feel free to bring in other kinds of music if you like. 

 

So, the main topic here is: How important are lyrics to you? 

 

Do you feel that lyrics are essential to your appreciation of a song? Or are they completely peripheral and you can fully "connect" with the music despite not understanding its lyrics? Have you ever felt that the language barrier interferes with your experience?

 

And if you're someone who understands Japanese, do you find that lyrics add another dimension to your experience, or is it at best ornamental?

 

The above are simply some clusters of sub-questions that might be of interest (of course you don't have to respond to everything). I really look forward to everyone's opinions!

[The Piass 3472]

I think lyrics are important as well although my weak understanding of Japanese don't allow me to understand all the lyrics an it's for this that i reinforce my Japanese !  

[Tetora 625]

I understand Japanese, but I know many who love Japanese or Korean music etc... without understanding, same as English artists reach Japanese or others who cannot understand.

To me, the music has a value that stands alone without understanding the words. I can still appreciate HK or Chinese music for example.

I find that for me and others, you often get the feeling of the song and kind of the emotion without understanding words. It is already there , but actually understanding lyrics does add the writers perspective and individuality to it more.

I also find translations or subs I run across to be different.

Either the words and meaning are intentionally changed or unintentionally by the translator. The translators interpretation comes into effect no matter what and I find not many do it justice, but that is nature of communication.

Sometimes you even find that you liked your own misinterpretation more. Like even in your own languages you hear a song, and missing a lyric without knowing and you really like that line that you are singing, but then you read the lyric book or listen again and you find out the vocalist actually used a different word or two which resonate with you less.

[Sakura Seven 593]

They can make or break a band for me. 

 

I really don't like Plastic Tree lyrics, for example, so I don't listen to them much. I have a pretty average Japanese ability, so bands like Kiryu are totally beyond me when it comes to their lyrics, so I end up avoiding them too. Classical (is that what they're using?) Japanese is kind of a nightmare. On the other hand, I don't think I'd love amber gris as much as I do if anyone but Temari was writing their stuff. He's an amazing writer. 

 

I'm always a little bummed when I get into a band and can't find their lyrics anywhere. 

[hiroki 5521]

I also find translations or subs I run across to be different.

Either the words and meaning are intentionally changed or unintentionally by the translator. The translators interpretation comes into effect no matter what and I find not many do it justice, but that is nature of communication.

 

Someone once said that every translation is a different work altogether. That's why it's incredibly difficult to translate poetry for instance: the differences across languages make it impossible to preserve both content and form.

 

But your point is well-taken. I agree that sometimes "bad" translations can be a consequence of the translator misunderstanding the original lyrics, and it's not as detectable to the unsuspecting fan as some might think.

 

 

I really don't like Plastic Tree lyrics, for example, so I don't listen to them much. I have a pretty average Japanese ability, so bands like Kiryu are totally beyond me when it comes to their lyrics, so I end up avoiding them too. Classical (is that what they're using?) Japanese is kind of a nightmare. On the other hand, I don't think I'd love amber gris as much as I do if anyone but Temari was writing their stuff. He's an amazing writer. 

 

Haha, Plastic Tree lyrics are the kind of things you either love or hate

 

I can totally understand the point about classical Japanese. Heck, I have some training in reading 9th century Japanese texts and I still struggle with some of these lyrics =/ Although to be honest, I kind of miss Kagrra, and unfortunately Kiryu's music doesn't really work for me (irrespective of how "similar" their lyrics may be). I believe classical Japanese can work amazingly well with the right kind of songwriting/instrumentation - EVE's 朧月 being an example of that.

[Bear 1817]

Lyrics aren't important at all to me. I sure do apprectiate goodlyrics, or just fitting lyrics for that matter, but it's not important at all. After all, 80% of all music I have ever heard has got shitty lyrics and that doesn't bother me at all.

[Tokage 5930]

Most bands have terrible lyrics anyways, so I think if I actually understood all of it, it might even lessen my enjoyment of certain bands. For example, I think D's lyrics are extremely cheesy, but musically they can be pretty on point at times. However, if a band's lyrics are good, or at least interesting in some way (as is the case with 9goats blackout and Plastic Tree for example) then it just makes me enjoy listening to their music even more. (Bonus points if their lyrics unexpectedly turn out to be royally fucked up while their music sounds sort of bouncy.. Looking at you, every Eiji project ever)

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

Don't really mind bad lyrics. Sometimes if they're really bad it actually makes me like the song more. 

