Viewing Visual Kei as a Genre. (Questionnaire)

[Tetora 625]

Hey guys,

 

Quick Questionnaire to provoke some discussion and see everyone`s opinion / way of looking at Visual Kei.

 

As a quick preface:

I simply view Visual Kei as a genre, and terms such as Rock, Metal, Nu-Metal, Goth, etc... All simply as descriptors when inside of this genre. To be honest, I never use these descriptors much myself. When I am looking for new bands or sounds, I usually start with the image of the band. I can tell what kind of music they will have, for the most part, and also, get a rough idea of their quality. In my listening history this may seem like a simple, biased way to view things, but it has worked very well, although there area  few bands which slip under the radar, or I end up being putting aside and then realizing I like very much (Alice Nine Alpha album, DOG in the PWO, etc...)

 

I don`t really even know, or have much care for what terms like Nu-Metal and so forth really entail, and don`t think I will ever need the terms. I know this may seem silly to some, but my methods work for me. If I want a certain sound, I search for a certain band look. If a band changes styles, I can describe how they changed and from what-to-what the change was, but to be honest, putting genre tags or labels on to bands, songs, albums etc... Feels too judgmental to me, and like I am trying to brand things, which I am not interested in, in music. I also regard all Classic Rock, as just Classic Rock, I don`t worry about putting Rush into Prog.Rock, Lynyrd into Southern Rock, etc...
 

I feel like Visual Kei is free, or at least it should be, in terms of being anything the band wants, and genres don`t interest me, besides calling it all Visual Kei. Maybe I am just too romantic about it, but alas...

 

Just to clarify, I am not getting into what I think is proverbially, or objectively correct, etc... I am speaking on a personal level.

 

Questions:

 

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

 

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

 

3: Do the looks matter to you? If the same band dressed in Jeans and T-shirts with short hair, would you be as interested?

 

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

 

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

 

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

 

Thank you for reading, please feel free to discuss any of my opinions, and express your own within and outside of my questionnaire.

[Bear 1817]

Questions:

 

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

 

To me, visual kei is nothing but a scene or something like that. A genre is something that says something about a bands sound, and while a certain genre can be broad and have a lot of different sounds within it, it still says something about the sound the bands have. Visual kei says nothing about the sound itself as it range from electronica to thrash metal to pop and rock and so on. You can play death metal and be a visual kei band. You can play acoustic folk and still be considered visual kei. So no, not a genre to me.

 

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

 

One can often tell the genre, but one certainly can't say if one will like or dislike a band based on their look. A bands image says nothing about the quality on the music. You can look good and make shit music, just like you can look shitty and make good music.

 

3: Do the looks matter to you? If the same band dressed in Jeans and T-shirts with short hair, would you be as interested?

 

No, it does not. I don't mind a interesting/good looking band, but it won't matter at all when it comes to music. A good image however can be the difference between checking the band out or not, just like a good or bad coverart can be the difference between checking something out and not.

 

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

 

Yeah, I do. It all depends on what I want. If I want some new ambient black metal I will search for ambient black metal. If I want some nu-metal that's what I search for. But I don't do this often as I don't tend to search for a certain type of music.

 

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

 

No.

 

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

 

No, they are not.

[JukaForever 758]

 

To be honest, I never use these descriptors much myself. When I am looking for new bands or sounds, I usually start with the image of the band. I can tell what kind of music they will have, for the most part, and also, get a rough idea of their quality. 

 

I don`t really even know, or have much care for what terms like Nu-Metal and so forth really entail, and don`t think I will ever need the terms. I know this may seem silly to some, but my methods work for me. If I want a certain sound, I search for a certain band look. If a band changes styles, I can describe how they changed and from what-to-what the change was, 

 

If so then Visual Kei is not a genre, you are now using images (which I do as well) as a way to differentiate between artists. Then Visual Kei is another word for genre but using vision instead of your auditory system

 

 

Questions:

 

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

 

no as stated above

 

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

 

Can't really tell the genre just based on looks. To me the music comes first, the visual second. If the two works together then awesome but if not, then the music will always still be first even if the VK is terrible.

 

3: Do the looks matter to you? If the same band dressed in Jeans and T-shirts with short hair, would you be as interested?

 

I like visual kei due to the telling of story/vision that an artists puts forth with music and aesthetics. So for visual kei, it will matter and IMO is more interesting than a regular band but again the music comes first.

 

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

 

never

 

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

 

Not really, music is a subjective experience. I only get annoyed when others try to suggest what an artist should or shouldn't do. They are not the artist and their pushy views are un-welcomed for me at least.

 

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

 

Yea, why not? There isn't really any negative connotation with being visual kei anyway

[Original Saku 1593]

Questions:

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

It's a scene.

 

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

no that's just silly.

 

3: Do the looks matter to you? If the same band dressed in Jeans and T-shirts with short hair, would you be as interested?

no and again that's silly. considering i do listen to bands that wear jeans and t-shirts and have short hair the second question is quite irrelevant to me, but to be clear, looks do not matter and should not matter to anyone. It's about the music. Otherwise why do you like it in the first place? and you are silly if you only like a band for the looks.

 

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

depends. sometimes maybe. but not really.

 

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

No. unless it's ridiculous and on the complete other side of the spectrum.

 

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

depends on what you mean by "change"? if the band starts off vk but changes the look or sound but still plays with vk bands in the scene then technically by my standards they are still vk. This question is more for people who see vk as a genre and not a scene (which i might add imo is silly) since i consider vk a scene and not a genre of music it doesn't matter if they change their looks or sound, if they are still playing live gigs with the same or even different vk bands they should still be considered apart of the vk scene.

 

Disclaimer: These are the views of someone who is heavily separated from the vk scene and hasn't been associated with the scene for years. Thus take these opinions with a grain of salt. thank you.

[Kawaii_Minpha 194]

Edit: Message deleted

[hiroki 5521]

Questions:

 

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

 

It's a scene. There's some case to be made that it started off as a genre (where the sound was more "homogeneous") - but it's debatable. Visual kei today has hundreds of bands doing hundreds of different kinds of things - so it has to be a scene for me.

 

 

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

 

It's impossible to be sure about the "sound" of the band from their looks, although there are pretty strong correlations in some quarters of vk (e.g. the looks and sound of "kira-kira kei"). At the end of the day all of these "guesses" are inductive and cannot be known for certain until I listen to the band.

