Split Up [Downloads] to different discussion

[Bunny 1140]

I suggest Split Up [Downloads] to different discussion part ,

- Visual Kei (includes indies / Major)

- J-Rock (includes General Rock / non-visual bands(artists))

- Anime (includes Games / Anime Music)

there is too many mixed music in the same [Downloads] forum ,

sometimes is really difficult to find the files that peoples want ,

and I think if they Split Up to different catalogue ,

user may be happier to look which by which ,

and I personally think is a better idea ,

if they want viusal kei , just click into it ,

have music share , and don't have to mess up with J-Rock ,

same as peoples who Love J-Rock , may not like Visual Kei .

[LIDL 692]

first thing first, there is no such thing as "Anime Rock"

so that point kinda ridiculous, me think.

Also, i always see VK as a sub genre of J-Rock, if J-Rock itself even a genre.

I see J-Rock itself as a label that peoples in this Japanese music enthusiasts community

would call to differ with the Western Rock. It is a running contradiction.

This matter about genres have been discussed for gazillions times already,

and always ended with no clear conclusion.

As for the matter having split the downloads section into genres,

i see it very impractical. Cos i see it adding more trouble than making it neat.

And i just don't feel comfortable to split VK and non VK Japanese rock downloads.

And it may cause some shitstorm to some bands too, that are blurred whether or not

they are VK, cos many bands leaving VK after awhile and many other staying in but only

without too much make ups and colourful hairs, example DELUHI and the GazettE.

Many considering these two as VK still, but many other think they are not cos, they wear no

contacts etc etc etc that have been standards in VK fashion.

This is my personal concern, and also my two cents.

Given that, clearly, i am trying to say i disagree with this idea.

But i guess we can keep more opinion coming.

What other members would say,

and what does the Staff (Admin and Mods) would say as well.

[Bunny 1140]

U got your opinion ,

I got mine , so , nothing I really wanna say ...

was just trying to suggest different Subforums for differ peoples ,

if u saying about their genres ... why don't everyone just post music in [Downloads] ,

like J-Pop , K-Pop , C-Pop , Folks , K-Rock , Anime , Games ,

OST , Classical , Metal ...whatever they are ...

and I wasn't meant to have genre's Subforums ,

also ... there isn't only VK 'n non-VK J-Rock if u take a look carefully ,

there is also some Pop / Punk / Folk / Acoustic / Electronic stuffs ,..

however ... I just think is too much in the same Subforums .

[Guest]

I actually agree with Bunny. Would have been a lot easier, or if they were just divided into regular genres.

[Bunny 1140]

I actually agree with Bunny. Would have been a lot easier, or if they were just divided into regular genres.

Thank you , that's why I suggest this with no harm ,

at least can try it ... just to arrange better Music share subforums .

[CAT5 9075]

In the past, we've usually been opposed to segregating the download forums, but with the recent surge in non-VK enthusiasm, I'm thinking that some kind of reform might not hurt.

[Champ213 1858]

I think we had discussions like this before.

For now, the main reason why we haven't seperated the DL section into genres is because people never can agree on genres.

Even just seperating into visual and non-visual is rather messy because there are bands that are borderline, or bands that were vk but stopped being vk. We basically would be forced to move an old Dir en grey release into the vk forum, while a new Dir en grey release would be posted in the non-vk forum. (And Anime/Game music rarely if ever gets uploaded, so I don't see a need for a special forum)

Personally I would find it more difficult to find stuff if I had to check several subforums that all may or may not contain something I want.

I think we also refrained from seperating vk and non-vk because we didn't want to encourage the kind of limited "in the box"-thinking that is rather common among japanese music fans. Usually vk fans stay among on their own, and non-vk fans stay among their own. Very often there is even hostility between them, ie. vk being looked down on by non-vk fans and vice versa. We always took great pride in the fact that while this forum is somewhat centered on vk, we also have many users that like non-vk, or both, and there was relatively little hostility between them. Having a unified DL section that goes beyond that petty vk vs non-vk theme reflected that. It's all music after all.

Anyway, if a majority of people really wants to have that split, and people have some practical ideas on how we can seperate bands without causing massive shitstorms about what's vk and what not, I'm sure that I and the other mods are willing to entertain that idea.

A split into genres is probably not going to happen (ie. rock/pop/metal/folk/electronic), I think it would make it rather difficult to find things. I am on another forum that uses the form, and I find it rather bothersome.

But yeah. I'm open for suggestions.

[fitear1590 2414]

Damn champ, you are so logical, haha. Need to get me some of that.

But seriously, I'm glad you mentioned the "in the box" thinking about "vk/non-vk". It's really starting to irk me that I see that so much. All of Japanese music to you is either "vk" or "non-vk"? Really?! That's a problem...

