Viewing Visual Kei as a Genre. (Questionnaire)

[coffee000 14]

while for example in rock everyone has a rock style. but they can critique very hardly people who copy. it's not really acceptable in the same way.

 they support &  promote more uniqueness as a way of thinking and acting ,nomatter what they do.

 

I think in the West a lot of mainstream or not so mainstream (I mean mostly one hit wonders or so) rock bands have similar sounds to other bands from the same time period or same scene. I don't think they are criticized that much. In fact, some of those bands are even considered good. I think the problem is that, once you become well-known and mainstream, a lot of people will dislike and criticize you (that's how you get the impression that bands are criticized for copying or something), while at the same time more people will like and remember you. That's very rewarding so the criticism is nothing over time. In 15, 20 or 30 years, nobody will probably remember the criticism anymore.

[Tetora 625]

I'm all about forming individual opinions and stick to them, but later on you substitute my open-ended definition for visual kei with your open-ended definition for visual kei, which leads us back to what I said before: you can't define visual kei.

 

 

I was not trying to substitute any definition for another. Basically, this thread was not about what Visual Kei is, or is supposed to be, it was to find out individual people`s views. I really don`t have that much interest in other people pinning down what Visual Kei is, etc... They can think what they want, but since you took the time to write out all that originally, and mentioned people not responding in the past I figured I would supply my input, a.k.a. disagreements.

 

As for one not being able to define Visual Kei, I feel as if it already is silently defined as music that revolves around Rock and a certain lineage of bands, and that the Visual term comes from the emphasis on certain looks that the bands put on themselves. Not all bands have a look or the same sound, but they still revolve around that lineage. As for genre, scene, movement, I am not really interested or see a point in having one nailed down.

 

and what perpetuates it. 

 

 

Again, I disagree with the reasons given as to what perpetuates it, but let`s agree to disagree on this since we can go on and on... ( I know agree to disagree is a rage-worthy term sometimes, pardon me.)

 

Even if genre, movement, scene are too restrictive to describe what visual kei is, we need to relegate it to something. 

 

 

One of the feelings I had when creating this thread, is that things are fine as they are, Visual Kei is doing well without definitions, etc... as we all basically have very similar views when it is all said and done of what bands are and aren`t VK, besides a few stringers, like Dir En Grey, TMR, etc.... And another thing I wanted to find out and discuss was the use of sub-genres, which I don`t fully `get`still, and feel like they often relegate things to something that wasn`t needed, and wont help you.

 

The problem with subjectivity is that you can view something from so subjective an angle that it becomes pointless to discuss. If we leave the definition of visual kei up to experience and how people feel it should be, we run (once again) right back into the same problem that I highlighted in my first gargantuan post: we can talk for ten pages about what visual kei is and never get to the root of it. I'm all for letting people think what they want, but there has to be a common point that we all agree on - otherwise we will never get a definition for what visual kei is. From reading this thread, enough of us agree that visual kei is a scene for that to be our "common point". That's enough for me.

 

 

 

I don`t feel as if this problem actually exists though. I have not witnessed much of an issue with things being subjective, as no matter what, and no matter how many people vote in one favor, as I gave examples for, genre, sub-genre, etc... is all subjective, and wont change into fact. We could have an anonymous vote on something in VK, but then the band wont even agree, and the Japanese industry wont agree, so that is what I think is pointless.

 

As for scene, movement, I am not stepping into that actual field, I just have feelings on it being a personal genre.

 

Quite a few things:

High pressure to conform

Intense pressure to do well

High suicide rate and high clinical depression rate

Declining birth rate since young people stopped having sex because they see no point in it

Lost 10/20 Years

Corruption (most recent good example of this is Fukushima)

 

 

But none of these things are really solely existent to Japan.

 

High pressure to conform is found in many countries, Japan is tenth in suicide rates with a number that drops down steeply from the top spots, although Japanese culture has a stronger history of suicide as an act based on things other than depression,  birth rate is actually dropping in many places worldwide, including where I am now, Canada. The difference, as I have studied for years is based on things like immigration. Other countries have declining birth rates, marriage, sex, etc... as well with their natives / established citizens, so they are either bringing in immigrants to even the age gap, or finding that immigrants are mostly the ones having sex and children. Many companies now are already adjusting long-term marketing plans in Canada to encompass the fact that more customers will be seniors... Many new snacks in development have segmentation based on long-term sales to seniors. This is not a Japanese problem solely, from my vantage point.

