Would you stop reading lyric & interview translations...

[Aya 91]

if an artist you like requested that illegal translations be stopped?

I hope this topic is okay. I thought it'd be interesting to hear what other international fans have to say on this subject.

I'm not a fan of Versailles, so I just found out that Kamijo did exactly this - he wants his fans to stop translating copyrighted works, including interviews and song lyrics. The only things he wants translated are free materials such as promotional news and blog + twitter posts.

http://kamijo.syncl.jp/?p=diary&di=916562

Wow! Yes, while it's technically illegal to translate copyright material, I never imagined an artist would come out and stay to stop translating these things.

To me, this is a stab in the back for international fans. He says he's doing it out of concern for his fans - he doesn't want them getting in trouble with the copyright holders... but to me, it sounds more like the move of a copyright nazi (at best) or a xenophobic (at worse).

Even though copyright is extremely strict in Japan, I don't see them going after translators if they're just translating media and not actually sharing the scans, music or videos. Then again... I remember hearing that Japanese fans who tweeted song lyrics got in trouble for doing that. So... who knows.

There is such a small line between copyright and trying to cut off your fans from enjoying what you create. Personally, I will always feel that non-profit fan translations are harmless and much more beneficial for musicians. It will only hurt them to ask their international fans to stop translating copyright material.

[Seimeisen 4406]

WHAT!? Seriously? Song lyrics I could understand (but currently don't care much about), but interviews too? That's steep! I honestly have no ability to comprehend why that's necessary.

[Aya 91]

WHAT!? Seriously? Song lyrics I could understand (but currently don't care much about), but interviews too? That's steep! I honestly have no ability to comprehend why that's necessary.

Exactly! It's too extreme. All translation are the same to me, so I don't understand any of it. Aside from the fact that it's "illegal" - I don't understand why it's such a bad thing.

[Gizorz 24]

Lol no I wouldn't stop translating, especially lyrics, until magazines and cd booklets provide official translation (which isn't gonna happen unless it's a european release anyway).

I think maybe with Versailles (and correct me if I'm wrong) the issue is that their streetteams have official status and maybe the band itself can get in trouble with the magazines? Idk...

But yeah interviews I understand, but lyrics? You don't want your international fans to understand what your songs are about? Really?

I remember though that MasaKarasu (old Miyavi streetteam) got in trouble once for putting up lyrics as well, but in that case it was enough to just remove the Japanese lyrics and leave the translations and romaji... Damn Kamijo if you're worse than psc...

[Aya 91]

...until magazines and cd booklets provide official translation (which isn't gonna happen unless it's a european release anyway).

Exactly... 98% of the time they're not going to translate it themselves and 99.99999% of the time they're not going to translate it into every language needed.

He didn't stress song lyrics as much as interviews, but he DID include them in the off-limits stuff. So, yep, it seems like he doesn't want his fans to understand what his songs are about.

I didn't know that about their streat teams, that could be an issue. Plus, I've heard that Kamijo feels very strongly about upholding copyright, so that might play into it too.

It does sound like Kamijo can rival PSC...

[LIDL 692]

LOL NO. Did he wish everyone to understand Kanji?

For once Japanese is not that important to begin with,

compared to French or Chinese for instance.

Personally i won't have problems, since i understood Japanese.

But i know there is many more people who don't.

And are like myself,

will enjoy a song more when we understand what the singer trying to speak with their lyrics.

And that can be troublesome.

Besides, it can help people who are trying to learn their language, too.

I said bugger off tbh. Getting big headed i see!

[Number Girl 48]

No, and I think that is awful that people are getting in trouble over that kind of shit. Yeah, I can understand it from a copyright view - the lyrics are the band's property and the interviews I'm guessing are property of the journalist/publisher/whatever - but that doesn't change the fact it is a really . . . dumb, to say the least.

Although I hardly ever read many interviews or lyrics, I do see the value in them from a foreign fan standpoint and I appreciate it any time someone takes the time out of their day to translate. Not many artists provide English translations in their booklets if they include lyrics at all. I've never been against it unless someone is using it for profit or if they are claiming the content as their own/withholding proper credits.

Edit: I'm probably going to reserve wrath and judgement on Kamijo specifically. I read his message more thoroughly and I think he handled the delivery pretty well. It's not like he was insulting foreigners or called us "shit man" or compare us to various zoo animals, etc.

[Jigsaw9 6783]

No, and I think that is awful that people are getting in trouble over that kind of shit. Yeah, I can understand it from a copyright view - the lyrics are the band's property and the interviews I'm guessing are property of the journalist/publisher/whatever - but that doesn't change the fact it is a really . . . dumb, to say the least.