 

"Her body's smokin'; bet she'd die from cancer." 

 

"Y'all B-string like a broke guitar; And I still put it down like the family dog."

 

"All of my bitches bougie; Designer vagina coochie"

 

Bonus points when Japanese song lyrics are word plays for fucked up things!!! Like 37564 by cali=/=gari

[Guest Magatsu]

sometimes you listen to a song and you really love the melody. (for example GACK'T new song)

But if you look up the lyric then you kinda HATE the song because the lyric totally doesn't never fit your feelings.

I have that with lyrics who are about death people. that they miss someone who is death so much.

I didn't lost my lover because of Death.

So then it's kinda odd to love such song...

At least for me. so that's better to not be able to understand spoken/sung Japanese/English that well. XD

 

and sometimes it's pretty hard to get what the writing want to say... or to tell you. so then you can write down a totally wrong translation. Or you can't find the right words.

But most artist are like.

I don't care if it's get wrong translated.. people should feel the music in their own way.

[seikun 317]

How good or how horrible lyrics can be I tend to think it is very subjective...

 

In the meantime I envy those of you who are able to understand japanese lyrics by ear!

[sai 868]

^ I'm actually happy that I can't. If I understood a song and found out the lyrics were ridiculous I wouldn't enjoy it as much as I normally do, lol. I don't understand Japanese by ear, so when I look for lyrics it's always online. I'm pretty sure most of the indie bands I listen to have horrible lyrics as well. As long as I don't understand horrible lyrics, I'm fine with listening to it. I've had plenty of English songs that were instrumentally really rad, but the lyrics were just so plain bad that I immediately deleted it, lol.

[Mihenno 4194]

I don't know Japanese at all, but there are some words I hear often and know what they mean. (like "zutto" for example) 

I was actually just talking to a friend about this. If it sounds good, I'll listen to it, regardless of what the lyrics are. Part of me never wants to understand what they're saying because I feel as if I wouldn't like it anymore. This is the main reason I can't listen to music in English. Like i honestly can't even do it. It baffles me greatly that people listen to music solely for the lyrics (speaking about english music) which is funny because even if I'm listening to a song in my own language, I'm not paying attention to what they're saying. It's just words to me, if that makes any sense.

 

I think I like Japanese music so much because the language is just really flowery and beautiful and idk I'm fucking weird. With Japanese music, I really feel/connect with the music without knowing what they're saying based on the emphasis on words and the tone of the song and you can just sorta tell what the overall meaning of the song is. Ew, I remember when vistlip released Order Made and I was getting emotional watching the PV without knowing what the lyrics were. I was like "wow im fucking gross but ugh its so beautiful". 

 

The JRock/Visual Kei scene is perfect to me. I can't picture my life without it LOL.

[hiroki 5521]

I really enjoyed reading everyone's opinions! Keep them coming

 

I'm quite surprised that quite a few people have said that it's actually a good thing that you don't understand lyrics, and that helps you connect with the music more ^^ I've never really given much thought to this, but I think it's an interesting point. Like Mi'ihen, I don't listen to English songs much, and the reason is I find English too "functional" a language, and the lyrics become really dry and cheesy. Maybe it's indeed the case that having some "distance" between the listener and language is a good thing!

[sai 868]

I agree with Mi'ihen about how the Japanese language is more elegant than English. Maybe I'm just a massive weeaboo but idk, Japanese just sounds nicer compared to English, unless the vocalist can somehow bring it in a really beautiful way (I'm taking Florence Welch as an example). I feel the same about the post-rock genre, to be quite honest. I love my post-rock in French, because French is just such an elegant language and it fits the sort of music perfectly, as where English lyrics with this sort of music sort of...puts me off? I don't know, it just doesn't feel right.

[Tetora 625]

I agree with Mi'ihen about how the Japanese language is more elegant than English. Maybe I'm just a massive weeaboo but idk, Japanese just sounds nicer compared to English, unless the vocalist can somehow bring it in a really beautiful way (I'm taking Florence Welch as an example). I feel the same about the post-rock genre, to be quite honest. I love my post-rock in French, because French is just such an elegant language and it fits the sort of music perfectly, as where English lyrics with this sort of music sort of...puts me off? I don't know, it just doesn't feel right.

