Unclean vocals and none singing voices

[acbpn 434]

All the bands you mentioned I've ever listened to but I think akane of D.I.D. is the best, not other people. that's all. though Yuki of Lustknot has a unique squeal.

I'm originally a fan of those extreme metal bands too, and I often listen to technical metal bands like Nile, Dying Fetus and so on. but when I touched Para:noir several years ago, it did strike me. When Para:noir became D.I.D., akane stroke me and lagged me into the space of satan I think. only D.I.D. made me sick, not others. but I love those vk bands with great unclean vocals too and I always dig some new ones.

for me, just like akane ever said, "if there's no unclean vocal in my band, it'll be boring."

[acbpn 434]

well, for Wing Works, if Ryosuke reduce more autotune, maybe I'd like to be a good fan of him but not now. I don't like bands with too much electronic. not everyone likes Breathe Carolina.

[nullmoon 784]

@blackdoll - how is Dead Blaze bad?

[blackdoll 907]

@aoi mochi the screams sound retared,

[blackdoll 907]

@acbpn infinite∞numbness (re-recording) is his best, and i want to die are his best

 

[RpgRiser 70]

Best

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzYUZ5hIEZ0

 

 

Pretty good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6k7fXxiqJY

 

 

Good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLlvfMpMb2Y

 

 

Bad(I don't like his growls)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSPTQQ3jJcM

[acbpn 434]

 

@acbpn infinite∞numbness (re-recording) is his best, and i want to die are his best

 

 

you're right, and other epic for me are nihilism and code No. [13], of course from Paranoid Personality.

and I love Keita (CodeRebirth) and Ichi (GHOSE) too, they really have potential of unclean vocal. and the 2 bands are awesome.

[acbpn 434]

and as you see my profile image, I'm a fan of R-shitei xD

[acbpn 434]

but in fact, I disagree with "US bands are boring" this point. I've been a metal fan for over 12 years, most of my favorite songs are from north american bands, I didn't find that boring until now. and my first touch is thrash metal and early metalcore (I meant hardcore plus heavy metal not metalcore nowadays, eg. Hatebreed, As I Lay Dying)

everyone has their own taste, everyone has freedom to choose what to like and dislike. just like I dislike use of autotune but many oshare kei bands use much autotune, so I don't like oshare kei. that's what I want to say. the same as techniques of unclean vocal, someone loves growl, others love scream or squeal.

[acbpn 434]

the most talented bands for me are who did an innovation in a certain circle, not beyond this circle. everyone could do sth sth beyond a certain range.

vk bands did things in the certain circle of rock, well maybe pop. but they've been already beyond the circle of certain genres. my personal opinion only.

 

btw, black metal that Pandabear mentioned often use shriek I think. but depressive black metal use another kind of shriek.

[JukaForever 758]

I am pretty sure people can edit their posts in this forum.

 

*hint**hint* "it's right next to the MultiQuote button which can also be used to quote 'multiple' posts" *hint**hint*

[Bear 1817]

just like I dislike use of autotune but many oshare kei bands use much autotune, so I don't like oshare kei.

 

I'll never get things like this. You dislike every single oshare kei bands because some uses autotune? That doesn't make sense. One can use autotune tastefully, so you don't have to sound like T-Pain or anything and go full retard with the whole shit.

 

 

I don't mind growling or harsh vocals (never heard harsh vocals in any VK band though) as long as it fits the music. That's the only thing I care about. It needs to fit the music. And in the VK scene there's good growlers and bad growlers, just like in the rest of the music scene in the world.

 

And I don't get the whole "they shouldn't growl because they don't have the training" thing that some have said in this thread. One needs training to growl and use harsh vocals? When did someone need any training to do this shit?

[acbpn 434]

I'll never get things like this. You dislike every single oshare kei bands because some uses autotune? That doesn't make sense. One can use autotune tastefully, so you don't have to sound like T-Pain or anything and go full retard with the whole shit.

 

 

I don't mind growling or harsh vocals (never heard harsh vocals in any VK band though) as long as it fits the music. That's the only thing I care about. It needs to fit the music. And in the VK scene there's good growlers and bad growlers, just like in the rest of the music scene in the world.

 

And I don't get the whole "they shouldn't growl because they don't have the training" thing that some have said in this thread. One needs training to growl and use harsh vocals? When did someone need any training to do this shit?

maybe I should say "oshare kei bands hardly ever use unclean vocals and too much autotune appears so I don't like oshare kei".

well, unclean vocals needn't to train? lmfao

[Bear 1817]

well, unclean vocals needn't to train? lmfao

 

Do they? As far as I know they didn't have any training in the 80's when they started with growls and harsh vocals. I feel pretty confident that the likes of Quorthon, Scott Carlson, Lee Dorrian, Stevo, Chris Reifert and so on didn't have any training. I'm sure they just wrote some fast music and went to their  rehearsel place and started screaming their guts out.