 

 

3: Do the looks matter to you? If the same band dressed in Jeans and T-shirts with short hair, would you be as interested?

 

Well, I'll have put my hands up and admit that looks matter to me. I mean, that's the whole point of visual kei right? Like someone else above has already pointed out, music is a subjective experience and in the case of visual kei, aesthetics constitute a significant part of that experience. I tend to think of this in parallel with the comparison between listening to a studio recording and going for a live concert. Clearly the "music", technically speaking, is the same. But the experience (e.g. the general ambiance and the visceral excitement of being in the same place at the same time with other fans who are having the time of their lives) is entirely different. I know it's a bit of a stretch, but hopefully you get the point The bottom line is that the visuals add an extra dimension to the experience that cannot be substituted for.

 

 

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

 

No, I don't. I'm not the kind who gets obsessively bogged down by technicalities of what songs should be pigeon-holed into which "sub-sub-genre".

 

 

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

 

No, since, following my answer to (4), while these genres are useful labels to conceptually organize music, they can never definitively profile music. So, of course I can understand how someone else might experience the same song in an entirely different way from me.

 

 

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

 

The short answer is no. But for the sake of convenient bookkeeping, I leave them where they were in my music library. If I had to constantly keep track of which bands are getting less vk and which more, I'll have no time to do anything else.

[seikun 317]

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

 

Hmm, kind of. Visual Kei is very diverse and the sound mostly depends on the bands' particular musical taste. However. I am not the only one who acknowledges Visual Kei achieved a distinctive sound in the mid 90's to early 2000's. Aliene Ma'riage is an example of it. I also give credit to bands like BAISER (early era mainly) for contribuiting to give shape to that sound.

 

 

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

 

When it comes to old school Visual Kei, yes, that's kind of easy, but with today's bands it is a bit difficult.You know, many bands dress up dark but sound either poppish or nü-metal.

 

 

3: Do the looks matter to you? If the same band dressed in Jeans and T-shirts with short hair, would you be as interested?

 

Looks matter to me but not more than the music. I like the dramatic performances many old school Visual Kei bands performed on stage. Today looks is more about looking cool and the dramatic performances have been brushed aside. I like to see theatre on stage and most VK today don't provide that to me. After all Visual Kei is about visual performances too, right?

 

 

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

 

I don't like Nü-metal or when song are heavily based on it. I specifically like the sound of old school Visual Kei. Although that doesn't mean I might not like some songs like Circus by GUILD. But the sound I am in love with is that of old school Visual Kei (ex: Aliene Ma'riage, Due'le quartz, BAISER, Lar~Mia, CANARY, etc). I like how songs used to change in rythm, style, speed, etc and old school Visual Kei provides that to me so I base my search for music on those aspects.

 

 

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

 

Yes I do, a lot.

 

 

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

 

It depends on the change.

[hyura 465]

Questions:

 

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

I'd say both, although the genre in that case is a very loose one and it's very easy to find 2 bands that are both visual kei but play music so different from each other that it's a little weird to put their music into the same category but:

If someone would ask for a band that is similar to some vk song I could only recommend other vk bands. Mathematically speaking it's a group. A closed system. The only way to get out of vk by always listening to something similar to the song you listened before is go backwards until you get to songs that influenced the genre before it existed or go forth in the history of bands that 'left' the genre.

Almost every typical structure, image, rythm and sound can be found outside of vk, but not in the the context it's used there, the impact is completely different.

 

And that is maybe because it's first of all a scene and one that mainly influences itself and developed such a unique live-culture. The songs are mainly composed to fit into a classic vk live performance, they are specifically designed for that purpose and as there is no similar live culture in any other genre the songs will sound different.

So. The scene influenced the sound and made it into a genre, although genre is not the right word. Rather 'loose category of song structures and patterns'.

 

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

Well most of the time the general direction is obvious, although lately it became a thing for upbeat and fun bands to wear black and thick make up to confuse me.

Still. If I saw the bands look, the cover of their cd and read the song titles I will always have a pretty good guess what they sound like and I'm almost never wrong. Liking a band because of their look is absolutely ridiculous, though. Well sometimes I think 'wow they look cool, too bad they sound shitty.' or 'Damn, this band is so much fun, it'd be nice if they put more effort into their looks, they'd sure get more people to listen to them.'

 

3: Do the looks matter to you? If the same band dressed in Jeans and T-shirts with short hair, would you be as interested?

Absolutely. That sometimes happened to me with bands that stopped looking visual, like for example La'Mule. They were actually better in the end and the plain look suited them, too.

However. it is really unheard of for a band to have a casual look (from the very beginning) and play the genre I prefer. (That is your typical 98-03 indies sound with lots of screams and insanity) So of course I'd only try them out if someone told me about it as I'd never assume it if I saw them.

 

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

I don't. Only by connections to bands I already like (same members, same label...) or recommendations by friends.

 

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

Certainly, yes. For example when people use 'kotekote kei' for a band only because they are old or refuse to use it only because they are new.

 

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

That really depends on how they change. Do they still use vk imagery, vk language, vk sale strategies?

Dir en grey for example dropped the looks a long time ago but they kept their 'visual kei' feeling because they still use cheap shock effects, dramatic language and still put on a theatrical show on stage.

On the other hand I'd never call Madbeavers visual kei. Everything about them is rock band, there is absolutely no connection.

[Shmilly 519]

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

 

First and foremost, I would argue that visual kei is a scene, since a genre typically defines some quality of the sound or style of the music. What makes visual kei different is the 'visual' aspect. VK bands incorporate such a huge range of genres that it would be wrong to call them all 'visual kei' and be done with it. However, hypocrite that I am, I also personally find it convenient to think of VK as a genre too to some extent. I categorize my Japanese music for the most part into visual kei and non-, which then becomes rock, metal, or whatever umbrella I think the band falls under.

 

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

 

It's difficult to tell exactly what kind of sound a band is going for based solely on their image, although as a long-time listener of visual kei there are certain characteristics that give you a hint. For example, lolita styled bands like Versailles tend to have a kind of classical, technical style, while dark outfits and gloomy makeup make me think Nagoya or eroguro. The poppy bands like oshare kei conversely dress very brightly. Despite obviously knowing my own taste in music though, guessing a band's sound from the outset is not the same as listening to their music and their look alone won't suffice to tell me if they're worth my time.