 

What I like about Japanese is that almost everything ends in open vowels, so you can hold any word, any note. Like in english so many words ends in consonants, and it is not the same if you try to the sounds of the words over a duration. Even in Japanese when the word ends in `n`or is shortened to mas or des instead of masu / desu, it still sounds so much better to me when put into vocals than English.

 

I also like the sentence structure, and the modest thoughtfulness of the Japanese language, and how it is still formal and not invaded with too much slang. Sometimes it is like the English words are the slang though.

[DogManX 179]

Too complicated in japanese. Also, every smallest writer can pull off the most beautiful poems in japanese, so it gets boring really quick. If I listen to japanese lyrics, that's enough beauty for me.

[237Q 154]

Yes and no. There are songs that appeal to me lyrics-wise and songs that I enjoy more for their melody. I haven't ran across that feeling most of you have mentioned, that I've heard incredibly stupid lyrics and they ruined the song for me. Idk maybe I just have selective attention lol

As somebody who translates vk lyrics often, I think visual kei is full with beautiful lyrics I didn't run across in music in other languages, and that plays a huge role in my love for the scene. I like how much variety of topics and feelings are put in it (especially coming from a country where every goddamn song is either about being cheated on, cheating on somebody, or getting drunk to forget the failed relationship. I swear serbian music is all about that). For example, Memento Mori's historical lyrics, Liphlich's psychology turns and Dolly's appeals to modern society and structures. My reading comprehension is far better developed than hearing when it comes to japanese so when I realize that lyrics are horrible in a new song I liked, I just don't look them up lol

However I do enjoy listening to music in languages I don't understand, especially when I'm doing something else and I don't want to be distracted but still need some enjoyable BGM. For example, I frequently listen to french artist Tete when I'm reading or studying because his voice tone and music relax me, even though I know like 2 words of french language (and one of them is "school" which is not very helpful with lyrics). 

[hiroki 5521]

To add to the discussion on language:

 

Sometimes I feel so differently towards expressions in 2 different languages that basically mean the same thing. I don't really know how to describe this, but I feel there's a lot more "depth" and "indirectness"/ambiguity in Japanese than in English.

 

Since DIV's "Seasons" happens to be playing now, I'll take 2 lines of lyrics from it as an example:

春霞たち　淡く名残り雪
梅雨寒し　肌を寄せ合いながら

 

Now there's almost no way of having an English equivalent of this without sounding somewhat pretentious or lame. EVEN if it's possible, I suspect there's no way of reconstructing the "seasonal" feel that emerges from just these 2 lines of lyrics.

 

Then again I dunno if all these have to do with the language itself, or it's just something to do with me (because I'm obviously more familiar with English than I am with Japanese). By the way it's also quite fascinating to me that a lot of vk artists (well not ONLY vk i suppose, but also in the larger Japanese music industry) seem to listen to a great deal of Western music. Numerous vk bands have cited famous Western musicians as their inspiration during interviews. Perhaps it's just a human thing that there's always a part of us drawn to more "unfamiliar" territory.

[237Q 154]

Here are my thoughts about Hiroki's point:

I personally think that is the effect of cultural differences, especially the lyrics part. The exact lines you've put there show one of two huge cultural differences between Japan and western countries (let's say England here because I'm far from super familiar with American culture). 

 

The first one being Japan's famous love and appreciation for nature. They have stuff like haiku poems about nature and numerous festivals celebrating nature (like sakura flowers day every spring) and through that connection with nature and natural world, they also developed a lot more sensitive "feel" for it and that reflects in the language too. Most of the words expressing some natural happening are translated to english as phrases. Here's an example:

In english, there is a word "snow", used for snow in any form. In japanese, there are:

雪-snow, 大雪- heavy snow, 新雪-new snow, 初雪-first snow, 粉雪-powdery snow, 天華-fancy word for snow, 雪氷-icy/frozen snow etc etc

There's a comparison with something from the nature in ridiculous amounts of vk songs. Heck, I didn't even know half the names for birds in english (or serbian), before I started learning japanese.

 

The second cultural difference is japan's perceptions of feelings. Being a small island (so you can't easily run away) it was unacceptable in people's heads to insult or get in a quarrel with someone. Naturally, the japanese language developed according to that and that's why some words expressing feelings are, as Hiroki said, a little bit indirect of ambiguous. After all, japanese people are raised to have a "actions, not words" mindset and they express through their doings rather than saying something to somebody directly. 