[Bunny 1140]

Seems there is already a decision as a [NO] ,

I do understand there must be many ppls find it difficult to have different subforums , but , may I just say ,

there is also many ppls find it difficult to have just one [Downloads] forum ...

just saying it harmless

[Champ213 1858]

There is no decision. Personally I don't like the idea for the reasons I mentioned, but I'm not making decisions here on my own. So I'll wait and see what other people have to say about it. May as well have a discussion about it to get all the pros and cons, and then have a user poll.

[Guest]

I think that the dl section should stay like it is, because of what Champ already said. It would be quite hard to agree on genres, and finding something of interest might be harder. Also that would be an enourmous job (I'm not saying that the "crew" couldn't do it though).

[Biopanda 2675]

Personally I think the download forum should stay as it is. Nowadays there are many bands that would be hard to split between VK and non-VK, would you post them in both categories?

For example, where would you place this band:

T4vtn5yfrZk

They have a "visual" look and music that could fit in either category. They also play concerts with both VK and non-VK bands, so you can't choose by that.

This is just one example, but many examples exist. There are also plenty of electronic artists that have a "visual" look too, but are certainly not VK.

[Zeus 7997]

I am also against splitting up the downloads section any further than it already is. For all the sub-forums that were already created not just for downloads but just for general discussion of music that may not necessarily be visual kei (such as Thai rock, Chinese rock, lossless, rock from Europe and the Americas, etc.) those forums see little to no usage. If we split it up into visual and non-visual it's going to be extremely obvious that the non-visual component is going to be eclipsed because this is a forum inhabited primarily by visual kei fans. All in all, it's going to lessen the amount of diversity we see in our download section and I believe that this diversity is one of the main selling points of Monochrome Heaven - visual or not if it's Japanese you're likely to find it here. I personally would love for it to stay that way.

I also second the notion that we have fans here that are close-minded about their music and that they fear going out of their comfort zone and experiencing something new. Segregating the forums are not only going to agitate this mentality but make the hostility between visual and non-visual fans worse and that is something this forum as a whole does not need. I can already envision there being minor shitstorms about "x band looks too visual to be in this forum" or "this band is normal it should be moved". That's tons of unnecessary work for both uploaders and the moderation team IMO.

In addition, there is no "messing up" involved in our forum as it is. I think it works very well, even if the turnover is rather quick it shows that it's active and successful. I've noticed that non-visual fans don't really complain too much about the large amounts of visual kei that appear here because they know this is a visual forum and it's to be expected. Sure we may mention it and we may say "hey, it would be nice to see more non visual kei music being promoted around here" but I haven't heard of one fan going out and saying "i'm tired of this visual shit i want my own forum". They just want more of an appreciation for ALL Japanese music, not just visual kei. Sorry to say it's the visual fans that want a separation because they can't stand seeing a non-visual band or two in the downloads forum. I know this is true because I was one of those people.

I don't understand why the forums should be separated on the basis of visual versus non-visual anyhow. The artists all play the same types of music and sing primarily in one of two languages - the only thing that differs is what they wear and this isn't a big enough difference to warrant an extra subforum. I've seen artists that consider themselves non-visual that wear some extravagant clothing and I've also seen so-called "visual" artists that could pass for regular rock bands. This makes posting much more confusing than it needs to be. We already have people afraid to post certain quality rips because "it's not high enough" - soon we'll have people afraid to post releases because both camps are going to complain it belongs in the other. One unified forum dodges this bullet.

Besides, there's a search bar at the bottom of the forums. If you can't find what you're looking for, use that.

[Champ213 1858]

By the way, I made this topic an announcement so that we get more people to give input. From what I heard so far, I think so far we can summarize the following pros and cons:

Pros of a split:

- People who are more or less only into to one kind of music (vk or non-vk) can browse their "own" sub-forum without being disturbed by stuff they don't like

- Both forums will be slower, so this also means that uploads don't get bumped down that quickly

- Creating a non-vk forum may be seen as some sort of stronger endorsement of that kind of music

Cons of a split:

- Difficult to seperate bands. Bands may change their appearence, and there are many bands that may look vk, but aren't. (Just think of all the goth/industrial/electronic artists, many of them violently deny being vk of any sort.)

- People who like BOTH vk and non-vk will have to check 2 forums instead of one, and we might encourage musical isolationism by seperating the two. I'm sure many people stumbled on bands they would usually not listen to because they're all in the same forum.

- To make things really neat, we would have to go through all uploads so far and move them accordingly. I guess it could be done though with a bit of time and effort, but it's still something to be considered. Alternatively we could create an "archive" and dump everything so far in there, but I'm not overly fond of that either.

Anyway, keep the discussion going.

[Galaxxxy 3]

Besides, there's a search bar at the bottom of the forums. If you can't find what you're looking for, use that.

I was agree of splitting until I read this.

The original reason why I want to split the forum is just because sometimes it is anoying to see a mix of many generes, and I am into Visual Kei only.

BUT, As the cons says, it will be annoying for people who really likes a mix of generes to be checking every forum, and also, as Zesshoku says, there is a search bar.