 

3: Do the looks matter to you? If the same band dressed in Jeans and T-shirts with short hair, would you be as interested?

 

In a genre called 'visual' kei, of course the looks are important. But if my favourite visual band suddenly turned to casual clothing, that doesn't mean their sound would change too. The only thing that would stop me listening to a band I like is if their style changes too much to something I don't personally appreciate. If Signal had decided to switch to jeans and T-shirts, they would still be one of my favourite metalcore bands. I guess that's the difference - lose the visuals, and it's not really 'visual kei' any more.

 

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

 

I'm aware of the infinite sub-genres people try to define rock and metal music under, but it doesn't really bother me. I tend not to search for music much anyway, a majority of new bands I come across are from news forums like these, or recommendations from friends. I have attempted to some degree to categorize my non-visual library into the broader sub-genres, but as I said before, that's reserved for anything I haven't deemed 'visual kei'.

 

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

 

I haven't really encountered this. If I did, I think it would only bother me if it was clearly something very different from the style the band is going for. My real pet hate is people tagging Japanese bands in unicode for things like Last.fm, purely because it categorizes them uniquely. The only time you should tag a band name in unicode is if that is the band's official styling. Otherwise, well, you're tagging them with a different band name.

 

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

 

I know this is a rule we enforce on the download forums here, but in my opinion, no. I can see how it is much easier in this case, where time is saved searching up bands' past releases, but there's no reason to continue calling a band visual kei if they lose the visual aspect. That's the defining feature of the scene, genre, whatever you decide to call it.

[Nyasagi 259]

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

It's a scene, but visual kei bands have a certan sound that others don't. I had many people telling me "non visual bands sound the same". No, they don't. Period.

 

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

My knowledge about genres is very small, because I simply don't care about them. I care if I like the sound, or not. In visual kei both music and looks are important, if someone likes the band just for their look, it's a fangirl, so I can't pick neither option.

 

3: Do the looks matter to you? If the same band dressed in Jeans and T-shirts with short hair, would you be as interested?

I wouldn't get interested in the band if they didn't start as vk (because non vk bands are blargh, not my thing, I rarely like any songs of them), but if they stopped being vk and their sound didn't change, I'd be still interested. If their sound changed to something I don't like, I'd lose my interest.

 

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

No, like I said, my genre knowledge is basically non-existant. I usually divide vk bands into two groups: darker sound and happy, cute sound.

 

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

I don't care about other people's opinions, so no.

 

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

If they stop being vk, they're not.

[Champ213 1858]

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

Nowadays it's a scene, and it has been so since at least 10 years. There's no way that bands like Versailles and Sug belong to the same musical genre. In the earlier days of vk, the musical style was more homogenous and I based on this there is, I guess, some sort of "vk sound", but basically even a band devoid of any of this "Vk sound" could still be vk.

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

Most of the time the look of a vk band gives me a very good impression of what kind of music they play. Which is pretty useful when looking for new music. Sadly, the music still may suck though, even if the bands look awesome. XD

3: Do the looks matter to you? If the same band dressed in Jeans and T-shirts with short hair, would you be as interested?

I'm not gonna lie, yes, the looks matter to me. Let's just say: I like a good performance. For me visual kei is the opera of rock music, and when I go to the opera, I don't want to see the actors in jeans and dresses either.

That doesn't mean that I don't listen to non-vk. Good music will always be good music. As a matter of fact 80% of my listening habit today is non-vk. But the type ov vk that I'm mostly interested in - the dark, gothy, oldschool type - should definetely look the part as well. And they pretty much always do, so that question is very hypothetical for me. Could you imagine a band sounding like Malice Mizer, but dressed in jeans and t-shirt? No? Me neither.

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

I'm terrible at genres. XD In regards of vk, I rarely search for specific sub-genres. As I said, the look usually gives away their general sound, and then you just have to try them. For music outside vk I may occasionally look for sub-genres, specifically sub-genres of metal.

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

No, because I'm terrible at genres myself. XD

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

As I said in some other thread, I'm very generous when it comes to count bands as "vk". I also tend to look at bands and their music as a whole, and not just their current state. So I'm very likely to count a band as "vk" even some time after they have dropped the look, especially since this is usual a gradual thing of toning down the looks over several years.

[CAT5 9075]

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

Personally, I view it as both a scene AND a genre. While there are technically a variety of genres played within the scene, I feel like you'll find common musical nuances amongst them all (most notably the vocals) that strings everything together. I think when you remove those nuances and place them in a different musical setting, people will automatically think of "visual kei" when they hear it - which is why I regard it as a genre/style of music in addition to it being a scene.

 

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

It depends. Most VK looks horribly tacky to me (with a handful of exceptions), so If I were to judge bands purely based on their looks, I'd miss out on some potentially cool tunes.

 

3: Do the looks matter to you? If the same band dressed in Jeans and T-shirts with short hair, would you be as interested?

I personally don't care for the looks. Good music will be good regardless. However, I think the VK scene NEEDS the entire image aspect to be successful. For a lot of bands in the scene, "image" is all they have going for them lol.

 

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

I search for music that will appease my ears. Obviously, there are certain genres/subgenres that appeal to me more than others, but I try to keep an open ear out for everything because with so much music out there, it's easy to overlook cool tunes. This is one reason I enjoy making and receiving mixtapes.

 

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

Not really. There's a new genre and sub-genre invented everyday, so to get flustered over someone mislabeling music seems a bit ridiculous. There's a ton of music out there that is completely ambiguous and defies labels, so many things can be left up to one's interpretation. But on the same token, If something is being CLEARLY mislabeled, I don't mind spending a few moments to educate someone (if that person is receptive to new knowledge that is).

 

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

Typically, I still tend to associate them with VK - like with lynch, MERRY, dir en grey, even miyavi. It's easy to change your image, but it's a bit more difficult to completely erase certain influences from the music you create.

[lichtlune 915]

 

Questions:

 

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

 

A: I'd say visual kei has some of the characteristics of a genre but it's more of a scene or musical movement of some kind though.

 

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

 

A: Not entirely but I'd say when it comes to visual kei yes, for the most part. But something like xodiack would be a big surprise if you were hearing them for the first time though.

 

3: Do the looks matter to you? If the same band dressed in Jeans and T-shirts with short hair, would you be as interested?

