CAT5

Ah thanks for the insight, I'm sorry I didn't see it until now.  Let's just say this issue has been something on my mind for personal reasons, though I can see circumstances like @CAT5 where forgiveness is due. 
 
I won't go into much detail, but with certain events coming up it's on my mind again considering some events going on in my life. My mom thinks that they should be just forgive them and make up with the abuser, it's hard to convey to her that it'll probably never happen as he continues to play victim and not see the damage he has done. 

I however have seen the damage he has done, and I myself don't know if I can ever bring myself to forgive him for that. As for the victim, they're in a much happier place, getting married and buying a new house; they're definitely on the healing path without the need to have them in their life.

I do want to clarify my stance a bit, so ppl don't get it twisted or misunderstand me. I take a Hebraic/Biblical approach to forgiveness, and from a Hebraic stance, everything requires an action (or actions) - so forgiveness isn't just some disembodied emotion or an intellectual exercise. For true forgiveness to take place, it must first be asked for. This seems like common sense, but it's hella important.
 
Secondly, true forgiveness requires restitution or restoration. So if you break my bike or something, then you can't give me a donut in return and expect me to forgive you. I have every right to withhold my forgiveness in that regard. Also, in terms of restoration, you have to go over and above in restoring whatever you took away or did damage to so that there are no hard feelings. So for example's sake: if someone steals your car, you're gonna be PISSED - but if that person restores not only the care they stole, but also buys you several more cars, then you're gonna be much more apt to not only forgive, but also to forget.
 
Thirdly, forgiveness requires repentance  - which essentially means to turn from your way. Cuz it makes absolutely no sense to ask forgiveness, and then to restore, only to do the same thing again. You haven't turned from your way in that case. You have to prove that you've turned a new leaf and aren't going to do whatever you did again. So forgiveness is neither free nor simply emotional, but it's a process that absolutely requires action.
 
This is forgiveness in its ideal state. But how many of us are living in a community or a country where the law is Torah? Where the law is righteousness itself? None of us are. So essentially, most of us are dealing with folks that don't give a fuck about forgiveness, or righteousness, or the evil that they do. So what do you do? What do you do when there's no path to forgiveness? What do you do when justice and restoration is impossible?
 
Well, it depends on your perspective and understanding of the world itself. For me, I understand that our creator is just and loves balance, and he will not be mocked - so everyone eventually reaps what they sow. This is where I feel bad for people that are overcome by wickedness because they often have no idea of the path that they're on. That, and people who are caught up in wickedness can change their ways. They're still gonna reap what they sowed, but they can still change their ways at some point. I'm proof of that myself. So I have empathy there, because i know i've been in darkness too. And still wrestle with it everyday.
 
So to close, no one is truly required to forgive, unless the requirements for forgiveness have been met. However, when those requirements cannot be met for whatever reason, for me personally, I find it best to fully experience the emotions associated with and let it go. To heal, essentially. Now that doesn't mean that i'm still going to fuck with whoever  transgressed against me, but at the same time, i'm not gonna let that person's actions weigh down my heart, and send me off into the kind of downwards spiral that @nekkichi mentioned.

In my experience, forgiveness is a process and doesn't happen over night. I think it's ultimately  most healthy to forgive, but it can't be forced...like if you're angry...or sad...or whatever...feel all of that completely with no judgment, but don't stay stuck in those emotions. You'll end up bogging yourself down and staying chained to a dead situation.
 
And yeah, forgiving someone doesn't mean you condone what they did. Not at all.
 
One thing that's helped me to forgive all of those who have hurt or betrayed me is #1 I realized that i'm more than capable of doing some fucked up shit too (tho I actively try NOT to). And  #2 people who abuse/hurt others, whether intentionally or not, are all operating from a place of darkness/blindness/ignorance. And that's a very sad place to be in. You have to be in a very dark place to feel like it's ok to hurt others in any way. I feel bad for people like that, and I've learned to have compassion on them.
 
It's all too easy to become overwhelmed by evil in this world, and there are a lot of convincing reasons to choose evil. The opposite is often more difficult, but it's far more rewarding.
 
As the Messiah said, "forgive them; for they know not what they do".

@nekkichi - good call with Rentrer en soi. The only real time I remember there being much discord with them is with the release of their S/T album, which was honestly merited given how jarring their change in sound was. I can't remember anyone just straight-up hatin on them tho.
 
also u trippin bout 9goats too. don't blaspheme #artkei like that 🤣

@Peace Heavy mk II - you think Dimlim and 9goats sucks? Wow, plz unfriend me and unfollow me right now. In fact, wherez my banhammer...

Other bands just don't get the rocket attached to them quite like say, Mejibray did and then the negative response is also quieter. For a band like that I'd go ahead and say that Kizu is doing a lot better for itself in the western fandom than a lot of the bands from the Royz era that felt like were going to go somewhere. I can't believe there was a time when even a band like Nega got a lot of people talking every time something was released, and almost like 50% of it must've been nega ( ha ) tive.