 

Or is this "unclean" you guys are speaking of soemthing new? Or a different type of screaming? I've never heard about it so I might have missed that. I just thought it was something that included "screaming/shouting/growling/shrieking/whatever".

[Karma’s Hat 3107]

There was a thread of similar nature... 

 

http://www.monochrome-heaven.com/topic/2556-most-brutal-visual-kei-band/

 

nvr4get

[acbpn 434]

Do they? As far as I know they didn't have any training in the 80's when they started with growls and harsh vocals. I feel pretty confident that the likes of Quorthon, Scott Carlson, Lee Dorrian, Stevo, Chris Reifert and so on didn't have any training. I'm sure they just wrote some fast music and went to their  rehearsel place and started screaming their guts out.

 

Or is this "unclean" you guys are speaking of soemthing new? Or a different type of screaming? I've never heard about it so I might have missed that. I just thought it was something that included "screaming/shouting/growling/shrieking/whatever".

maybe the old artists needn't train as you think, but nowadays vocalists are meant to protect their vocal cords, as far as I know there are several old artists who did unclean vocals had already hurt their throats and retired.

unclean vocal instead "screaming" is sure, there're many kinds of "screaming". vocal techniques need to get innovation too. use tongue, thorat, lung, airflow and so on. we live in a modern society, not the same as 1970's or 1980's and 1990's. things are getting changed everyday. just like many people don't think "djent" is a new genre now. that's also the reason why old school and neo school partys always argue about genre differences.

mmm, as you see my words, I'm a neo school supporter. perhaps the oldest era of music that I could receive is 1990's.

[relentless 254]

 

And I don't get the whole "they shouldn't growl because they don't have the training" thing that some have said in this thread. One needs training to growl and use harsh vocals? When did someone need any training to do this shit?

 

A professional vocalist most of the time will have vocal training to minimize singing's impact on their vocal cords. It's exactly the same way with gutturals and high screams -- there is legitimate technique that is employed to minimize said impact. It also allows the greatest use of the voice to not only protect the vocal cords; but to maximize the sound as well.

 

Many VK vocalists go into screaming from copying other bands (Sadie and 12012 in regards to Dir en grey, even Dir en grey in regards to many Western metal bands) without ever considering the legitimate impact that improper screams can have. Kyo has had a history of vocal problems, and now Wataru from 12012 is experiencing difficulties. Kyo doesn't take vocal lessons, and from the way Wataru sounds, he doesn't either.

 

Finally, it's more or less expected that a musician knows what they're doing before they start doing something. You would expect a guitarist in a death metal band to be able to play that kind of music (or even on its most basic level, you'd expect that musician to be competent in performance and theory). The same standard is applied to vocalists: There are techniques for singing, falsetto's, and screams. If a vocalist does not employ those techniques, or they simply do not have proper training to be doing what they're trying to make their voice do, it becomes an absolute mess.

 

The likes of Wataru are competent when it comes to growls and any other extra ordinary thing they're trying to do; but a majority of the time it's not very good.

[Bear 1817]

I am well aware of that, but one can still manage without it, something which a billion vocalists have proven through the years. I doubt all these early extreme metal vocalists did any form of training (just to take an examle), and many of those are still going strong today, 20-25 years after they started growling/whatever. Over the years I am sure a lot of them picked up tricks here and there, but I wouldn't call that training.

 

My point though, which obviously got a bit lost or didn't come through earlier, is that you don't need any kind of training to become a great vocalist or not to damage your vocal chords. Yeah, getting damage to your vocal chords happens to people without any kind of training, but it also happens to vocalists with training, both amateur training and formal, professional training. It wasn't any more to it than that.

 

 

And a lot of artists didn't have a clue to what they were doing when they started out, and a lot of them released albums that today are regarded as classics. Legendary Hellhammer and Sepultura are a few that comes to mind. Hellhammer barely knew which way to hold their instruments, and it was sloppy as fuck, and Sepultura didn't even bother tuning their guitars properly for Morbid Visions, which is regarded as a masteriece. You don't always need to know how to play your instruments very good, or sing well. It all comes down to the music being played to be honest.

[Karma’s Hat 3107]

And to add to the post above: Stop lumping all metal together as if the same trends apply to every single movement therein. 

 

I can tell you this much; the endless bickering about vocal technique and other acrobatics is not really present in the underground, while it seems prominent characteristic of the metalcore scene. Go to the youtube videos of Bring Me The Horizon ( cheap example, but you get the point ) and whatever have you, and you are bound to find all sorts of wank how good or not the vocalist is live, and how this and that guy losing their voice. This does not happen that much - if at all - in extreme metal, and the sloppiness and rawness of it that was inherited from hardcore is still widely appreciated among its fans. Go complain about vocal technique of some vocalist to the NWN forums and you'll most likely be laughed at. And I'm not discrediting technique, I'm just saying that it's not entirely necessary.