 

A: Of course they matter, When you're looking for a potential spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend or something looks and first impressions mean a lot, and I'd say that's kind of true for music as well. The bands who dress up are the most rebellious or expressive and that shows in the music a little bit too. If a band sounds good in T-shirts and jeans then I'll listen to them all the same but if they look completely boring and uninteresting then chances are i won't give them a try. Someone would have to recommend them to me first usually.

 

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

 

A: yes

 

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

 

A:Not really unless its ridiculous, genre's are so ambiguous anyway.

 

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

 

A: Not exactly but they will be known within the VK fandom and visual kei fans will definitely listen to them still. 

 

 

[Zeus 7997]

Hey guys,

 

Quick Questionnaire to provoke some discussion and see everyone`s opinion / way of looking at Visual Kei.

 

Questions:

 

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

 

I answered this question a while ago. It's neither, although it leans closer to being a scene. It may have started out as a genre at one point but it's long since surpassed those boundaries. It cannot be a genre because not every visual kei band plays the same type of music. For any genre you name, someone else can find a band that considers themselves visual kei that don't play that genre. Visual kei is simply music with a focus on visuals (hence visual style). Visual kei can't be pigeonholed into a scene or a genre without losing some of the picture.

And in case you missed my answer from before:

Visual kei is not a genre or an aesthetic movement. It's a paradoxical manifestation of an anomaly against the negatives of Japanese culture.

This is closely related to the problem of "what is visual kei?".

Stolen shamelessly from Wikipedia, a genre is defined as

 

[...] the term for any category of literature or other forms of art or entertainment, e.g. music, whether written or spoken, audial or visual, based on some set of stylistic criteria. Genres are formed by conventions that change over time as new genres are invented and the use of old ones are discontinued. Often, works fit into multiple genres by way of borrowing and recombining these conventions.

We can stop right here. Before you start processing the definition, ask yourself "what is visual kei"? We can have a ten page discussion about that in this topic right now and still not come to a consensus. Visual kei is an open-ended, ill-defined term exploited by both us and the bands in the scene to refer to whatever we please. We agree to disagree on what the term is supposed to mean and take it at face value when someone tells us that a band is or isn't visual kei anymore.

By definition, visual kei can't be a genre because we can only define it by what it is not, and very conservatively at that. The difference between newbies and veterans in the scene mostly comes down to context sensitivity determining band classification. What do I mean by this? Well, we can all look at a band or an idol group and very clearly say "this is not visual kei". But if we look at a visual kei band next to a band that uses theatrical make-up and aesthetic elements, we get into murky territory. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Newbies lack the knowledge to make this distinction, and utilize only the looks to say whether or not a band is visual. Then, they get lashed upon by fans of that band who "don't want to associate this band with those bands" for getting it wrong, and they learn. Eventually they learn only to label a band as visual kei if they describe themselves as such or if someone else before them says it first. ^[1]

The thing is, the newbies have the right approach at first. They get into the scene, they hear that it's a genre, and seek to classify it. But before long they realize that over the span of twenty years, visual kei has birthed bands that sound very, very different. Going off of sound alone, all bands that were ever considered visual kei can't be connected short of a definition so vague it's useless. So then we turn to the costumes and theatrics and claim that as a large component of what makes a band visual. But even there, we can piece together different bands that don't look anything alike - some bands which don't look remotely visual at all - and claim they are all visual kei. Hell, lynch. has looked like a normal band for quite some time and there's still a heated debate to whether or not they're visual kei. On the first page of this very topic, one of the unpopular opinions was that "Dir en grey is still visual". Once again, you now have bands that have very little in common aesthetic wise and short of a very vague, useless definition we have nothing to go off of.

So I've basically run through this problem, haven't given a solution and haven't explained my point (or have I?). What gives?

Well as a fandom we tend to separate visual kei bands based on decades, so let's do that:

- The mysterious late 80's, which most of us like to pretend doesn't exist, full of bands that play some form of rock or metal.

- The music of the 90's, which is usually thought of as bands inspired by Victorian and goth costumes playing...well, whatever they want.

- The 00's, which was populated by lots of flashy costumes, usually subdivided into subkeis to better be able to classify and understand bands but still full of bands playing whatever they want.

- The 10's, which seems to have a preponderance of electronic elements in the music but for the most part still full of plenty of different bands playing whatever they please.

And even here we tend to simplify this as to "80s HAIR METAL, 90'S GOFF MUZIK, 00'S KEI ON KEI ACTION/RAWRCORE, 10'S WUB-WUBCORE", which illustrates the points I made above. As a fan, you get to a point where you realize that the term can't be defined and thus you stop. The working definition is "If a band wants to be visual kei, they'll be visual kei. When they don't, they're no longer visual kei". ^[2] So doesn't this describe a movement, which brings together people just as different for a common cause? Let's go through all of the things that should make a movement and see if it lines up.

Well let's see:

- Coordinated group action. Well, visual kei isn't very rebellious or subversive, outside of the low barrier to entry being offensive to some people's ears and the costumes being offensive to some people's eyes. Unless there is this entire "point" they all share that we've missed for forever and a day, I believe that most bands focus on staying functional over staying Stallman-esque in their beliefs. ^[3] And frankly, I can't blame them. Pragmatism rules. ^[4]

- A common cause. But what is that cause and do all bands share it? As I said above, we really don't think of visual kei as something as much as we do as an entity against something. But even that "entity" changes over time, reflected by the different forms of visual kei. So do the bands of the late 80's and the bands of today share the same goal? Yes and no. ^[5]

- People from different walks of life. We can't say too much because we don't know the details of most musicians. Note however that on a macro scale most visual kei bands are Japanese and many tend to gravitate around a few cities on the mainland. We also can surmise that a lot of these musicians are poor or struggling. We also haven't seen the scene take root in any other countries with similar situations. In this sense, it represents a truly Japanese problem - disillusioned youth versus "The System". If it's a movement here, it's on a small scale.

Visual kei is too anti-classification to be a genre and too inconclusive to be a movement. So what is it?

My admittedly semantic description of visual kei is that of a paradoxical anomaly. It exists, full of people perpetuating it unaware of it's purpose, fighting against an issue that plagues the Japanese society whilst embodying almost every characteristic of that society. What is that issue? Well, I believe the issue lies in the extreme conformity and deference to authority found in the society, coupled with high expectations placed upon every member of that society, along with a thirty year recession that has stagnated the Japanese economy and makes it hard to achieve the life every Japanese person feels it is their duty to obtain.

