Visual Kei in and outside of Japan

[Reizoko 0]

Before I start with this, let me tell you that this post might become long, so prepare to read a long text or feel free to leave if you don't feel like reading.

This thread is supposed to be about the way people in Japan/Japanese people see Visual Kei as opposed to how it's seen outside of Japan, by people like us.

I used to like Visual Kei back in 06/07 and certainly had my weeaboo moments back then, trying to dress veekay and stuff, although it didn't last that long. My interested faded with time and for the last couple of years I've only been listening to exactly 1 Visual Kei band, which is Versailles, probably due to the fact that about ７0% of the music I listened to in the past couple of years is Power Metal and similar music. When I graduated High school in '09 I decided to major in Japanese Studies in University and me liking Visual Kei in the past certainly was a factor that led me to do this, although before starting University I knew that Visual Kei is basically not popular in Japan and that studying Japanese Studies will have nothing to do with Visual Kei. Even so I wanted to know more about the country where Visual Kei originally comes from.

From October 11 till March 12 I studied abroad in Japan and I don't know if it was destiny (haha) or just some random coincidence that I indirectly came in contact with Visual Kei over there　without ever planning to. For the first couple of months I had no contact with it whatsoever, but at around Christmas time something that I would have never imagined happened: I was scouted by a Host Club. I don't even know why. At that time my hair was too long to look hostish and my cloths looked NOTHING like a host at all. So anyway, after thinking about it I decided to go to the job interview because this was an opportunity that I certainly wouldn't get a second time. Before the interview I even went to a styling salon with a manager of the Club to have my hair done there. As mentioned before, I didn't really look that hostish because my hair was too long...But whatever.

In the end I didn't get the job because it's illegal to work as a host with an exchange student Visa.

Anyway,　this experience got me interested in Mizushôbai.

I wanted to get to know people who do this kind of work and talk to them, so I logged on mixi, joined some Host/Hostess/Kyabajo and so on communities and started to get to know people, even in real life.

What I immediately noticed when looking at profiles of those people on mixi is that a lot of them (let's say about 60% to maybe 70%) like Visual Kei.　Which is not that surprising considering the fact that Visual Kei hairstyle has similarities to Host hairstyle.

Another thing I noticed after getting to know a couple of people is that they have a different relation to Visual Kei as opposed to foreign fans. While foreign fans tend to see themselves as 'visual', 'visu', 'vk' (call it however you like) I've not met a single Japanese person that does so. They much rather just say things like 'I like Visual Kei', but that's about it. From what I've experienced so far, there doesn't really exist a 'Visual Kei subculture' in Japan (or if it does, it is really, really small) while it does in foreign countries.

There is a subculture that can somewhat be related to Visual Kei though, which is Gyaru　and Gyaruo. But even if you are Gyaru or Gyaruo, it doesn't automatically mean that you like Visual Kei. There's tons of them that don't, but probably more than 50% of them do like it.

To sum it up, my experience is that foreign fans who like Visual Kei want to be just like the bands and try to be 'visual', while Japanese Visual Kei fans do not consider themselves 'visual', even those that have similarities to Visual Kei in their looks (Host, Gyaruo).

Another thing that I noticed is that the term J-Rock is used differently in and outside of Japan. While outside of Japan it's mostly used for Visual Kei Bands I've never heard a Japanese person use the word J-Rock to refer to a Visual Kei Band. Visual Kei bands are called Visual Kei (surprise!), most of the time shortened to 'VKei' in Japan while J-Rock is used for...Well, Bands that actually make rock music. And let's be honest, there's a ton of Visual Kei bands that do NOT make rock music and are still considered J-Rock outside of japan.

Ok, I think that's about it. I'd like to hear your thoughts. Have foreign fans 'misinterpreted' Visual Kei and created something that has nothing to do with the actual Japanese Visual Kei? Why does this gap exist?

Please note that most of what I wrote is my personal experience and not any kind of absolute truth, so if you have made different experiences, feel free to share them.

[TheBistroButcher666 228]

While foreign fans tend to see themselves as 'visual', 'visu', 'vk' (call it however you like) I've not met a single Japanese person that does so. They much rather just say things like 'I like Visual Kei', but that's about it. From what I've experienced so far, there doesn't really exist a 'Visual Kei subculture' in Japan (or if it does, it is really, really small) while it does in foreign countries.