I wouldn't count older bands for this one even if some of us were already around ( Kagerou and Deadman. Both the scene is different and we are older which changes things a lot ) nor bands that obviously started sucking hard later on and causing people to turn on them like Mucc and Girugamesh, but even to this day the few who stuck by D'espairsray even after their mortifyingly awful fourth album is beyond me ( and anyone who likes anything off of that album ought to stop listening to music altogether. ) However, I'd also say 9Goats Blackout was decently popular in the western fandom and the handful of people that didn't like them didn't bother reminding people about it all the time. I guess Moran as well and some Ains stuff, but I'd also say that apart from Grieva they didn't really arouse any feelings in the opposition and were therefore largely left alone to disband in their own time. 

I make fun of kagrra, only because it gets a reaction out of people here and I like attention
 
 
never actually listened to them since I already like Kiryu

@Peace Heavy mk II - you think Dimlim and 9goats sucks? Wow, plz unfriend me and unfollow me right now. In fact, wherez my banhammer...

seremedy /s
 
rentrer en soi (during active years, not satsuki solo fuckery)
 
merry
 
I don't remember versatilles being hated on, but I lost interest in them by the time their 2nd album arrived
 
Luna Sea is either irrelevant or got some net stan respect idk,
 
kagerou?
 
that's just the stuff I immediately think about, there's also at least idk guniw tools that seemingly don't have haters
 
9 goats and mago always sucked ass 💔 but their pretentious-ass stans created some false royalty aura around their bullshit music

@Peace Heavy mk II - you think Dimlim and 9goats sucks? Wow, plz unfriend me and unfollow me right now. In fact, wherez my banhammer...

I'm the 1% that think Dimlim sucks, same for 9goats + Deadman (they had two good songs).
 
 
D'espairsRay is pretty universally liked, except by Bear. 
 
Phantasmagoria were mega popular, but I think the nostalgia was kind of tarnished by Kisaki's questionable business practices (1,000's of rereleases and revivals) + criminal behavior (tax evasion, alleged pedophile, etc). 
 
Malice Mizer still has a very strong following, and the only people I've seen dislike them was that cunt Jrock NYC + someone with brain worms who saw them as a threat to Lycaon (????).
 
For what it's worth, I've literally never seen someone complain about the following:
 
Shazna, Baiser, Pierrot

I had to move away from everything related to bible and christianity for variety of reasons, but an iteration of 109th psalm got me interesting, very satisfying results in the past.

I do want to clarify my stance a bit, so ppl don't get it twisted or misunderstand me. I take a Hebraic/Biblical approach to forgiveness, and from a Hebraic stance, everything requires an action (or actions) - so forgiveness isn't just some disembodied emotion or an intellectual exercise. For true forgiveness to take place, it must first be asked for. This seems like common sense, but it's hella important.
 
Secondly, true forgiveness requires restitution or restoration. So if you break my bike or something, then you can't give me a donut in return and expect me to forgive you. I have every right to withhold my forgiveness in that regard. Also, in terms of restoration, you have to go over and above in restoring whatever you took away or did damage to so that there are no hard feelings. So for example's sake: if someone steals your car, you're gonna be PISSED - but if that person restores not only the care they stole, but also buys you several more cars, then you're gonna be much more apt to not only forgive, but also to forget.
 
Thirdly, forgiveness requires repentance  - which essentially means to turn from your way. Cuz it makes absolutely no sense to ask forgiveness, and then to restore, only to do the same thing again. You haven't turned from your way in that case. You have to prove that you've turned a new leaf and aren't going to do whatever you did again. So forgiveness is neither free nor simply emotional, but it's a process that absolutely requires action.
 
This is forgiveness in its ideal state. But how many of us are living in a community or a country where the law is Torah? Where the law is righteousness itself? None of us are. So essentially, most of us are dealing with folks that don't give a fuck about forgiveness, or righteousness, or the evil that they do. So what do you do? What do you do when there's no path to forgiveness? What do you do when justice and restoration is impossible?
 
Well, it depends on your perspective and understanding of the world itself. For me, I understand that our creator is just and loves balance, and he will not be mocked - so everyone eventually reaps what they sow. This is where I feel bad for people that are overcome by wickedness because they often have no idea of the path that they're on. That, and people who are caught up in wickedness can change their ways. They're still gonna reap what they sowed, but they can still change their ways at some point. I'm proof of that myself. So I have empathy there, because i know i've been in darkness too. And still wrestle with it everyday.
 
So to close, no one is truly required to forgive, unless the requirements for forgiveness have been met. However, when those requirements cannot be met for whatever reason, for me personally, I find it best to fully experience the emotions associated with and let it go. To heal, essentially. Now that doesn't mean that i'm still going to fuck with whoever  transgressed against me, but at the same time, i'm not gonna let that person's actions weigh down my heart, and send me off into the kind of downwards spiral that @nekkichi mentioned.