A strictly Japanese problem. ^[6]

Visual kei exists as an antagonist to everything in that society, even definition, because it refuses to conform. It's piloted by people who know full they may never see success but toil anyway as a gigantic "FUCK YOU" to their society. It's also mostly populated by young people with the drive and ambition to change their surroundings but no means to achieve that change (and older people who exploit these young people for the cash they'll never see, bringing the entire scene into territory so meta it hurts). When those kids grow up and lose their drive, as after years of fighting against this nebulous problem they watch it shift into something new but no less harmful, they give up, slip into the routine, and become working salary men that can't be identified. It's an anomaly that just is, and that anomaly happens to make noise that we like to listen to.

To pigeonhole visual kei into anything else misses the political and cultural significance that caused it's birth.

tl;dr - Visual kei is the Japanese "hippie culture" of the 60's, with no Vietnam War in sight to bring it to an end. ^[7]

Notes:

Here I extrapolate on points that I wanted to make above and didn't because I didn't want to go on a tangent and not come back.

[1] This is my personal belief behind why revival bands like Grieva and Ru:natic will never see a resurgence. The forms that visual kei took in the 90's was in resistance to the culture and expectations of the 90's. The world is an irreversibly different place and thus visual kei must change along with it. This is also why I believe that visual kei is not an aesthetic - the fashion world moves in cycles much shorter than 30 years. Visual kei hasn't repeated a phase to date. That's why I believe it supersedes such a definition.

[2] Not only does this loose definition work but it reflects a lot of what I get into later in my argument. Most importantly, that it gives an element of control back to the band. I've read in multiple places that the Japanese populace don't feel like they have much choice - they must succeed in school, get into better schools, succeed there, get a good job, start a family, etc. - and then must face a wall of depression when they realize that most can't get to the head of the pack and they didn't. By sticking to this definition, bands can have a say in a core element which defines them.

[3] Richard Stallman, founder of the GNU Project. Read up on him to see what ideals unbounded by pragmatism really is. Hint: it sounds like crazy.

[4] When bands have no motivation or have run out of reasons to continue they sometimes disband for no reason. On the other side of that coin, some bands are so tight knit that they feel as if they can't function if a member leaves. But at the heart of it all, many bands don't put ideals and beliefs over success. Those that have them use them alongside the visuals and their music - and even then if it becomes too hard they quit or if they become successful they tone it down or cut it out completely. See, NoGoD.

[5] Even more interestingly, visual kei itself tends to conform in ways, which subverts the point of the whole thing. It's like a military group led by a dictator attacking a dictatorial government for its evils. This is why I refrain from calling it a movement, because it itself embodies the very principles it seeks to combat.

[6] Which is why "overseas visual kei" will never take off. The societal conditions are not right for it to spawn. YOHIO and Seremedy are second-order simulacra.

[7] After WWII, Japan isn't allowed to have a real standing army so it isn't in it's best interest to get into conflicts. I meant it literally. In another sense, you could say that the counterculture of the 60's was against "The System" but manifested itself through the War. Once the War ended, the culture had little reason to exist. Since visual kei doesn't have such a clear cut enemy, it will continue on for much longer. This is also why visual kei can't "die".

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

The way this question is phrased is deceptive since you already assume visual kei is a genre. In the sense that it has elements of a genre, it's sometimes easy to tell that a band is visual by looking at them. Othertimes, it's so subtle that it shouldn't matter. I'll never know if I'll like them until I hear a preview, because visual bands can look like anything and play whatever they want.

3: Do the looks matter to you? If the same band dressed in Jeans and T-shirts with short hair, would you be as interested?

Looks mean nothing to me and I happen to think most visual kei bands look terrible. Once again, I don't care as long as the band sounds great.

 

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

In the Visual Kei scene, no. Visual kei covers a lot of different genres, but the concentration seems to be around either pop or metalcore. It's not time effective to do so.

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

No, I just repost the answer to question one and wait for the inevitable lack of response.

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

See answer number one.

[Tetora 625]

The difference between newbies and veterans in the scene mostly comes down to context sensitivity determining band classification. 

 

 

What is the context here? Also, I would like to note that people inside of the industry and Japan seem to actually use less of these contexts and classifications than the fans and critics.

 

There are many bands in Japan, and in the past, such as easy examples I will use including AC/DC, who didn`t want to be called Metal, or Hard Rock, they just said they were a Rock band. Def Leppard also called a Metal, and Hair Metal band, they said they were just a Rock band. Writers and fans put labels such as Prog Rock, and Southern Rock on things... Etc...

 

To the bands it is all Rock, same as to me, it`s all Visual Kei. Maybe even the terms Genre and Movement or Scene are too restrictive as you say.

 

Really, I see sub-genres as useful for the people that live by them, but useless for those that don`t. 

 

I don`t mind what other people call it, since they are describing their experience. As it is their experience, they use their own terms... But does something have to be seen as this kind of rock? And does Visual Kei have to be acknowledged this way as well? 

 

For example, if a new band comes out and describes itself as Visual Kei... What are they saying? If a friend not familiar of Visual Kei or Japanese things at all asks you what they mean... What would all you guys say? If someone asked you what is Visual Kei?

 

I`d say a form of Japanese Rock music based that came from the band having their own look. It`s a pretty open-ended description, but to me, Visual Kei can`t be described as much as it just has to be witnessed. Then everyone comes up with their own idea of what Visual Kei is, which is nice...

 

As a Japanese thing, it also shares some, but not all similarities to the classification systems used with Manga, Anime, etc... These things are seen as a distinctly Japanese thing, and have not really been duplicated by any other area of the world to any discernible level even close to Japan`s prowess in these things...

 

In Zess`s opinion it is a strictly Japanese problem (ad-libbing here so pardon if I slightly twist the intent of that sentence) but I`d like to ask you guys... Really why?

 

IMO people all over the world find Visual Kei, etc... And love it, relate to it, etc... But for all the Japanese things out there, we really never get to their level at their own game while Rap was seen as becoming of a particular people, culture, etc... Yet it has sprung up everywhere, and some argue the best rapper is white...

 

So what`s everyone`s opinion on that?

 

IMO, much as more experienced fans gain traction discerning the popular opinion of what is VK, you also either gain, or always have the ability to distinguish between a knock-off from another country...