I think perhaps because many people that are into Visual Kei tend to already be a part of a sub-culture that share similarities to visual Kei. If not, they're usually a nerd that then tries to belong to something by dressing like VK artists to try and fit in and be cool.

I use to be your typical rocker punk chick with black eye liner, torn jeans and band shirts. So when I started getting into Visual Kei, it wasn't that hard to start to drift towards a clothing style that emulated the bands. I was already doing that to some extent for some of the metal and punk artist I like so it wasn't that hard and seemed almost like the natural thing to do. Especially because I was a dumb teenager y'know.

As for JAY RAWK.

I think the reason why J-rock is used the most outside of Japan to describe Visual Kei bands is because Visual Kei is what is most popular outside of Japan. No one cares about the average looking band, everyone wants the bands that look like anime characters. I'm sure if more normal indie bands where as popular as Visual Kei with Western fans people would be describing them as J-rock too.

[Zeus 7997]

Ok, I think that's about it. I'd like to hear your thoughts. Have foreign fans 'misinterpreted' Visual Kei and created something that has nothing to do with the actual Japanese Visual Kei? Why does this gap exist?

Unequivocally, yes.

Note that if you're just starting out in the scene, you probably won't want to read this. It'll probably change how you think about the scene after you're done.

Taking the scene as one whole lump so I can generalize some characteristics, we as a whole cannot read or speak Japanese fluently, are not in the country and cannot visit the venues for live performances and do not usually have the funds to buy all the merchandise we desire. As a fandom, we are separated from the scene by several large degrees. When fans start out their trek of fandom through the scene, we assume certain things and fill in others based on what we've ascertained along the way. Some of these things include:

[*:243z2gob] The band members are famous, wealthy, etc.
[*:243z2gob] The band is as popular in Japan as it is over here
[*:243z2gob] Since there are so many people on this one webpage I visit, there must be an equal amount that live in Japan - ie: Visual Kei is popular in Japan
[*:243z2gob] They play music as a way to release their creativity
[*:243z2gob] Visual kei is about expressing one's feelings aesthetically 100% of the time
[*:243z2gob] Disbandments always happen for good reasons and don't happen often

etc, etc, etc...

The overseas visual kei fandom takes place mostly on online forums such as here, where people that assume some things to be true about the scene pass these ideas onto the new participants in the scene who then take these to be as fact and the entire framework of the visual kei movement boils down into how we as foreigners perceive the scene, which as you can tell from above isn't exactly how things go. Like I said, we mostly can't read or speak Japanese fluently, resort to Google Translate to get a rough gist of our favorite musician's blogs, can't go to the lives so we make do with pictures and photoshoots (ie. our focus is on the pictures, from what I've heard the general focus in Japan is on lives), and don't know many of the members personally, so naturally we spruce up what we do see to make it more palatable to our thoughts. It's how we all get hooked: initially what we see is so radical a departure from what we're used to seeing and hearing that we're interested in finding out more. Since a lot of us wander into this scene trying to get away from the "mainstream mess" of our native countries, we then expunge from our minds all of the negative qualities associated with visual kei and in its place put positive ones, which may either be exaggerated or completely fabricated, in order to assure ourselves that this is actually an ethereal movement and not a bunch of men wearing dresses and makeup.

The longer we're fans, the more our perceptions of things like what I have listed above are exploded before our eyes. We see that bands break up for absolutely no good reason. We see artists that we like before move on and join projects that turn out to be complete disasters. We begin to understand that money is an integral part of everyday basic operations of our artists. We do simple math and realize that if they can't fill a venue of 500 people consistently, that means they garner less than 500/130mil or 3.84615385 × 10^-6% of the population of Japan (.0000003% for those that aren't math people). I know that a lot of enthusiasm is lost amongst veterans of the scene because we've "seen it all" and the magic of it has dulled away for the most part.

So I wouldn't say it has nothing to do with the visual kei scene in Japan, but we've done fabricated a whole ecosystem for ourselves based off of what we've seen. It has good things and bad things to it too and it's the best possible scenario for persistent fandoms (I haven't been a hardcore fan for 2+ years now and look, I'm still here), but it's worth keeping in mind that not everything is as it seems.

We should attach a tagline that says "Visual Kei: Everything in Pictures May Appear More Perfect Than They Actually Are".

Now I'm just waiting for someone else to come along and tear me a new one.

[futoshi92 34]

The thread has actually a strong point. And what Zess wrote it sums it up. Sorry if I have written it before, but since Visual Kei is over-exposed in a stupid way, among Japanese music fandom outside Japan, as a result stereotypes and biased cliches are being formed.