 

Both of these have had a great effect on the way people express themselves, and that's why I think translated lyrics sound so ridiculous at times - we simply don't feel them as much as somebody raised in japan would.

[digi 192]

Considering my Japanese skills are fairly poor, I tend not to pay very much attention to lyrics. However, if I do happen to notice that a certain song has lyrics that appeal to the emotions, that surely makes it even better, of course. All in all, I still don't believe that lyrics make or break a song in this case, because while I'm sure many songs have god-awful lyrics, the music in itself is still solid and is the main thing that matters to me.

 

Also, I couldn't agree more with this ;_; :

 

(Bonus points if their lyrics unexpectedly turn out to be royally fucked up while their music sounds sort of bouncy.. Looking at you, every Eiji project ever)

[Tetora 625]

To add to the discussion on language:

 

Sometimes I feel so differently towards expressions in 2 different languages that basically mean the same thing. I don't really know how to describe this, but I feel there's a lot more "depth" and "indirectness"/ambiguity in Japanese than in English.

 

Since DIV's "Seasons" happens to be playing now, I'll take 2 lines of lyrics from it as an example:

春霞たち　淡く名残り雪

梅雨寒し　肌を寄せ合いながら

 

Now there's almost no way of having an English equivalent of this without sounding somewhat pretentious or lame. EVEN if it's possible, I suspect there's no way of reconstructing the "seasonal" feel that emerges from just these 2 lines of lyrics.

 

Then again I dunno if all these have to do with the language itself, or it's just something to do with me (because I'm obviously more familiar with English than I am with Japanese). By the way it's also quite fascinating to me that a lot of vk artists (well not ONLY vk i suppose, but also in the larger Japanese music industry) seem to listen to a great deal of Western music. Numerous vk bands have cited famous Western musicians as their inspiration during interviews. Perhaps it's just a human thing that there's always a part of us drawn to more "unfamiliar" territory.

 

 

I know what you mean. To me, Japanese is a cleaner language, and just feels more free and pure to use or listen to, or read.

 

As for the good points made about nature being more a part of their culture, etc...

One thing that many historians cite as a big factor in Japan`s development and current state is the fact that they transitioned so quickly between the Samurai age and paper houses, etc... to their modern age. During WW2 many of the paper houses were burnt to the ground and cities destroyed. They rebuilt immediately from these to Modern-American structures once the U.S. took over, and they quickly reshaped everything from an age where Samurai were just finished dying out (turn of the century), to jumping into a semi-industrial age.

 

This transition from the times of artisans building quality works with artistic merit to production lines actually retained many of the traits of the artisan, and Japanese products started coming out with a much higher quality than standard for modern countries in almost all of their products, which eventually led to leading worldwide in electronics, motorcycles, automobiles, etc...

 

IMO this led to an emphasis in industry and quality being mixed and retained in their more hermetic culture, even with American and European influences. This is also the same factor that I believe led to the history and tradition being retained to such a great degree, including their thoughtful way of expressing themselves, and appreciation of things like nature, temples, hanabi, etc... even in large cities.

 

I interviewed mangaka about the origins of anime, and basically, they attribute the combination of wood block illustrations, with their thoughtful and silent storytelling, combining with the first forms or recognized anime being made as a rip-off of Mickey Mouse during WW2 to raise morale of the Japanese people. So once again we have the combination of old Japanese tradition being suddenly shot forward in time by WW2, and having the more hermetic culture of Japan adopt something yet make it their own.

 

I think it is the same with many forms of Japanese music, including Visual Kei, where music kind of stayed in one place for a period of time, as Japan does not abandon things or move on as quickly (it seems, IMO) and then it suddenly shot forward with a certain influence, and we get a new style of something that retains old qualities, and has new ones added on.

 

Rock music, comics, etc... really died off in many other modern cultures, but things like this seem to live on and be appreciated. Fads aren`t as quick moving or impermanent in many facets of Japanese society, it seems. Even now we can listen to many VK songs, and see different styles of writing, or composition, some new, many old, many original, where-as in the music I hear around here, you can easily tell the era of music by the way it is worded, composed etc... There are those that stand out everywhere you go, of course, but not as many IMO.

 

Anyway, that is just my opinion on things, and why Japanese lyrics are different. Feel free to disagree.

 

Also, I really love Chisa`s writing... The way he can make such cool and original songs, like Taste of Life, Golden Kinema, Love is Dead... etc...

[Augie1995 325]

I don't think lyrics are all that important...and they are. I have mixed feelings about it.