 

Do other cultures ostracize such things and prevent them from occurring? Are you not raised the same way? The environment? 

 

 

Moving on...

 

Going off of sound alone, all bands that were ever considered visual kei can't be connected short of a definition so vague it's useless.

 

 

Going off the sound I would say they are all Rock, and even stuff from LM.C and Uwakimono is visual kei sounding to me. That`s just my view though... Luna Sea is the predecessor of Alice Nine, and so forth... Kuroyume goes to Dir En Grey.... Which goes to Gazette... then begets Mejibray. Not so simple, but it fits...

 

So then we turn to the costumes and theatrics and claim that as a large component of what makes a band visual. 

 

 

 

This has never been VK to me, just what some bands do... SID is VK with whatever they wear. Luna Sea can wear Suits... Etc... Even if you wear the infamous jean and t-shirt, it can still be Visual.

 

 

As a fan, you get to a point where you realize that the term can't be defined and thus you stop. The working definition is "If a band wants to be visual kei, they'll be visual kei. When they don't, they're no longer visual kei". 

 

 

True. When you define it, the definition is open ended. But it`s the same way when MuCC plays a reggae song, or jazz, etc... It`s still seen as Rock with these elements, etc... Same as Eagles play any kind of song, and it`s Rock with these elements... Is an open-ended definition not valid? IMO Rock, VK, etc... Are open-ended by nature.

 

We also can surmise that a lot of these musicians are poor or struggling.

 

 

Not necessarily, many famous VK bands, including some of the originators had enough, or more than enough money. Yoshiki started his own label, recruited Luna Sea and Glay, then helped Dir En Grey get started. 

[Tetora 625]

 

In this sense, it represents a truly Japanese problem - disillusioned youth versus "The System". If it's a movement here, it's on a small scale.

 

I think this is subjective. If we look at the origins of the looks and why different important bands got into VK, it doesn`t seem this way, it seems like more of a personal expression on a person-to-person basis. Over-all, you still get many important bands presenting themselves as polite, well-raised members of society, whether that stands in real-life, I don`t know, but they still present themselves that way much of the time. Is it really a system that many of them are fighting?

 

It exists, full of people perpetuating it unaware of it's purpose, fighting against an issue that plagues the Japanese society whilst embodying almost every characteristic of that society. 

 

 

I think this is condescending and biased to be honest. We are assuming something and then criticizing based on an assumption here.

 

Well, I believe the issue lies in the extreme conformity and deference to authority found in the society, coupled with high expectations placed upon every member of that society, along with a thirty year recession that has stagnated the Japanese economy and makes it hard to achieve the life every Japanese person feels it is their duty to obtain.

 

 

Contrary to this belief,  would say the rest of the world is on average much more conformist that Japan. Due to the respect, politeness etc... And tough competition in school and work people like to put it into this box but if you look at how much freedom the people actually have, and how much more you will be accepted their for your differences, I would disagree.

 

Also, the Japanese Bubble burst in the 90`s, after VK had taken off, and bands continued growing until around 2000, when the economy began turning around more.

 

Visual kei exists as an antagonist to everything in that society, even definition, because it refuses to conform. It's piloted by people who know full they may never see success but toil anyway as a gigantic "FUCK YOU" to their society. It's also mostly populated by young people with the drive and ambition to change their surroundings but no means to achieve that change (and older people who exploit these young people for the cash they'll never see, bringing the entire scene into territory so meta it hurts). 

 

 

Again, to say this, I think you pigeon-hole VK worse than just calling it a genre or movement, whatever... I don`t think this info stands or has a verifiable source to back the claims, and also would like to add that many establishments within the VK scene, such as labels, venues, etc... Are run by VK alumni... Going major is another story, but even then, many are managed by VK alumni still, such as MuCC, SID, A9, SuG, etc... And have their own establishments to run things through, such as Extasy, Vamprose, Defrock, etc... By average, I say VK is more involved with itself than many other areas of music.

 

When those kids grow up and lose their drive, as after years of fighting against this nebulous problem they watch it shift into something new but no less harmful, they give up, slip into the routine, and become working salary men that can't be identified. It's an anomaly that just is, and that anomaly happens to make noise that we like to listen to.

 

 

 

Sounds more like a scene out of a movie than what could be called the truth. IMO you wrote a great piece over-all, but please understand I would like to point out what I disagree with.

 

To pigeonhole visual kei into anything else misses the political and cultural significance that caused it's birth.

tl;dr - Visual kei is the Japanese "hippie culture" of the 60's, with no Vietnam War in sight to bring it to an end.

 

 

Again, I disagree. We could sit down and look at the Hippie culture, and how different it is, and how there were few actual Hippies leading the show, while many major bands, and even Eric Clapton changed their look just to fit and lead this scene, same as The Who dressed as Mods but weren`t, same as in truth, Sex Pistols dressed Punk to be successful within that field, and kept Sid Vicious on stage even with an unplugged bass since he was popular with the fans.

 

I could also talk to people who were Hippies, who have no semblance to that time now, and were simply Hippies because it was the thing for them to do... And it was much more `major`. Despite big bands, Visual Kei is still a niche, and you can`t just enter it, you have to either listen to or make the music.

 

I could make the comparison to people`s view of Tentacle Rape...

Some people see it, and say oh, those crazy Japanese, or say it is caused by their repression from sex... etc... In reality, it is a niche in Japan, not a huge thing, and it is caused by the censoring in the industry due to the widespread availability of it to everyone, including children, and how even salary-men read it on the train.

 

So not only are many people`s outside view incorrect (as may be my own as I do not live in Japan full time), but it actually contrary to an extent where people assume the opposite of what is going on, as if you look at Japanese things, sex, violence etc is much more available to you, and people still say they are too repressed.

 

 Overall, I think one of the problems I have with people, and it isn`t a ferocious problem that I fight over outside of this thread, but it is a reason I just don`t see it the same way as other people, is that one way or another, we are all trying to put things into a box, or put water into a cup to give it form. What shape is a river? Really, we can try and put into some form or definition depending on what vantage point you look at it from, but at what point in our advancing societies did we find a need for it to be anything other than the shape of a river itself?

[Bear 1817]

But if one consider visual kei a genre, then that also means that one consider Schwarze Stein, Versailles and Lynch to be playing the the same type of music, which they obviously ain't. You have one electronica band, one metal band and one rock band. Are these guys really playing the same type of music? Because in 2014 genres are based on the music they play, not the way they look or what they sing about. And I am having a hard time putting these three into the same genre.