I started listening to Japanese music in 2008. Everybody who has ever been into Japanese music, would know that there is an enormous amount of Japanese bands, that aren't visual kei, pop, (or what ever that many people tend to associate Japanese music with) have it's fanbase in homeland big. Also that vast majority does not listen to vk bands, barely ever has heard about. It's true that visual kei as a fashion is actually known and preety popular in Japan, however bands who derss up aren't.

If you talk about that "J-rock" term (and all that tendence of adding "j-" in front of type of music that a Japanese artist plays), it's a foolish, useless umbrella term that has no place near music. I've also concluded that it's in general used by people (averagely some kind of weeaboos) who for some hilarious reasons want to feel special with their music tastes. Also in Japan with no doubt they just call rock music "rock" no matter if it's from Japan, USA or any other counrty. Why isn't American rock called A-rock, Brazilian rock B-rock, Swedish metal S-metal or French rap F-rap? "Jrock" may stand for Jamaican rock as well. Jordanian rock. Or whatever

[Nyasagi 259]

I think everything are just culture differences and the language barrier. Most Japanese don't speak English, most foreigners don't speak Japanese. The music scene abroad doesn't have something like visual kei, so it's often misunderstood, people compare it to the reality they know and there isn't enough information about it. Also the fantasy image deceives them, vkei is mostly about a stage image after all. Japanese people aren't very open towards foreigners either, so it's difficult to know more about it.

There's nothing to be worried about though, because there are stupid stereotypes created by n00bs about everything and mostly people really interested in something know the truth.

[sai 868]

Honestly, I don't have any idea where to start. There are so many stereotypes and wrong impressions about the scene and everything around it it's sort of ridiculous. You will only realise this once you've been into the scene for a while, have expanded to other types of Japanese rock or when you're out of the weeaboo phase. I (and I think I won't be the only one) also once had this phase where I associated everything from Japan with Visual Kei. The musical genre for me was Visual Kei, not divided by other genres like pop-rock, symphonic metal, hard-rock etc.

Associating Japan with VK is a regular thing to do, logical, because it comes from Japan. However, it is not as popular as many people believe it to be. Most Japanese people won't even know it or dare not speak of it that they like it (I read that these people exist as well, correct me if I'm wrong here). For some reason here it is considered something more than it is in Japan. It's not because it's more special to us than it is to the Japanese (they find it as strange or unique as we do), it's just that some people get really dillusional because it's new and unique. I really don't know the right words for it, but it's started a trend which has resulted into weeaboos. I've read of enough people who study Japanese because of VK, anime or manga and not because they're interested in the culture, habbits or history of the country.

[Reizoko 0]

Thanks for the replies so far.

@futoshi92

While I don't disagree that adding 'j-' is kind of foolish, I've seen 'J-Rock' signs in Japanese CD shops, so it's a legit word, although it's used different in the foreign community as I explained in the OP.

Also, when talking about music I've been asked if I like J-Rock by a Japanese person, although this only happened once. But this person was definitely not talking about Visual Kei bands.

@Nyasagi

I wouldn't actually agree with Japanese people not being open about foreigners. Of course, there are people who aren't, but in general you are pretty welcome if you are white and speak Japanese as they don't speak English just like you said.

@all the others

To sum it up, all of you have your points. Nothing I really disagree with so far yet.

I especially like Zesshokus post about the illusions many foreign Visual Kei fans have, which is sad but true.

I haven't been active in the foreign Visual Kei scene for a couple of years, so today I browsed the forums a little bit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are bands like Acid Black Cherry and Golden Bomber not known very much?

Because those are two of the most popular Visual Kei Bands in Japan right now. I couldn't even find threads for them in MH.

So either I just didn't find them or there's also a pretty big difference in what's popular. I also noticed Kiryu seems to be not so well known in the foreign community, while it's not one of the most popular, but a rather popular band in japan.

I actually wonder how all the information about those indie bands gets into the foreign community.

I'm not familiar with recent Visual Kei Bands at all, basically I only know what's popular from mixi and from people I know, but there's a bunch of band names I read on MH today that probably even the more 'hardcore' Japanese fans don't know.

[Nyasagi 259]

Acid Black Cherry are rather known, but not very popular in my opinion. There are people who like them, but there are more popular bands.

Golden Bomber are quite known, mostly between girls who like their nakedness on the photos imo, but there are still more popular bands.