[Biopanda 2675]

Besides, there's a search bar at the bottom of the forums. If you can't find what you're looking for, use that.

I was agree of splitting until I read this.

The original reason why I want to split the forum is just because sometimes it is anoying to see a mix of many generes, and I am into Visual Kei only.

BUT, As the cons says, it will be annoying for people who really likes a mix of generes to be checking every forum, and also, as Zesshoku says, there is a search bar.

Inb4 vk is not a genre

[Champ213 1858]

We actually looked into installing a tagging mod on the forum in the past already. See example here:

http://nanothree.net/dev/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11

People who only like certain genres could sort the uploads by tags added to them.

I actually tried to install that mod on our own test forum, but so far I couldn't make it work. Kai and manda know more about coding and stuff, maybe they find some time to look into that in the future, as it would probably be the ideal solution. People who like the current mix can browse the forums as before, and people who want a more intricate seperation can browse by tags.

There would still be the problem of assigning proper genre labels, but a poorely tagged file wouldn't matter so much, as it's still in the same forum and not hidden somewhere where people don't expect it to be.

[Number Girl 48]

If visual kei gets its own special board, then there better be a special board for labels like indie, jazz, HR/HM, punk, etc. too. Sorry, I hate how in this fandom, visual kei (a scene that encompasses very little of the actual Japanese rock music) is always considered sooooo different and unique it warrants its own domain . . . but everything else - all those "unimportant bands" are just "lowl Jay-wawk" (as if its all the freaking same, unlike a majority of visual kei these days). Visual kei is Japanese and it is rock. The artists just happen to sit in dresses nine times out of ten, which like others have said is hardly a good reason to "separate" them into their own holy, untainted section.

The "non-VK fandom" isn't quite as cut and dry as many people make it out to be either; it is a diverse place in itself just because the only qualification is to lack the "visual" title. Many people aren't broad enough in their tastes (or shallow enough) to listen to something just because it ISN'T VK. There are people who only prefer heavy metal bands/classic rock and there are people who only like indie rock/post-rock bands and there are people who only like punk or hardcore or black metal. Would we split for those people too?

I agree with Zess about the "non-VK" stuff potentially being eclipsed - not that it isn't enough already. If that wasn't so, there would be no need for those recommendation boards. I don't see how one would have a problem finding anything related to visual kei at all here, even without a search engine. I also concur that the whole issues of genre can cause problems. Some bands push the boundary between visual and non-visual and it can go without saying that section has enough drama as it is.

[Bunny 1140]

I should end this topic , but I can't ..

and I totally understand ppls who doesn't want to split ,

everyone has reasons , so neither do I ?

and there is still many ppls find it difficult to have just one [Downloads] forum ...

even if there is [search] tool or whatsoever ..

Anyway , I think this topic should close now .

[Jigsaw9 6783]

Splitting up the downloads section would be pretty utopistic I think, seeing that there are tons of bands that can fall into more genres, or just simply some people say that a given band is in whatever genre, and someone else thinks it's not, etc.

So all in all, I think it's a nice thought but it can't be done without lots of confusion and irritation, so I'm against it.

[Ito 2438]

The main reason that this idea would never work is one that is tied to basic forum usage. People do not visit subforms nearly as much as they do regular forums. The goal of a forum, in my mind, is to create some form of separation of topics with out being limiting. Hell, I think some of out forums/subforums are maybe too specific.

Secondly, I will say this. When Jake and I started Tainted World...god I don't remember how long ago (2005?), both him and I were in to visual kei. While that was true, this forum was about Japanese rock music, our interest just leaned heavily on VK. I think we have hit a mature enough point in this community to realize it is about the fun we have talking, the sharing of music, and the friends we have made, and less about Vk. Hell, I think if you are going to only listen to VK and not open yourself up to any other genres, this probably isn't the best place for you to be.

I honestly pride this forum on the mix of musical tastes we have going on, and if the downloads section was segregated in to subforums, I probably would have not found of a lot of the music that I enjoy today. Could the downloads section use some more cleaning up? Yes, of course! Does it need to be split up by genres? Definitely not

[doaseternity6 93]

We've had this come up many times in the past and I've always been against. Still am. Champ and zesshoku already brought up many of my own points so I won't wax on about that. D:

[evilcoconut 109]

I think the splitting is a good idea, and for the whole VK thing, I think that once VK always VK. I mean, I DON'T really like that, but for the purpose of splitting, it's not really ~right~ to include them with acts who have NEVER EVER been associated with VK. Especially since the music is usually quite different. BUt the other thing is, there should probably be a Jpop section and is there really that much anime/game music to warrant its own section?

[237Q 154]

I'd say no...

Clearly because I do wait for some vkei releases, but I wouldn't discover a lot of good non-vk bands if they weren't there mixed with other downloads simply because I'm not interested in giving them attention before I hear them (idk why I'm such an anti when it comes to youtube XD)..

[TheBistroButcher666 228]

I say no but I am also the champion of the search button.