[Guest Magatsu]

Visual Kei only tells you that the band dress up different. more over the top more girly.

but it tells you nothing about what a band is playing. now days it can be freaking everything.

years ago it was more rock and a bit of metal.  and now it can be even pop music.

 

but okay to answer your questions:

 

Questions:

 

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

more a scene, because it has to do with the looks only.

 

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

nope because they can look like little girls but play brutal metal XD

 

3: Do the looks matter to you? If the same band dressed in Jeans and T-shirts with short hair, would you be as interested?

If their music is good yes. if their music is crap I wouldn't even listen to them even if they where dressed up visual.

 

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

Sub-Genre thing is so idiotic.  rock is rock and metal is metal and pop is pop for me.
 

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

Why should I? if a band calls themselfs visual then they are visual. XD

 

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

Nope, then they are casual.

[miyuu 40]

 

 

 

So not only are many people`s outside view incorrect (as may be my own as I do not live in Japan full time), but it actually contrary to an extent where people assume the opposite of what is going on, as if you look at Japanese things, sex, violence etc is much more available to you, and people still say they are too repressed.

 

 

 

 

no they say they are repressed because

i think  they tend to censor it or avoid  it so much  in "maistream" everyday life and media. so it exists and thrives  as  reaction to this repression but  as a cult or underground.

when in europe for example they accept it more in everyday life but it doesn't really exist underground at this level.

as result  you can find so more of it in japan but only underground. while in everyday life(media) are more prude. opposed to europe or america 's everyday media.

this this my impression  but then i can't be sure since i don't live there.

 

 

 

i'll  answer the questions of the thread later

[Zeus 7997]

What is the context here? Also, I would like to note that people inside of the industry and Japan seem to actually use less of these contexts and classifications than the fans and critics.

There are many bands in Japan, and in the past, such as easy examples I will use including AC/DC, who didn`t want to be called Metal, or Hard Rock, they just said they were a Rock band. Def Leppard also called a Metal, and Hair Metal band, they said they were just a Rock band. Writers and fans put labels such as Prog Rock, and Southern Rock on things... Etc...

To the bands it is all Rock, same as to me, it`s all Visual Kei. Maybe even the terms Genre and Movement or Scene are too restrictive as you say.

The context here is if a band is considered visual kei or not by everyone else. You say it yourself later:

 

IMO, much as more experienced fans gain traction discerning the popular opinion of what is VK, you also either gain, or always have the ability to distinguish between a knock-off from another country...

I'm all about forming individual opinions and stick to them, but later on you substitute my open-ended definition for visual kei with your open-ended definition for visual kei, which leads us back to what I said before: you can't define visual kei. My definition strictly defines visual kei in terms of it's roots and what perpetuates it. It doesn't get into stylistic differences or shared commonalities because that gets ugly and I would contradict myself if I did that. It's grown too many tentacles and siphons from too many influences in order for a meaningful definition in that sense to exist.

However, you can't use words without a definition. Even if genre, movement, scene are too restrictive to describe what visual kei is, we need to relegate it to something. And as I've explained why it can't be a genre and it can't be a movement and it can't be a scene, I don't see what's wrong with calling it a paradoxical anomaly of Japanese culture. It's not like I'll actually go around and say that to people - I'm perfectly fine with leaving it as a scene - but that's what it is. For as popular as visual kei is around the world and for many bands that have tried to emulate the style and the scene, no band and no country has succeeded? Why is that?

 

I don`t mind what other people call it, since they are describing their experience. As it is their experience, they use their own terms... But does something have to be seen as this kind of rock? And does Visual Kei have to be acknowledged this way as well?

The problem with subjectivity is that you can view something from so subjective an angle that it becomes pointless to discuss. If we leave the definition of visual kei up to experience and how people feel it should be, we run (once again) right back into the same problem that I highlighted in my first gargantuan post: we can talk for ten pages about what visual kei is and never get to the root of it. I'm all for letting people think what they want, but there has to be a common point that we all agree on - otherwise we will never get a definition for what visual kei is. From reading this thread, enough of us agree that visual kei is a scene for that to be our "common point". That's enough for me.

 

For example, if a new band comes out and describes itself as Visual Kei... What are they saying? If a friend not familiar of Visual Kei or Japanese things at all asks you what they mean... What would all you guys say? If someone asked you what is Visual Kei?

 

I`d say a form of Japanese Rock music based that came from the band having their own look. It`s a pretty open-ended description, but to me, Visual Kei can`t be described as much as it just has to be witnessed. Then everyone comes up with their own idea of what Visual Kei is, which is nice...

That sounds like an exact definition of what a scene would be. Music that is more than just a type of music, which revolves around an all-encompassing lifestyle.

 

In Zess`s opinion it is a strictly Japanese problem (ad-libbing here so pardon if I slightly twist the intent of that sentence) but I`d like to ask you guys... Really why?

Quite a few things:

High pressure to conform

Intense pressure to do well

High suicide rate and high clinical depression rate

Declining birth rate since young people stopped having sex because they see no point in it

Lost 10/20 Years

Corruption (most recent good example of this is Fukushima)

There are more things, but I feel like you've got enough so far. I'll also be referring to these later.

 

IMO people all over the world find Visual Kei, etc... And love it, relate to it, etc... But for all the Japanese things out there, we really never get to their level at their own game while Rap was seen as becoming of a particular people, culture, etc... Yet it has sprung up everywhere, and some argue the best rapper is white...

America is one of the most dominant cultural countries of the world. Japan is lower on the totem pole. Rap and visual kei are also not on equal footing. You can take rap music and transform it so that it fits the ideals of the country it's being ported to. You can't take visual kei and transform it, mostly because we still haven't gotten to a working definition of what that is, so how do you know what to take? What to leave? What to change without destroying the core essence of visual kei? And on top of all of that, there are plenty of places in the world that are not receptive to things such as effeminate men, who would resist visual kei because it's outside of their comfort zones. Two way different things that have different obstacles to overcome.

 

Going off the sound I would say they are all Rock, and even stuff from LM.C and Uwakimono is visual kei sounding to me. That`s just my view though... Luna Sea is the predecessor of Alice Nine, and so forth... Kuroyume goes to Dir En Grey.... Which goes to Gazette... then begets Mejibray. Not so simple, but it fits...