Kiryu have some fans, but I think they aren't that popular.

I don't listen to any of these bands myself xD. The most popular bands/artists are still Dir en Grey (I know they aren't vk, but they were and many vk fans like them), Gazette, Miyavi, Alice Nine. PS Company bands have the most fan(girl)s.

I actually wonder how all the information about those indie bands gets into the foreign community.

Sometimes I get peta from some band members. If they have samples on their site, I get interested. If they don't, I don't like samples or I can't buy the CD when I really like - I usually ignore them. There are also many threads about new bands on this forum and sometimes other people send me something... or someone posts their music in the download section and when I like it, I get interested.

I wouldn't actually agree with Japanese people not being open about foreigners. Of course, there are people who aren't, but in general you are pretty welcome if you are white and speak Japanese as they don't speak English just like you said.

Well, I know many people from many countries and I didn't have to learn their language to talk to them... so no, I wouldn't call it being open about foreigners if you have to learn Japanese to even talk to them about irrelevant things on the internet. If they wanted to open up, they would learn English.

[miyuu 40]

what i think

people who go to lives with altrernative bands,

punk bands,

local metal bands ,etc

and listen to not mainstream music, i think know very well how it is.

i think probably this is the way it is with vk too.

there is audience but you have to go to specific places to find it

and mainstream people don't care about it.

if all your life ,until you discovered vk, you only listened to mainstream music you can't understand,

but if you didn't and you searched for places for the music you like probably you get it.

i don't think it has any diference with any other non mainstream music

only that in other countries we don't have vk.

on the other hand i have no idea i don't live there.

there are vk artists that are more mainsteam and more knowned like hyde

and obviously some times visual kei is very close with being a host.

AND OMG vk is japanese rock too. of course i can say is j-rock, SINCE most vk bands play JAPANESE ROCK . so simple.

[Reizoko 0]

@Nyasagi

It's not that Japanese people don't want to learn English, it's quite the opposite.

They DO want to learn English.

The problem is that Japanese education system sucks, and I mean it really does.

If you knew how they are supposed to learn English (or anything, really) you would just facepalm.

The whole education system is about reproducing things 1:1. Not about logical thinking and such at all.

The average Japanese person who graduates High School doesn't speak English. At all.

That's how terrible it is.

[TheBistroButcher666 228]

I haven't been active in the foreign Visual Kei scene for a couple of years, so today I browsed the forums a little bit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are bands like Acid Black Cherry and Golden Bomber not known very much?

Because those are two of the most popular Visual Kei Bands in Japan right now. I couldn't even find threads for them in MH.

So either I just didn't find them or there's also a pretty big difference in what's popular. I also noticed Kiryu seems to be not so well known in the foreign community, while it's not one of the most popular, but a rather popular band in japan.

I've always notice that when it comes to what is popular, the Japanese fan following is the opposite from the West. For example the former UCP band E'm～grief～ was pretty popular among Western fans but if you watch live clips, hardly anyone in the audience for them. This is true for anime as well, it was either Outlaw Star or Trigun but they have large following of Western Otakus that still cosplay as characters from the shows but from what I understand they had incredibly low television ratings in Japan and was aired at some ridiculous hour at night (like 2am or whatever).

I think Zess sums it all up the best, I was originally posting from my cellphone but the point I was making is that since most Visual fans seem to already come from a goth, punk or some sort of sub-culture that is defined by how you dress and behave, it's almost natural for you to sort of try to do the same for Visual Kei because that's how you behaved with those sub-cultures.

@Nyasagi

It's not that Japanese people don't want to learn English, it's quite the opposite.

They DO want to learn English.

The problem is that Japanese education system sucks, and I mean it really does.

If you knew how they are supposed to learn English (or anything, really) you would just facepalm.

The whole education system is about reproducing things 1:1. Not about logical thinking and such at all.

The average Japanese person who graduates High School doesn't speak English. At all.

That's how terrible it is.

Funny you bring that up, I know people that have gotten into Jet to teach English AND DO NOT SPEAK ANY JAPANESE! Fucking art major I know got into Jet and went there to fuck around and try to live his dream of being a manga artist even though he can't even read Hiragana.

[miyuu 40]

@Nyasagi

It's not that Japanese people don't want to learn English, it's quite the opposite.

They DO want to learn English.

The problem is that Japanese education system sucks, and I mean it really does.

If you knew how they are supposed to learn English (or anything, really) you would just facepalm.