Corruption, IMO, is not nearly as heavy in Japan as many other countries, even with the Yakuza, which studies have shown are much less malignant to society than Triads, Mafia, etc... Here in my city, the mafia runs many establishments like restaurants, Casino, etc... And our former mayor also had ties to the mob, and was stealing money and materials from the new hospital being built. I know people who know his daughter, she sells cocaine. The mayor of Toronto also supposedly smokes crack.

 

So IMO I can appreciate how Japan`s unique blend of problems as well as values (values not really touched on sadly) can contribute to the unique VK habitat, but again I have to say it is inconclusive, and even then countries with much different socio-political et ceteras... have bigger VK fandom and scenes than more similar countries (South America).

 

(Just to point out to anyone reading this and confused, this is a different discussion we are having than the original that got melded together.)

 

America is one of the most dominant cultural countries of the world. Japan is lower on the totem pole. Rap and visual kei are also not on equal footing. You can take rap music and transform it so that it fits the ideals of the country it's being ported to. You can't take visual kei and transform it, mostly because we still haven't gotten to a working definition of what that is, so how do you know what to take? What to leave? What to change without destroying the core essence of visual kei? And on top of all of that, there are plenty of places in the world that are not receptive to things such as effeminate men, who would resist visual kei because it's outside of their comfort zones. Two way different things that have different obstacles to overcome.

 

 

Good points, but what I would like to touch on, is if Japan is so much more conformist, how can people get away with VK et cetera there, and be ostracized in other places for it? Despite what some people would like to claim, Japan does not have a history of effeminate men, and herbivore men are still not in the same topic, or in a great enough number despite media claim to get viewers. (As stated other countries without herbivore outbreaks have dropping sex and birth rates, any suggestion that herbs are the cause is inconclusive.) 

[Original Saku 1593]

Can't people just listen to the music and enjoy it and then leave it at that? Who really cares about how we should define visual kei or what it is for that matter? Why do we have to come up with a cause for why vk is what it is? does it matter?

 

These are the question I'm asking myself as i read through this thread... also I see this is gonna go no where just like every single discussion about this topic in the history of this forum has always gone nowhere.

 

Can't we just stop?

[Tetora 625]

Right. That's four bands. The visual kei scene is small, but not that small. The amount of bands that disband due to lack of money also say otherwise.

 

 

Kind of an insulting response. Obviously I am not going to sit here and list every single person in VK history who had money.

There are a large amount of bands that disband in many, if not almost every genre due to money, it does not tie that genre to that trait. I listed one of the originators and most influential people in VK to show that the genre is not by any means tied to that, and we could look at how many more key VK figures had money before they started. VK is not based around poor or struggling people with so many prominent figures saying otherwise.

 

No. Japan has one of the most homogenous countries in the world with a complete and total culture of conformity. In fact the Japanese have a saying that reflects it: "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down". I am no expert on Japanese culture, but the writing on the wall is clear.

 

 

Complete and total culture of conformity is such an absolute term with no absolute substantiation to back it that I have to disagree. The nail that sticks up is a saying that exists in many different many all over the world. I do not see the writing being clear on the wall by any means here.

 

No, it's a rewording of the conformity paradox. Visual kei in and of itself is very conformist, which is ironic considering it is widely believed to have started as a movement for freedom of expression.

 

 

You stated that VK bands are based around rebelling against a system, when actually being used by the system, then being assimilated, etc... I see no backing for this, or how VK is really so conformist when the topic at hand is based around how different the bands that fall under VK can be. I do not see SId, Dir En Grey, X Japan, Luna Sea, Ayabie etc as conforming to something here, they all went their own way with different sounds, looks and presentations. Not seeing how the bands expression is subdued in any way either.

 

 

I don't think so.

 

 

First article is peer reviewed by one person in the US and another in HK. The whole article is subjective, but also goes on to list the number of Hikko`s who remove themselves from society.  For a totally conformist country there sure are a lot of people either removed from the culture, or living in subcultures here.

 

 

 

Lost 10/20 Years

 

 

 

Kind of insulting how you post this article link in response as if I am supposed to be educating myself on something when you stated that the recession was 30 years long, and I stated it started in the 90`s, which that article, albeit from Wikipedia, confirms, so I am not sure why you are posting it. I am very aware of the socio-economic history of Japan. It was a very different place before the Bubble burst and government maintenance failed later on. The issues you bring up here and with things such as birth rates etc... Do not tie in with many major points in VK history, and some of your linked articles refer to more recent events which I do not feel represent strong influence on why VK is here in the first place when it precedes many of these occurrences.

 

Actually, I would have expected someone to say that I've said much of nothing by not defining what visual kei is and instead indirectly defining what it is by it's constituents. I haven't pigeonholed visual kei at all because I refuse to define it. 

