please, when did deg stop being v kei?

[Mei 276]

some ppl on fb r saying it was when they released vulgar, which i think is (completely) wrong. i think it was while tmoab. am i wrong?

[Pretsy 1343]

WtD - 2005

or to be exact, right after Saku/The Final

[Mei 276]

^well, i was going to say wtd, but i remembered saku was pretty v kei XD

[Jigsaw9 6783]

I'd say The Marrow of a Bone was their first "not really visual" release. Though they/Kyo looked pretty visual in the Clever Sleazoid PV (but I think that preceded the album almost a year or something?).

So yeah, I'd say from TMoaB.

[Zeus 7997]

I would go with Withering to death. era as well but pushing it off to TMoAB is also understandable. I say WtD. because even though they were wearing make-up, they weren't expressly visual. Not every artist that wears make-up in the Japanese music scene should be associated with visual kei immediately. This is probably not the best comparison in the world and I'll get shot for it profusely but here we go:

This is Kyo circa WtD era:

This is Manson circa whenever era:

To me they seem to be wearing the same type of make-up and going for the same "look". Most people would be quick to jump to calling the first visual kei and the second glam metal and you could do that, or you could just call both metal artists that use make-up to accentuate their features and you wouldn't be far off either.

The reason why everyone points to the six Ugly/VULGAR era as the split is because that's when all the earlier visual era fans threw a shitfit because they were no longer wearing ridiculous wigs and outfits and strutting around in thigh high bitch boots. Claiming their music got "Americanized too much" was just an easy way out of admitting their shallow attachment to the band (which I think is why they began to pull away in the first place). Compare Kisou to six Ugly/VULGAR and you see a natural progression. Had they stayed as ridiculously visual, they probably would have released a very similar album and all of those same fans would be salivating over it calling it "their greatest work ever". The cognitive dissonance of some fans are astounding really.

The problem with defining when they stopped being visual is that the definition of visual kei is hazy and no one can ever come to a consensus on it. I prefer to go by what the band says and if the band identifies themselves as visual I'll go with it no matter how visual or not they may look. They stopped associating themselves with the scene at that point, which is why I cast my vote for WtD.

[nekkichi 6043]

> To me they seem to be wearing the same type of make-up and going for the same "look".

Kyo looks like if Rammstein still had some hair and were working with a decent stylist, nothing really visual about him.

His Dead Tree PV make up is something more VK, with fake eye-lashes and stuff; Clever Sleazoid look is also something vaguely VK related

(mostly like a late attempt to bring back some of their earlier fans)

Manson's direction is more employed by Unsraw, Lynch, with Deadman being the best example so far.

Imo they stopped associating themselves with VK scene when US touring started (around MotB?), even if Japanese concerts were still getting more glamorous outfits and stuff.

[LIDL 692]

if what you mean leaving VK is not using any heavy make up,

or any visual effects.

They started that from ASOM single, until they started MOO tour recently at least

Which they started to use some visual again.

[miyuu 40]

i believe at and after The Marrow of a Bone

not only the visual kei look ,the music started changing also then.

edit: i can see why some say Withering to death

but for me the real and big change to get out completely of visual kei was when i said.

(Withering to death is like a middle era when old fans and new fans can like them at the same time ,

not to mention it has final & Merciless Cult ,some of the most amazing songs that everyone can like. even people who don't like deg)

[TheBistroButcher666 228]

The way I look at it, is that Vulgar and Withering to Death are two albums that mark major shifts away from Visual Kei with Marrow of the Bone completely dropping any ties to Visual Kei. However, Withering to Death was when it felt that they began to really tone it down because during Vulgar I thought that they where still pretty visual.