But if one consider visual kei a genre, then that also means that one consider Schwarze Stein, Versailles and Lynch to be playing the the same type of music, which they obviously ain't. You have one electronica band, one metal band and one rock band. Are these guys really playing the same type of music? Because in 2014 genres are based on the music they play, not the way they look or what they sing about. And I am having a hard time putting these three into the same genre.

[Zeus 7997]

Not necessarily, many famous VK bands, including some of the originators had enough, or more than enough money. Yoshiki started his own label, recruited Luna Sea and Glay, then helped Dir En Grey get started.

Right. That's four bands. The visual kei scene is small, but not that small. The amount of bands that disband due to lack of money also say otherwise.

I think this is subjective. If we look at the origins of the looks and why different important bands got into VK, it doesn`t seem this way, it seems like more of a personal expression on a person-to-person basis. Over-all, you still get many important bands presenting themselves as polite, well-raised members of society, whether that stands in real-life, I don`t know, but they still present themselves that way much of the time. Is it really a system that many of them are fighting?

No. Japan has one of the most homogenous countries in the world with a complete and total culture of conformity. In fact the Japanese have a saying that reflects it: "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down". I am no expert on Japanese culture, but the writing on the wall is clear.

I think this is condescending and biased to be honest. We are assuming something and then criticizing based on an assumption here.

No, it's a rewording of the conformity paradox. Visual kei in and of itself is very conformist, which is ironic considering it is widely believed to have started as a movement for freedom of expression.

Contrary to this belief, would say the rest of the world is on average much more conformist that Japan. Due to the respect, politeness etc... And tough competition in school and work people like to put it into this box but if you look at how much freedom the people actually have, and how much more you will be accepted their for your differences, I would disagree.

I don't think so.

Also, the Japanese Bubble burst in the 90`s, after VK had taken off, and bands continued growing until around 2000, when the economy began turning around more.

Lost 10/20 Years

Again, to say this, I think you pigeon-hole VK worse than just calling it a genre or movement, whatever... I don`t think this info stands or has a verifiable source to back the claims, and also would like to add that many establishments within the VK scene, such as labels, venues, etc... Are run by VK alumni... Going major is another story, but even then, many are managed by VK alumni still, such as MuCC, SID, A9, SuG, etc... And have their own establishments to run things through, such as Extasy, Vamprose, Defrock, etc... By average, I say VK is more involved with itself than many other areas of music.

Actually, I would have expected someone to say that I've said much of nothing by not defining what visual kei is and instead indirectly defining what it is by it's constituents. I haven't pigeonholed visual kei at all because I refuse to define it.

[hiroki 5521]

No, it's a rewording of the conformity paradox. Visual kei in and of itself is very conformist, which is ironic considering it is widely believed to have started as a movement for freedom of expression.

 

Why do you say that "visual kei in and of itself is very conformist"? I'm genuinely intrigued by this and not trying to be an ass

 

The reason I asked is because you've been saying that visual kei resists definition (which I agree). My own take is quite similar to yours actually - that visual kei is kind of a negative definition, that can only be defined over and against the "other". But in saying that visual kei is conformist - does that not suggest that there's some kind of essential "core" (presumably some basic principles to which every or at least most bands conform) that can be incontestably pinned down and labelled "visual kei"?

[kai_desu 340]

This topic has been brought up many times before here.

The problem here is that "Visual Kei" overlaps two sensory categories. What we see, and what we hear.

 

What we see, is Visual Kei. It helps here to actually look at the Japanese.

 

ヴィジュアル系

 

Obviously ヴィジュアル is simply "Visual" in Katakana form.

系 on the other hand, means "system; lineage; group"

 

Visual System, Visual Lineage, Visual Group. I've seen/heard it translated as Visual Style as well.

 

What we hear, is their chosen style of music (be it rock, metal, pop, etc.)

 

They are two separate things. Now, I think because the majority of visual kei bands go down the route of rock/metal, that it kinda all blurs into one as many bands who define themselves as being "Visual Kei" also have similar music styles - and thus, people have learned to simply lump bands into a Visual Kei Genre.

 

In the end though, it's simply a label. The term "Visual Kei" was originally used as almost a name for the bands that came up with it. It was a means to separate and distinguish themselves from other bands as being something different.

[coffee000 14]

Why do you say that "visual kei in and of itself is very conformist"? I'm genuinely intrigued by this and not trying to be an ass

 

The reason I asked is because you've been saying that visual kei resists definition (which I agree). My own take is quite similar to yours actually - that visual kei is kind of a negative definition, that can only be defined over and against the "other". But in saying that visual kei is conformist - does that not suggest that there's some kind of essential "core" (presumably some basic principles to which every or at least most bands conform) that can be incontestably pinned down and labelled "visual kei"?

 

I think Zess means that a lot of bands sound and look similar to each other. That's truth. But it is also truth that a lot of bands within a scene or movement in pop/rock music history had similar sound. That's not limited to Japan actually. It happens a lot in the West. I wouldn't say that vk itself is conformist. Nowadays, it's all about who can market itself best (that's probably the "core" you talked about). Having a similar sound or look to someone successful is one of the ways of trying to market itself. If that's viewed not successful, some people will try something different. I think some people are thinking too deep about visual kei while it's actually not that much. It's similar to the (late night) anime and otaku subculture, with obvious escapism element for the audience. But at the same time that doesn't mean there aren't art, creativity and expression elements within these subcultures. These elements are mixed.

[miyuu 40]

good point. i mean i am thinking why we have the feeling in vkei of conformism and why not in rock generally.

i think because of the copying.while they want to be different from majority and they are.
they still seem afraid to be really innovative or unusual in ideas among themselves. or be themselves.
the majority prefer to copy or will follow trends. and actually noone seems to critique that  or care about it.

while for example in rock everyone has a rock style. but they can critique very hardly people who copy. it's not really acceptable in the same way.
 they support &  promote more uniqueness as a way of thinking and acting ,nomatter what they do. this is the impression i am having while in vkei sometimes it feels that even the actual marketing strategy is copying.

 

(i am thinking my problem wasn't that they were comformist in metal etc scene ,they can put limits in genres. but then create 1000 sub genres who don't fit the standards. and fight about it. i think they are more judgemental than conformists as a negative.)