 

 

 

True, I was still desiring your final thoughts on the subject which were kind of lacking from your article.

 

As for the pigeon-holing, it comes from stating certain causes for VK, motivation of bands, effects of society on VK, or level of wealth in the average band and how that defines VK, etc... as I feel those are incorrect and do not represent VK as a whole by any means.

 

 

 

Overall, I really enjoy reading everyone`s points, and please understand that even if I disagree with you, or the topic goes off track, I am still taking in what you are saying. Thanks for your input.

[Tetora 625]

Can't people just listen to the music and enjoy it and then leave it at that? Who really cares about how we should define visual kei or what it is for that matter? Why do we have to come up with a cause for why vk is what it is? does it matter?

 

These are the question I'm asking myself as i read through this thread... also I see this is gonna go no where just like every single discussion about this topic in the history of this forum has always gone nowhere.

 

Can't we just stop?

 

The thread isn`t really about what we should define VK as, it`s just everyone`s individual opinions that we can appreciate. I am discussing with Zess because he wrote out a huge piece and I thought it deserved more attention than it originally got. If anyone has any different feelings or ideas, I love to hear them, and unless they want to discuss, I wont disagree with them.

 

I enjoy your sentiment as well though

[seikun 317]

In a way I think Visual Kei could be consider a musical genre because many bands contributed to give Visual Kei a specific sound during the 90's mainly. Many have already pointed out this before. However, not all bands stick to that sound, not even the most representative bands of the style stick to it as if there is no other way out. Most Visual Kei bands experiment with different styles.

 

This topic will be always a bit complex but nowaways many people don't care about genres. Genres are something of the past.

[Sakura Seven 593]

vk is cool as fuck & that's all i care about tbh

 

now if you excuse me i must mail 30,000 yen to bandmen sama #MitsuProblems

[relentless 254]

1. It's honestly very difficult to say. As a whole, Visual Kei falls under this middle category beween Classical and something like Rock or Metal. Classical is NOT a genre (despite efforts to define it as such), where as Rock and Metal are. On one hand, Visual Kei operates as a movement of music (similar to Classical); but without the richness of variation and actual musical development. On the other, most bands fall under the general term "Hard Rock"; but this can not be attributed to EVERY band. Even then, when we try to divide Visual Kei into sub genres, it becomes nearly impossible because those "subgenres" tend to be in regards to how they dress and not the music they're making.

Genre is something very general so yes, I can tell the genre of most bands; but once you get into the specifics of subgenres then it would prove a little difficult in some places. And I will never like a band based on their look. In some cases (Ghost) it adds to my enjoyment; but in those cases the outfits actually serve a purpose.

The looks never matter to me. If a band can write good music, then I will always give them a listen.

I generally discover music. If I hear something I like, I will search for similar artists.

No. I'm only remotely bothered when those labels hinder the discussion of music. If someone talks about Classical as a "genre" (something that has nothing to do with Classical), then the distinction has to be made to further discuss it in detail.

BONUS: No.

[237Q 154]

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

Objectively, it's not a genre. But there ARE some elements that majority of bands (at least those I've heard at least one song by, since i got interested in vk by now, that's probs around 300 or something) do put into their music, so it's KINDA a genre, excluding those that have extremely specific sound. I'm really horrible at recognizing genres in general, I recognize a band, or a group of similar bands, but never know how to classify them to somebody who's never heard any of those bands for example. Also I started listening to VK artists when I was really young (13 I think) and my music taste and knowledge was just forming, so in a way, I do see visual kei as a genre even though somebody non-biased and more knowledgeable of music in general would say it isn't.

 

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

I kind of discover bands by accident, I never really LOOK for bands to follow. Youtube recommendations, last.fm artists, friends spreading the word and so on is my way of finding new music. I actually go through phases where my receptiveness of new music varies (sometimes I'm just good with what I know, and then there are times when I just crave hearing something completely new), and if I'm in the mood for new stuff, I'll just search youtube for any band name I remember seeing, whether I've seen the picture or I've only heard of the band's name. I try not to judge bands too much based on their looks only, because I've ran across a few examples where I've been completely wrong about a band, and thought they would be completely crappy and not worth it, where they end up being absolutely awesome. 

 

3: Do the looks matter to you? If the same band dressed in Jeans and T-shirts with short hair, would you be as interested?