[nekkichi 6043]

^ vulgar era diru is one of the best things ever happened in VK imo

amazing visuals, great music, probably the highest VK shock factor, backed up by good budgets and stuff

[Zeus 7997]

^ vulgar era diru is one of the best things ever happened in VK imo

amazing visuals, great music, probably the highest VK shock factor, backed up by good budgets and stuff

NOTE: The following isn't directed at anyone in this thread. I just need to vent my anger and I've been waiting 5 years to do it.

This. All of it. I never understood why fans count Kisou as their last visual kei release. VULGAR was definitely all types of visual. Maybe not this kind of visual:

or this kind of visual:

or even this kind:

but this is still pretty damn visual:

and so is this:

I was going to identify these pictures to show the eras apart but my memory is shaky and this band has such an extensive catalog of PV's with so many small intricacies that they change from one outfit to another that I can't be damned to figure out which ones go where anymore. Also, they're hardly ever featured for extensive periods of times in their videos even when they were visual, so looking at videos to place them is difficult too. Putting all that together, I never did/do understand why people obsess over visual era Dir en grey. The visual kei days weren't the "glory days" by any means. They were an awful, awful time flooded with flame wars, hyper-elitism and weeaboos who so desperately wanted to be Kyo's tsunagari yet couldn't shell out 60 bucks every two years to pick up the new album.

To this day, I still cannot figure out why everyone flipped out right after Kisou. It's not even as if Dir en grey put up a sign on their OHP saying "hey guys, we're not going to be visual anymore". They announced six Ugly, fans were happy, fans saw the artwork and got angry. Fans heard the music and renounced their fandom. Some people say it's because they "started sounding American" but to me they started incorporating Western influences as early as Macabre and Kisou leaned even more in that direction. The only thing they did different on six Ugly was that they changed the tuning of their guitars, which is the same tuning employed by literally dozens of visual bands then and now (and which they had been doing since GAUZE, which was completely in E-flat). Others say it's because Kyo started screaming more like Western artists, but what do you call songs like Pink Killer and Hydra? Is it because they started sounding nu-metal? MUCC was nu-metal for the longest and visual fans ate that shit up. Some others would claim they've been fans forever and have you believe that they started going Adidas-kei immediately after Kisou and that they were totes glamorous 100% before then. That's not the case and here's why:

I can tell you for certainty that the last visual picture I put up was from the Filth-era and the one after it was from the OBSCURE era, so logic states that if the first one was pretty visual and the second one was pretty visual, the era in between must be pretty visual. It's also ridiculous to even think that they dropped them for one release, because no band does that. So there, we've proven that they were still visual around the six Ugly era using a variant of the Squeeze Theorem.

So Mei, you can go back, paste everything I just wrote to them and have them explain to you (or me) exactly how they stopped being visual at Kisou when they were still visual during VULGAR. If any of them even dare to try and tell you that they weren't visual around the VULGAR era, ask them what they think of nagoya-kei, because bands like cocklobin and Calmando Qual employ similar looks to the last picture and they're widely considered visual (and here are some pics if you need them):

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/500/4 ... Qual+0.png

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/500/3 ... e__002.jpg

As I said before, they started pulling away after Kisou but (and this is my personal interpretation) they simply started going towards a more mature look and to quit wearing ridiculous dresses and dying their hair 5 or 6 different colors per CD release. That eventually evolved into them officially severing all ties with the scene at The Marrow of a Bone. Like pretty much any other visual kei band that goes major, they dropped the look slowly. I have proven this.

QED bitches.

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

They look awesome in those two top pictures :V . The third one looks like where Megaromania got their inspiration for these two costume sets: 1 , 2; the second one is probably where Ru:natic's red-haired guitarist got his look from. Interesting how everything kind of stems back to something else, and even then this influence was influenced by something else before it.

Also, Zess is good at persuasion.

[LIDL 692]

whoa, Zess slays! txt it!

yes i agree, i think VULGAR is still VK

i mean, hah, look at their music videos from that era

still heavy visuals through and through.