The whole education system is about reproducing things 1:1. Not about logical thinking and such at all.

The average Japanese person who graduates High School doesn't speak English. At all.

That's how terrible it is.

oh yes they make us in europe to learn english in school since 5 years old. you have to learn it.and you can't function in life with out it.

japanese i think they don't have english at all at school.

don't have to learn them & don't need them in their everyday life as much.

edit:i think they want to learn and like english very much

but nobody teaches it when you are kid and nobody cares and then you are old and it's a little late

[Reizoko 0]

@Nyasagi

It's not that Japanese people don't want to learn English, it's quite the opposite.

They DO want to learn English.

The problem is that Japanese education system sucks, and I mean it really does.

If you knew how they are supposed to learn English (or anything, really) you would just facepalm.

The whole education system is about reproducing things 1:1. Not about logical thinking and such at all.

The average Japanese person who graduates High School doesn't speak English. At all.

That's how terrible it is.

oh yes they make us in europe to learn english in school since 5 years old. you have to learn it.and you can't function in life with out it.

japanese i think they don't have english at all at school.

don't have to learn them & don't need them in their everyday life as much.

edit:i think they want to learn and like english very much

but nobody teaches it when you are kid and nobody cares and then you are old and it's a little late

They do learn English　starting in middle school, which means that when they graduate High School they have learned English for 6 years. And still, they don't speak a single word of English, that's how terrible the (English) education is over there.

@Arithmetica

Yes, I know there's a lot of English teachers in Japan that don't speak any Japanese. I don't know how exactly class is supposed to work, but I think they try and get native speakers because the average Japanese English teacher is terrible at English. If the teacher sucks, students can't learn anything.

[miyuu 40]

hmm then maybe also they don't need english in their everyday life as much as we do. ?

no motive to learn.

edit: seriously they don't say it's rock? i just read that. but what if they play rock?

[Maiku 4]

Of course the "scene" is different in Japan than it is to foreign fans. To me there is no scene. To me the scene is the bands and Monochrome Heaven and The Internet. The only band from Japan I saw live was Dir en Grey when they toured with Korn. And the performance of Kyo pretty much slaughtered my faith in the band for a while. Anyway, I don't really frequent any fan communities, I don't care about gossip or anything about the band members personal lives. All I care about is the music and the fact that they look pretty. To me that is all there is to visual kei. I'm sure it's different in places with more visual kei fans like California or wherever else they exist and places where bands actually tour (Europe.) But here in America if you live in between the cities and don't get out much the scene is on the internet. I don't really have anyone in real life that cares to listen to me talk about the bands I like or wanna hear the music I listen to when I'm not with people. I don't hide the fact that I listen to visual kei in anyway and people do think I'm weird. I've dressed visual kei and done my hair up and all kinds of things. (I still always want to but I can't afford to wear awesome outfits and have awesome styled hair all the time.) When I did dress that way I met a Japanese girl at a party(pseudo-modern-american-raves) [she actually turned out to be a Japanese woman but you know how slowly Japanese people age,] and I talked to her for a little while with my broken Japanoize and made her laugh a bunch and then we talked in english (she's apparently a DJ who spins acidtechno and is friends with a lot of my friends) and she told me I looked like I belonged in a visual kei band. I then told her in Japanese that I loved visual kei and she was really amazed that I even knew about it. I was surprised she even brought it up. She told me that most people that liked visual kei in Japan didn't really talk about it or show it and that it wasn't popular and that not many people listened to it. I told her about the giant fanbases on the internet and she got really amazed. Ahahahaha. I've never really had any illusions about visual kei. I see it for what it is. Fashion and music. I've always known that it wasn't as popular in Japan as it was here. The only thing I do know about visual kei is that I like it. 8D And to me that's all that matters. I feel like we internet communities of visual kei fans are almost like secret societies that just creep on this music from another country. Ahahaha.

dzkmQyPffNc

This song is almost like the band is mocking it's foreign fans. I don't really think most SuG fans catch that with this song. (Seriously fans of most PSC bands are the most delusional.) The song is directly asking "Why don't you have more fun?" and "Do you hate the domestic?" and clearly quotes phrases and terms used by most weebees. Even the title. The whole song is almost like it's shouting "HEY. WHY ARE YOU LISTENING TO THIS WHEN YOU COULD BE LISTENING TO MUSIC FROM YOUR OWN COUNTRY AND GOING OUT AND HAVING FUN AT REAL LIVE SHOWS AND ACTUALLY BE A PART OF SOMETHING INSTEAD OF OBSERVING FROM AFAR?" Ahahaha.