I would probably not be so interested in hearing them in the first place, but if I've just randomly heard their song and liked it enough to look them up, I don't care at all how the band looks like. In my head, bands are kind of divided into three sections based on WHY I like them: 1) visuals 2) music and 3) both. If a band falls into the second, I don't care about their visual side of things at all. Bands from the third category though, I would still listen to them and love them even though I would feel it's a pity they don't do visual (/anymore/) (for example, I absolutely worship Moran's PVs and their music is just something that I feel grateful for having in my life. But knowing how they are now and how perfect their videos are to me, I would just value their existence in my life a little less if they didn't have those videos even though their music is more than satisfying itself.) 

 

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

No, I suck at making a difference between genres, let alone sub-genres 

 

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

Generally I try to avoid labeling anything in my life, and it applies to music too. Though genres are helpful in a way, I think they also to an extent limit both artists and the audience from experimenting and exploring. But I don't get annoyed simply because maybe somebody wants to justify liking a band a little out of their comfort zone to themselves? maybe they just think the band has some elements found in a specific genre (music sadly does have a little bit limited elements that go through all genres and ages after all)? I don't know what their arguments for labeling something are, so I have no rights to judge their opinion before I hear them out, I guess. 

 

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

Depends. If all that's left the same are band members and band name, then no. If they didn't make any difference in their music and just stopped dressing up all fancy, they are still visual kei (going back to my reasons from the first question)

[relentless 254]

@ Original Saku: Music is not JUST all about enjoyment. To simplify music as "why can't we just all enjoy it?" is doing a disservice to music when there are understandings and schools of thought rooted in music that are worth exploring. There's nothing wrong with just enjoying a certain kind of music and that is all; but to others there is a great enjoyment in not only listening to the music; but UNDERSTANDING it as well. Music appreciation (vs. enjoyment) tends to fall under this category.

[beni 2149]

 

Questions:

 

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

Always thought of it as a genre. A style if the subject is about the appearance.

 

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

I'll try anything. The way a musician look doesn't really affect my choice of giving them a listen or not, it just adds to the whole package once I hear it. I'm not the best at figuring out genres so I'd usually read up on a band/artist before assuming.

 

3: Do the looks matter to you? If the same band dressed in Jeans and T-shirts with short hair, would you be as interested?

I won't say they matter, but referring to my above answer, it just adds more. It's the same with art covers, if it's pretty then I'll more than likely definitely give it a go, but that doesn't make me any less interested in, say, a totally plain cover. But even if a band just wears casual attire, much like my favourite, Plastic Tree, it doesn't matter to me because the vocals and music is what matter most to me.

 

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

Yes, I usually do. It's just easier to search for new music that way. Or look at similar units.

 

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

Nope. Everyone takes and looks at music differently. Even if it may be obviously wrong, if that's what they take from it, then that's that. 

 

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

I'd say, like Dir En Grey, I still call them VK. It's just a label as you've said above, so I don't think it should be that annoying in the first place. Music always evolves, but I think it makes perfect sense that those who have been the most influential in a certain area would still be remembered and even classified with that genre.

[Deathtopi4 428]

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

A scene or style, the range of bands that are vk is just too broad for me to consider it a genre. 

 

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

No, usually not. Sometimes I can kinda tell if a band is gonna be too poppy for me based on how they look, but I generally give them a chance anyway because I could easily be wrong lol.

 

3: Do the looks matter to you? If the same band dressed in Jeans and T-shirts with short hair, would you be as interested?

Nope. Sometimes a unique look will pique my interest, but if I try them and they suck then that's that. And of course, regardless of what they wear if they sound good that's all that matters.

 

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

No, I'm not good at identifying those really specific genres at all... I just try various music I encounter.

 

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

Nope, again I'm terrible about identifying genres. I might be a little disturbed if it was wayyy out of the ballpark, for example saying that a band like HNIB is country pop or something, but that's about it XD

 

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

If I started out thinking of them as vk I'll probably keep that association, like with Dir en Grey. 

[evilcoconut 109]

1: Don`t worry about others, is Visual Kei a genre, or a scene, or something else, to you?

 

it's a genre

 

2: Most of the time can you tell the genre, or if you will like a band based on their look?

 

i can usually tell the genre, but not necessarily if i will like them

 

3: Do the looks matter to you? 

 

no

 

4: Do you search for music by sub-genre, such as Nu-Metal, Alt. Rock, etc?

 

i don't search for music by genre at all, except VK hahah.

 

5: Do you get annoyed when others label your favorite music as genres which you don`t agree with?

 

nope, don't give a crap

 

Bonus: If a band starts as Visual Kei, even if they change, are they Visual Kei 4 Lyfe?

 

yep. there's just a sound there that never fully goes away. plus, even the most t-shirty ex-vkers can't seem to help taking the stage in wacky costumes and/or makeup again at some point