[nekkichi 6043]

This. All of it. I never understood why fans count Kisou as their last visual kei release.

because they're sillie

their looks in all PVs for the album (kasumi, drain away, child prey and obscure) are pure VK at its finest;

last picture you've posted is from the final promo set, and it's STILL really visual.

[Guest Magatsu]

to be honnest.

Hibiki (Calmando Qual)

doesn't even really get what is visual kei. and what is good visual kei.

He did ask fans a lot what good visual kei bands are.

But yeah.. it doesn't mean if they are under starwave that they are 100% visual kei.

To me.. Calmando Qual is a Gothic/Dark band with amazing music. but no Visual Kei. at least if you look at the looks.

If you go look at the music.. I say yes.. everything before the last 3 singles by starwave records.

But the charity song is VK again. haha

and so long as Hibiki can't answer the question.. if they are REALLY VK. I won't call them VK.

about Diru

As so long Diru got deep songs who really touch your heart then they are still Visual Kei.

and.. beside that real VK is dead anyway. a band never stay.. visual in cloths.. because they all go casual after years.

a visual kei band is for ever visual kei.

because they always can go back to Visual Kei clothes!

[LIDL 692]

and so long as Hibiki can't answer the question.. if they are REALLY VK. I won't call them VK.

sometimes it's shouldn't always be said, it's just what you see.

As far as i know X-Japan never call themselves VK either

they call themselves speed metal band.

But still their looks makes them branded as VK, and a legend at that

It's the essence of glam and shocking value,

inspired by gothic, androgynous and glam rock movement in the West at that time.

As so long Diru got deep songs who really touch your heart then they are still Visual Kei.

If it's like that, every Japanese bands is a VK too, no?

It's not about touching a heart, VK is more to the look.

And any band can play any genres in this scene, and can still call themselves VK

Visual looks has it's own sub-genres also, kote kei, oshare, nagoya kei, shibuya kei, eroguro etc etc etc

So shouldn't always heavy make ups, since shibuya kei isn't even having heavy smokey eye make ups

but it's just how you dress to represent yourself.

And with Diru, they have been trying some of this genre.

Not just heavy gore or tranny lolita looks VK we know today.

They have been having Oshare looks with Jessica, and Taiyou no Ao also, for example

But i hope you were just being sarcastic with this one.

[Guest Magatsu]

laugh...

and what if Diru will make a change? if they would go back to their old style.. then how would you call Diru?

Then people will go on and say agian!!

It's VISUAL KEI!!!!

beside that, you can call so many bands visual kei.

even bands from oversea!

Even LADY GAGA = visual.

[LIDL 692]

^ that is how it will happen actually, yes

Visual kei is not a music genre, it is the looks.

And visual is not monopoly of VK artists only.

Closest example, Ziyoou Vachi, they are being visual but not visual kei.

Because they are not associated with the scene.

Many death metal and black metal bands being visual, but they are not VK.

VK have their own codes for dress up to be called as one.

But have the same point for attention grabbing/shock value.

Just face it, every music genre have their own dress code.

They have their own visual statement. And they're not VK.

but this has gone Out Of the topic.

So i will stop it here. But i hope you got the point.

[Guest Magatsu]

you also did answer the question from WHEN Diru did stop being visual kei.

beside that.. VK got dress code.. so we even can call every visual band VISUAL KEI. we can call them visual but not always KEI too.

So yeah.. let's say..

Diru is still visual just not Kei anymore after they did go casual!

But.. that's just up how they will present them with their looks, if they bring new stuff or how they show up at gigs!

It will be always a surprise!