 

My point being here is that "maybe the old artists needn't train as you think, but nowadays vocalists are meant to protect their vocal cords"   Is simply not true. There are new and old extreme metal vocalists who have nailed the technique and there are also those that have not, and not many people pay any mind since the focus is on the ends and not the means. Deep as fuck growls do fit chuggy emocore way better than the rough performance from Live In Leipzig ever would have, and vice versa. Someone might not like the vocal chord destroying sloppy screams of bandomen X, but there's most likely someone out there that does, and whether there is any "musical quality" to whatever the said vocalist is doing, is an individual case-by-case debate in itself. 

[DogManX 179]

Bear, your original comment was

 

>> And I don't get the whole "they shouldn't growl because they don't have the training" thing that some have said in this thread. One needs training to growl and use harsh vocals? When did someone need any training to do this shit?

 

If you don't know "shit", don't talk "shit", easy as that. Growling, screaming etc. of any sort needs special training to not fuck your voice up. Every professional will tell you that. VK vocalists are usually no professionals, either not on the screaming part, or on no parts. Their screams or growls not only sound like total shit, they also damaged their vocal chords convincingly often now. Growling legends from old times are not so many in numbers, and for a reason. Listen to Vader, Death or Necrophagia. Even on the first records you won't get that diarrhea balls-cut sound some Vk guys are very talented in to produce (Nega, Unsraw, D etc. etc.). Either you scream very loud into a cheap mic, distort it and sell it as "growling", as Yuuki did it, or you plainly do it wrong, fuck up, get operated, don't learn from it, fuck up again and be where the guy from D'espairsray is today. There are not so many options in between. And your theory of people spontaneously doing it different to "reinvent" it somehow doesn't really stand either, after so many fails and hospital visits.

 

I love non-singing vocals, if they are done right. In VK, in my opinion there has been a real increase in quality recently. I still prefer non-VK bands as my source though.

[blackdoll 907]

I'll never get things like this. You dislike every single oshare kei bands because some uses autotune? That doesn't make sense. One can use autotune tastefully, so you don't have to sound like T-Pain or anything and go full retard with the whole shit.

 

 

I don't mind growling or harsh vocals (never heard harsh vocals in any VK band though) as long as it fits the music. That's the only thing I care about. It needs to fit the music. And in the VK scene there's good growlers and bad growlers, just like in the rest of the music scene in the world.

 

And I don't get the whole "they shouldn't growl because they don't have the training" thing that some have said in this thread. One needs training to growl and use harsh vocals? When did someone need any training to do this shit?

amen

[relentless 254]

@Bear: That's the key word, isn't it? "Manage" Sure, Wataru manages to do what he does; but the lack of quality in his falsettos and gutturals (and his occasional high squeals now) shows that. There is no actual control over what he is doing which is what you would expect someone who has taken lessons to have. You don't need a degree in gutturals to do them; but you at least need to know the basics on how to properly do them, and if you miss that it will inhibit performance and vocal health.

And, it depends on how you want to define "great vocalist". If we are taking it at it's most basic level, a "great vocalist" would be someone that demonstrates an incredible skill in performance. And if it comes down to that, you do need training to do so. You or I could never dream of performing Opera unless we went through years of training. We couldn't stay in key unless we trained our ears and voice to find the proper key, we could not perform gutturals unless they were trained. Every facet of music is training. Do you think Malmsteen, Gilbert, Paganini, Pavarotti, or Fischer-Dieskau could excel at what they do without training? No. Training is the essence of music. Bands practice when they're not touring, and vocalists do warm-ups to preserve the quality in their voice. It all comes down to training and practice.

In regards to Hellhammer and Sepultura: Though I'm not going to speak on the quality of the band, "Classics" are less about technical skill than it is about impact on a genre. When people reference the Beatles as being the greatest band of all time, they are recognizing their cultural influence. There was a band of young girls named "The Shaggs" who released an album called Philosophy of the World. They literally did not know how to play music and assembled because their father had a premonition from God that they would be a great band. Well...listen to that album. It is a mess, yet, Zappa and Cobain hailed the album as being "Great".

When it comes down to the music in question, it's all about personal enjoyment and preference, true; but when we are discussing PERFORMANCE, that is something that can be objectively discussed because there is good form, and bad form. There are notes you hit, and notes you miss. The performance of musicians can be heavily critiqued that can remain separate from the music.

[blackdoll 907]

None singing voices

best whisper song (nice screams too)

 

not sure its him but speaking in a girl voice

 

his hais

[cruel-crucible 89]

I had a really long comment all typed up with examples and stuff, but I figured you guys wouldn't really care anyway, so I'm just gonna say - to each their own.

 

You may dig the screams/growls that other people hate, and vice-versa, it's as simple as that.

[Zeus 7997]

If you reduce all conversation to "opinions", then what's the point of even talking? Share your opinion, even if it's unpopular. It's yours and someone will always read it.