 

Whether it's involving japanese music or music with English lyrics, it's still equally important as it is unimportant.

 

There are some songs that I connect with that the lyrics just make me get all gooey inside or hit me hard that I in turn have to hit a wall to feel manly again, but then there are other that do that without the lyrics. I remember back when I listened to The GazettE's VOICELESS FEAR. I hardly understood the lyrics back then since my understanding of the Japanese language was miniscule. Still that was enough to not make me feel interested.

 

I also listen to a lot of metal, heavy metal, prog, all that. When there are growls, it's tough to understand what is being said but some songs can still influence me in a really good way.

 

Here's a band who's vocalist is hard to understand (Even though he doesn't scream or growl) and yet the song still makes me go nuts and it makes me appreciate the song about the same as if I knew what he was singing.

http://youtu.be/8vM4AE9SdrM

[madygrain 515]

If they're in japanese why should I give a fuck about them?

In fact the only reason I listen to music in a language I can not understand is for not having to endure the terrible writers most band have.

[Qliffot 118]

I can admit I've read this thread with big interest, so after some time of consideration I think I may at last express my opinion, although I have some strange feeling of dejàvu, that I did it before, but somehow my post disappeared. Anyway, I fancy it's kind of strange for me to read that some of You prefer not to understand the meaning of lyrics and especially about kind of "allergy" for English, or - in general - for understandable languages, as I would take liberty to call this phenomenon. Personally, I have no problem to listen to music with lyrics sung in languages comprehensible to me more than Japanese. In the latter one like most of You, I do not speak fluently, however since my earliest conscious experiences with Japanese scene I have been always trying to seek for such music, which lyrical themes and tropes would move me, even if my capability to understand any Japanese lyrics completely were scarce. But would not one be sure of possibility to identify with lyrical subject, if the song titles themselves talk about suicides, blood, roses and pale skins and madness? Absolutely!

 

More seriously, through long time I believed I already know Japanese good enough to understand most of favourite bands' lyrics. Actually I'm aware how wrong I was in such a ridiculous pride, but I still fancy my ability is sufficient to appreciate the beauty and richness of language. Naturally I can agree with conclusions from above: yes, the fact that almost every syllable ends in vowel really affects the poetical and musical properties of any work written in this language and second yes, the fact that this language is so rich in specific expressions (like with this snow-example by @237Q) leads to conciseness sometimes almost unattainable for users of many other languages. But I don't agree that uniqueness of Japanese syntax makes it somehow ideal and perfect. Since I prefer to listen to and to read poesy in many, mostly European though languages, I couldn't say that this or other language is in general way 'better' than the other ones, as I understood statements of some of You, as in my case it's absolutely not true. Except of Japanese, to my personal favourite languages used in music and poesy belong Latin, Occitan, Finnish and Middle High German. For I read a lot of mediaeval poetry, it may be reason, why it's for me difficult to agree that Japanese is the only nation which didn't lose strong contact with nature as well. I don't think that it's the only language with such a richness of expressions about nature, as works of some troubadours or minnesingers are comparable in this matter, but it's only my personal statement.

 

I think in my case the choice of Japanese music is partially because of lyrical themes used by my favourite artists and partially because of their sound and both are equally important to me. Probably I wouldn't listen to even my most beloved artists, if their lyrics wouldn't move me (the reason I listen to solo Satsuki so rarely). About my capability of understanding Japanese. I understand mostly nouns and verbs. I have problems with whole sentences and sometimes misunderstand persons and times. It doesn't disturb me to enjoy lyrics and identify myself with some best quotes. But I would never think that if this favourite quotations of mine were sung in English or German, would they move me with themselves somehow less than in case that they're in Japanese, as I have also a lot, or even more, since my ability to comprehend this languages is better, similar quotations from ensembles, or poetical works, or even novels, written in these mentioned tongues too. The point is that Japanese visual scene, or even Japanese music in more general meaning, is not the only one I am devoted too and it influences my look at referred problem.

[beni 2149]

It used to be the most important part of music to me at first, especially when I first got into Japanese two years ago. I love knowing what they're singing and the themes/ideas of the songs. Recently, there's so much music to get to now, I've stopped searching and reading along with music and just get used to giving it only listens. Lyrics are highly important to me, have been and always will be. I treasure them as much as the vocalist (biased vocalist lover, hai) and that won't change even if I try to get to them less so now.