[miyuu 40]

wtf song is this. it's a torture to not be able see a band that you like and buy stuff ;____________;

I think perhaps because many people that are into Visual Kei tend to already be a part of a sub-culture that share similarities to visual Kei. If not, they're usually a nerd that then tries to belong to something by dressing like VK artists to try and fit in and be cool.

I use to be your typical rocker punk chick with black eye liner, torn jeans and band shirts. So when I started getting into Visual Kei, it wasn't that hard to start to drift towards a clothing style that emulated the bands. I was already doing that to some extent for some of the metal and punk artist I like so it wasn't that hard and seemed almost like the natural thing to do. Especially because I was a dumb teenager y'know.

oh this is what i meant

i mean i remember i used to search for places with audience and music that i liked.and when you listen for long, you know the specific places where people hang around. & you go to the lives .and meet people etc. so i think this fits to all non mainstream music.

you just have to find the places where same people like you go.

until you fed up when you grow older

(i never dressed vk or wanted . but i had passed the stupid dressing phase with punk & metal etc music.)

[ficsci 50]

Wha

I thought gyaru and gyaruo tend to be more into techno clubbing music lolololol (I mean that's what they seem to be most associated with, clubbing). Sure what music they listen to is their business, but you know, culture stereotype-wise.

But I won't be surprised if there are crossovers

Actually, I think gyaru & gyaruo are more associated with the yanki & host/hostess subculture, while visual rock scene is just another subculture that someone can be/not be into. I think in terms of demographics, visual kei musicians & fans are probably very diverse in background, compared to, for example, the gyaru subculture (which is mostly working class). Look it up, there are some online articles on studies of how the Japanese middle class is pretty off-ish with the gyaru fashion because it's associated with being yanki.

Also "visual kei" literally just means "visual style", Japanese people just like labeling things with [insert name]-kei. I don't think Japanese subculture/scenes are as strictly coded as foreign fans might think. I have a strong feeling that "oshare kei" is really just because those bands happen to be more "oshare"(stylish) than other visual bands, but duh oshare bands are still visual bands. Or like some bands are "Nagoya kei" just because duh they're from Nagoya, and they have their trends in rock music style over there (so people can just stop effing debating stupidly about whether the studs or 9GOATS are "nagoya-kei" or not, because that's not the point of calling something "nagoya kei"). Another example, some foreign lolita fans don't want to call lolita "cosplay" and tend to identify themselves as "we are lolita (people)". But I think a lot of lolita fans in Japan might not actually define their identities as "I am a lolita", and don't mind calling it "cosplay" because "cosplay"="costume play", so if you put on these costumes and do a make belief "we are Victorian children today", then duh it's cosplay. From my observation, this latter attitude seems to be true at least for the bangya scene, because I think their attitude towards it is more like "I'm going to go see a visual band today, so I'm going to celebrate the cosplay/visual subculture & wear lolita".

Also, back to visual kei, there are probably lots of crossover connections between musicians who play in visual bands and those who don't. It's just that the ones in visual bands are aware of that fans expect them to do "stuff visual bands do" in live shows & events, plus there are record labels & live venues that are more associated with visual kei obviously.

@maiku about the whole people in Japan not really listening to visual bands. Not surprised because most of it is indies, minus the really big ones that are already major and chart-topping, like Nightmare and SID. Like everywhere else, most people only listen to the mainstream stuff. But then again, there are a lot of fans (especially guys) who don't come to the live shows & events because I think those events has the stigma of being "for bangya who want to squee about their favorite VK bands". I think for bands whose fanbase have less of this atmosphere (especially when the bands are bigger or are just known as "that badass band that is really good and rock fans can't help but love", maybe like deadman), then the male fans start coming out to live shows.

[ficsci 50]

I've read of enough people who study Japanese because of VK, anime or manga and not because they're interested in the culture, habbits or history of the country.

But hey, if I happened to be a huge fan of Scandinavian metal bands, I'd probably love to study their language too. Know what I mean? (I mean, I initially learned English from listening to songs in English). Besides pop-culture always have some ties to the greater picture of history & culture.

[ficsci 50]

@futoshi92

While I don't disagree that adding 'j-' is kind of foolish, I've seen 'J-Rock' signs in Japanese CD shops, so it's a legit word, although it's used different in the foreign community as I explained in the OP.