I do want to clarify my stance a bit, so ppl don't get it twisted or misunderstand me. I take a Hebraic/Biblical approach to forgiveness, and from a Hebraic stance, everything requires an action (or actions) - so forgiveness isn't just some disembodied emotion or an intellectual exercise. For true forgiveness to take place, it must first be asked for. This seems like common sense, but it's hella important.
 
Secondly, true forgiveness requires restitution or restoration. So if you break my bike or something, then you can't give me a donut in return and expect me to forgive you. I have every right to withhold my forgiveness in that regard. Also, in terms of restoration, you have to go over and above in restoring whatever you took away or did damage to so that there are no hard feelings. So for example's sake: if someone steals your car, you're gonna be PISSED - but if that person restores not only the care they stole, but also buys you several more cars, then you're gonna be much more apt to not only forgive, but also to forget.
 
Thirdly, forgiveness requires repentance  - which essentially means to turn from your way. Cuz it makes absolutely no sense to ask forgiveness, and then to restore, only to do the same thing again. You haven't turned from your way in that case. You have to prove that you've turned a new leaf and aren't going to do whatever you did again. So forgiveness is neither free nor simply emotional, but it's a process that absolutely requires action.
 
This is forgiveness in its ideal state. But how many of us are living in a community or a country where the law is Torah? Where the law is righteousness itself? None of us are. So essentially, most of us are dealing with folks that don't give a fuck about forgiveness, or righteousness, or the evil that they do. So what do you do? What do you do when there's no path to forgiveness? What do you do when justice and restoration is impossible?
 
Well, it depends on your perspective and understanding of the world itself. For me, I understand that our creator is just and loves balance, and he will not be mocked - so everyone eventually reaps what they sow. This is where I feel bad for people that are overcome by wickedness because they often have no idea of the path that they're on. That, and people who are caught up in wickedness can change their ways. They're still gonna reap what they sowed, but they can still change their ways at some point. I'm proof of that myself. So I have empathy there, because i know i've been in darkness too. And still wrestle with it everyday.
 
So to close, no one is truly required to forgive, unless the requirements for forgiveness have been met. However, when those requirements cannot be met for whatever reason, for me personally, I find it best to fully experience the emotions associated with and let it go. To heal, essentially. Now that doesn't mean that i'm still going to fuck with whoever  transgressed against me, but at the same time, i'm not gonna let that person's actions weigh down my heart, and send me off into the kind of downwards spiral that @nekkichi mentioned.

I've just read somewhere this week that not getting proper justice on abusive/unjust situations will eventually invite a snowballing sequence of same events in one's life, and while I don't necessarily agree with it, looking back on my own life it is true with a good amount of people.
 
repressing hurt feelings because someone's brain worms only leave them with the love&light&free forgiveness paradigm doesn't sound right for me either.

In my experience, forgiveness is a process and doesn't happen over night. I think it's ultimately  most healthy to forgive, but it can't be forced...like if you're angry...or sad...or whatever...feel all of that completely with no judgment, but don't stay stuck in those emotions. You'll end up bogging yourself down and staying chained to a dead situation.
 
And yeah, forgiving someone doesn't mean you condone what they did. Not at all.
 
One thing that's helped me to forgive all of those who have hurt or betrayed me is #1 I realized that i'm more than capable of doing some fucked up shit too (tho I actively try NOT to). And  #2 people who abuse/hurt others, whether intentionally or not, are all operating from a place of darkness/blindness/ignorance. And that's a very sad place to be in. You have to be in a very dark place to feel like it's ok to hurt others in any way. I feel bad for people like that, and I've learned to have compassion on them.
 
It's all too easy to become overwhelmed by evil in this world, and there are a lot of convincing reasons to choose evil. The opposite is often more difficult, but it's far more rewarding.
 
As the Messiah said, "forgive them; for they know not what they do".

It's healthier to recognise your feelings and be at peace with them imo, regardless of what they are. 

Can't speak for everyone, but trying to ignore or put aside your feelings is always a stopgap measure. While forgiveness can be one method, there are many other ways to confront your feelings; I think confrontation (internal or external) has to be one of the steps to healing.
 
Also recognition/realization > rationalization. 

This has def. been plug'd or dub'd, probably by @CAT5 b/c I remember this. Otoboke Beaver is on Spotify, but Midori is region-locked so it's been a while since I've listened to her.
 
If you want to crank the screaming/"vocal strain" up to 11 the whole song, akai kurage might be of interest.
 
 

@CAT5 - I'm pretty behind the curve in the J-Indie scene 😂I feel like you probably already do, but have you heard of Otoboke Beaver? Another lovely J-Girl group. Their album/compilation that they dropped this year is in my top 2019 releases.

Midori is classic amongst J-indie heads!!!

Midori is classic amongst J-indie heads!!!

thank you! ❤️ a few hiccups occurred but I ended the day on a good note ^^