[MY BFF HEIDI 7]

lmao

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

First off, "kei" actually has a meaning. Taken from a dictionary:

系: 1: system; lineage; group

That has nothing to do with whatever it is you're trying to argue since "kei" has nothing to do with dressing up. "Visual-kei" is simply an umbrella term used to group artists who dress up in a particular manner and, most importantly, associate themselves with that scene. Anyway, that's enough with word semantics: since Dir en Grey lightened up their visuals, changed their musical style to be completely different from how they originated, switched to a different (and non-visual) record label (or labels, I'm not sure since I am no expert on their history), and began to play shows in bigger and better arenas that had no association with anything visual-kei at all, it was more than clear that at one point the band, or someone else influencing them, decided that it was going to break all ties with the scene. You can use performance visuals, like makeup or wild stage antics, without being visual-kei. In fact, makeup and costumes are by no means native to just a small portion of the Japanese rock indies scene.

We most absolutely cannot call every band that doesn't dress in street clothes "visual-kei." 女王蜂's members dress up in a style that is more true to older visual-kei than most modern bands do, but they have absolutely no relation to the scene at all. Same goes for Hystoic Vein. Please read up on these performance styles and genres and rethink that statement:

-Glam Rock

-Punk Cabaret

-Corpsepaint

-Gothic Rock

-Shock Rock

These, by all means, are not the only alternatives to "visual-kei" that use costumes. These all have influenced visual-kei and are still around today but have absolutely no relation to the movement. I've also seen the term "Visual" be used to describe Japanese punk and metal bands from the late 80's and early 90's (like X, Aion, etc) that are pretty much the quintessential proto-vk bands, but the only people I've seen use that are elitist douche-bags from Chile.

I think that saying that they're "shock rock" would be more appropriate than saying they're "visual," since that doesn't really hold any connotations to anyone who doesn't know what visual-kei is (which is most people). However, that genre is often associated with genres that Dir en Grey does not play (as far as I am aware. When I hear "Shock Rock," I think Marilyn Manson, not nu-metal / sludge / post-rock / whatever metal), so that isn't a great description either. If you really need to say something about the fact that they used to dress up and are kind of stylized at the moment, you can just say that they're a metal band with heavy use of shock value.

Also, I doubt they'd ever just start considering themselves VK again for a ~surprise~, especially since Visual-kei is often associated with poor music, horny musicians, and the current cash cows of the hour, as depicted here.

/*Just a side-note: there are a few bands who dress highly similar to visual-kei bands, are on record labels often associated with VK projects, release material in a similar manner to VK bands, and insist that they aren't visual-kei at all. This is mostly directed at BLOOD, who swears that their 4th period isn't VK even though every member dresses up with the same vk hallmarks as most gawfy vk bands, is made up of members from other visual-kei bands, are on a VK label (or sister label. Not sure if Kiwi moved them to the label that actually does something), but swears that they aren't visual-kei. Then there are European bands who feel that they are VK even though there isn't a scene outside of Japan. The point of this blurb is to point out that there are a few random outliers.*/

[nekkichi 6043]

beside that, you can call so many bands visual kei.

even bands from oversea!

Even LADY GAGA = visual.

pls stop or, even better, flee over @ facebook.com/direngrey

[Yasupon 18]

Peace pretty much summed it up well.

[Neon 6]

The Marrow of a Bone , Thats my option

[Tony 1]

Their style of visual changed dramatically when 'Six Ugly' came out - more modern, left the 80s/90s glam-visual looks behind. Vulgar/WTD-era was their best visual period with their strongest PVs to date.

But they didn't stop it completly until Marrow of a Bone. It was toned down after time - their looks got more 'normal' with each picture and PV they released. Almost like they had planned to phase it out from Six Ugly.

What's interesting to note is that Kyo always seemed more 'visual' than the others in the later part of this period -

if you look at their Saku PV, this one of Kyo's most famous visual looks. Yet it wasn't for Kyo's presence and their use of make-up, the rest of the band barely looks visual.

Same goes for Kodou PV as well. Take Kyo out of the equation and things suddenly seem more normal (although this is probably one of the best pictures of the band):

Here's a good one - were they still visual in the Ryoujoku no ame video? Were the promo pics for MOAB and the GRIEF PV when it completly stopped?