Also, when talking about music I've been asked if I like J-Rock by a Japanese person, although this only happened once. But this person was definitely not talking about Visual Kei bands.

I agree

One interesting thing when I watched Plastic Tree's Merry Go Around the World DVD, this one time when a black guy ran into Pura in the airport and asked "are you in a band? what kind of music do you play?" Tadashi answered "Japanese rock", not just "rock" or "alternative rock". I may be wrong, but I strongly feel that people from non-Western countries who are involved in their own local music scenes would want to not just copy exactly how the the Western bands sound like, but invent their own signature sound that is uniquely "Japanese", or "Filipino", or "Indian", etc. I think K-pop is still kinda failing at this because I think most of K-pop sounds like American pop/hip-hop/R&B, and don't even begin with their non-existent rock scene. But to me J-pop and J-rock actually do sound different from western pop & rock (you know, by adjusting to the Japanese sense of aesthetics). Hindi pop is also awesome at this fusing their own tastes with foreign influences (duh, last time I was in India, there was this long, repetitive hit "rock" song that sounds too much like Hindi pop and is a Bollywood soundtrack).

[sai 868]

I've read of enough people who study Japanese because of VK, anime or manga and not because they're interested in the culture, habbits or history of the country.

But hey, if I happened to be a huge fan of Scandinavian metal bands, I'd probably love to study their language too. Know what I mean? (I mean, I initially learned English from listening to songs in English). Besides pop-culture always have some ties to the greater picture of history & culture.

That wasn't exactly what I meant, but I can understand the confusion. There is nothing wrong with wanting to learn about the language as a part of broading your horizons, it just leaves people with wrong impressions. Most people who join for the VK, anime or manga drop out quite quickly (or so I heard from students who study Japanese) because they have their eyes fixated on something that just isn't going to happen. They get wrong impressions and often find out it's more than just related to your obsession with VK or any other export products.

[futoshi92 34]

I agree

One interesting thing when I watched Plastic Tree's Merry Go Around the World DVD, this one time when a black guy ran into Pura in the airport and asked "are you in a band? what kind of music do you play?" Tadashi answered "Japanese rock", not just "rock" or "alternative rock". I may be wrong, but I strongly feel that people from non-Western countries who are involved in their own local music scenes would want to not just copy exactly how the the Western bands sound like, but invent their own signature sound that is uniquely "Japanese", or "Filipino", or "Indian", etc. I think K-pop is still kinda failing at this because I think most of K-pop sounds like American pop/hip-hop/R&B, and don't even begin with their non-existent rock scene. But to me J-pop and J-rock actually do sound different from western pop & rock (you know, by adjusting to the Japanese sense of aesthetics). Hindi pop is also awesome at this fusing their own tastes with foreign influences (duh, last time I was in India, there was this long, repetitive hit "rock" song that sounds too much like Hindi pop and is a Bollywood soundtrack).

Let's not forget that, music overall has no nationality, overall. If you talk about sound that has Indian, Korean or Japanse sound, it is correct when there are traditional instrunents used. Personally IMO rock music along with other known genres is something universal.

The part with Plastic Tree suprised me though. I'm not the band's fan, but I once came across on their info, that they took a big influence from bands like Radiohead or The Cure.

However these generic stereotyping terms (I mean Jrock, Jpop and Visual Kei, or even) are just massively overused when it comes to Japanese music. The reason why lot of pepole, including me, think, that this term is foolish is because under that name I usually see either bands that have made an opening/ending song for a popular anime series or visual kei. Some people hear it, they really say that it "represents" Japanese national sound *facepalm*. I really don't get it. Japanese music is trurely more than all of this, since if you take a close look you will find there a wide arrange of genres, like rap, rock, funk, metal, punk-rock and so on. Despite everything, people who aren't any familiar with Japanese music somehow buy all these ignorant stereotypes about music and it's fans, as a result giving us all bad name, like saying that anyone who listens to Japanese bands is a crazy otaku freak, which just disturbs me.

[TheBistroButcher666 228]

I agree

One interesting thing when I watched Plastic Tree's Merry Go Around the World DVD, this one time when a black guy ran into Pura in the airport and asked "are you in a band? what kind of music do you play?" Tadashi answered "Japanese rock", not just "rock" or "alternative rock". I may be wrong, but I strongly feel that people from non-Western countries who are involved in their own local music scenes would want to not just copy exactly how the the Western bands sound like, but invent their own signature sound that is uniquely "Japanese", or "Filipino", or "Indian", etc. I think K-pop is still kinda failing at this because I think most of K-pop sounds like American pop/hip-hop/R&B, and don't even begin with their non-existent rock scene. But to me J-pop and J-rock actually do sound different from western pop & rock (you know, by adjusting to the Japanese sense of aesthetics). Hindi pop is also awesome at this fusing their own tastes with foreign influences (duh, last time I was in India, there was this long, repetitive hit "rock" song that sounds too much like Hindi pop and is a Bollywood soundtrack).

Let's not forget that, music overall has no nationality, overall. If you talk about sound that has Indian, Korean or Japanse sound, it is correct when there are traditional instrunents used. Personally IMO rock music along with other known genres is something universal.

The part with Plastic Tree suprised me though. I'm not the band's fan, but I once came across on their info, that they took a big influence from bands like Radiohead or The Cure.

However these generic stereotyping terms (I mean Jrock, Jpop and Visual Kei, or even) are just massively overused when it comes to Japanese music. The reason why lot of pepole, including me, think, that this term is foolish is because under that name I usually see either bands that have made an opening/ending song for a popular anime series or visual kei. Some people hear it, they really say that it "represents" Japanese national sound *facepalm*. I really don't get it. Japanese music is trurely more than all of this, since if you take a close look you will find there a wide arrange of genres, like rap, rock, funk, metal, punk-rock and so on. Despite everything, people who aren't any familiar with Japanese music somehow buy all these ignorant stereotypes about music and it's fans, as a result giving us all bad name, like saying that anyone who listens to Japanese bands is a crazy otaku freak, which just disturbs me.

Not only that, the reason why I know that it is used in Japan is mainly so shoppers will know, oh hey this band sings in Japanese. Lets say for example the US is a French speaking country with most people only speaking French and I went to the record store and wanted to buy something in French. It just helps because oh hey look this band is labeled as F-Rock so I know I'm getting something in French.

I just dislike J-rock being used because like you said it's overused and I feel like does a disservice to the artist or band. If I try to introduce Gallhammer or Sigh to a metal fan and said LOL DIS IS J-ROCK do you think they'll want to listen to it? No, because lets face it, J-Rock is now more or less associated with weeaboos and otaku culture and most people will think of this when they hear someone say J-Rock.

[Yasupon 18]

dzkmQyPffNc

This song is almost like the band is mocking it's foreign fans. I don't really think most SuG fans catch that with this song. (Seriously fans of most PSC bands are the most delusional.) The song is directly asking "Why don't you have more fun?" and "Do you hate the domestic?" and clearly quotes phrases and terms used by most weebees. Even the title. The whole song is almost like it's shouting "HEY. WHY ARE YOU LISTENING TO THIS WHEN YOU COULD BE LISTENING TO MUSIC FROM YOUR OWN COUNTRY AND GOING OUT AND HAVING FUN AT REAL LIVE SHOWS AND ACTUALLY BE A PART OF SOMETHING INSTEAD OF OBSERVING FROM AFAR?" Ahahaha.

As if I couldn't dislike SuG any more!

[Gizorz 24]

I've read of enough people who study Japanese because of VK, anime or manga and not because they're interested in the culture, habbits or history of the country.

But hey, if I happened to be a huge fan of Scandinavian metal bands, I'd probably love to study their language too. Know what I mean? (I mean, I initially learned English from listening to songs in English). Besides pop-culture always have some ties to the greater picture of history & culture.

That wasn't exactly what I meant, but I can understand the confusion. There is nothing wrong with wanting to learn about the language as a part of broading your horizons, it just leaves people with wrong impressions. Most people who join for the VK, anime or manga drop out quite quickly (or so I heard from students who study Japanese) because they have their eyes fixated on something that just isn't going to happen. They get wrong impressions and often find out it's more than just related to your obsession with VK or any other export products.

Agreeing with Sai here, my university dropped the anime course from the Japanese program the year I started, and you won't believe how many people dropped out (after less than half a year) because they were disappointed about having to study history and not getting to watch anime all day..

About the whole gyaru thing, I've always been under the impression that it wasn't gyaru turning to visual kei, but bangya dressing gyaru in order to appeal to the bandmembers and become tsunagari..

[Glamour 4]

What I learned about Visual Kei when I went to my first live show around a decade ago:

The fan base (that attend live shows at least) consists of over 99% female.