Although I hardly ever read many interviews or lyrics, I do see the value in them from a foreign fan standpoint and I appreciate it any time someone takes the time out of their day to translate. Not many artists provide English translations in their booklets if they include lyrics at all. I've never been against it unless someone is using it for profit or if they are claiming the content as their own/withholding proper credits.

My thoughts exactly.

[sai 868]

I read about this on KAMIJO's blog a few days ago (I think I mentioned this issue in the mini-chat as well) but I think it's utterly ridiculous. I can understand copyright claims but these copyright nazis are taking it to a whole new level.

The fact I like most of my favourite bands as much as I do is because, apart from their great music, I started to appreciate and respect these people due too their lyrics and personalities that they reflected in interviews. Perhaps BUCK-TICK is a bad example because they don't interact with foreign fans that much, so I'll give D as an example. D has also toured Europe twice, has opened their fanclub for overseas fans, they translate their facebook messages into English for them etc. Not once have I heard ASAGI complain about interview translations or lyrics translation. He even once said he was happy that his lyrics could reach so many people from different countries, so I don't really get KAMIJO's problem. I in any case wouldn't stop reading these translations.

[Aion 184]

Well, being a former journalist, I can understand Kamijo... When you arranged an interview with someone, put work in it, and it's blatantly copied on another site, it's just plagiarism. A direct translation of said interview is just the same...

If it were a summarized text of the interview or anything like that, it doesn't matter that much I guess, as long as there is a source mentioned...

In my early years as an editor for a website (10+ years ago) I also did some direct translations (English -> Dutch) and put them on the website I worked for at the time. Didn't last long and I got contacted by the original source and they forced me to remove that content... I was a beginner back then and learned my lesson that way...

If you just don't do a direct translation and write the said stuff in another manner, you can use direct quotes as long as you link directly to the original source...

simply put, direct translations = plagiarism, direct translations without the mention of a source might even be illegal...

Plagiarism is a BIG NONO in the journalism industry, let alone in college and the likes...

It's been done to some stuff I wrote. After long calling and mailing with some people, I arranged a interview with Hideo Kojima, talked with him about some stuff and had a nice talk with him. Put the interview online and 3 days later I saw a direct copy of my work on a French site, talking like it was that guy personally interviewing Kojima without any mention of the site I worked for, let alone the mention of it originally being a Dutch article...

completely stopping it would be impossible, but at least bring the matter to light is the least that can be done...

But why this has to come from Kamijo and his management...

as for lyrics, that's a whole 'nother business =)

[susel 31]

Actually I can see where he's coming from. Interviews do belong to other parties and not the band, so translating interviews theoritically is doing more harm copyright-wise than translating lyrics. They might oversee an illegal treatment of their products but those interviews don't belong to them, so it kind of makes sense.

I don't understand why everyone is making such a big deal out of this though. I mean we do upload/download, share music, scans, etc., we did so since god knows when and we'll definitely do this in the future. Same goes with translations. No difference for me, safe for a huge sparkly love that I feel towards all my translators ♥

The fact I like most of my favourite bands as much as I do is because, apart from their great music, I started to appreciate and respect these people due too their lyrics and personalities that they reflected in interviews. Perhaps BUCK-TICK is a bad example because they don't interact with foreign fans that much, so I'll give D as an example. D has also toured Europe twice, has opened their fanclub for overseas fans, they translate their facebook messages into English for them etc. Not once have I heard ASAGI complain about interview translations or lyrics translation. He even once said he was happy that his lyrics could reach so many people from different countries, so I don't really get KAMIJO's problem. I in any case wouldn't stop reading these translations.

Sure there are huge personality diferences between Kamijo and Asagi but there's one point we mustn't oversee in this case: Asagi has always been his own God and master, carefully changing labels, etc. I guess D has more rights over their songs and lyrics than Versailles. The later's politics have always been more strict. And well, D just handles their overseas politics better.

Same can be seen within PSC. While there's always some fuss in the Gazette fandom featuring foreign fans, Dauto has translated one of their lyrics into 10 languages to show their support to foreign fans. They even made a Chinese version of one of their songs for their show in Taiwan. So I can't deny it's all up to the band, but you should keep in mind that not all of them have such compliant management.

And it's not like they can go all 'Yes! do translate our interviews! We appreciate you breaking a copyright law!', right?

[Gizorz 24]

Well, being a former journalist, I can understand Kamijo... When you arranged an interview with someone, put work in it, and it's blatantly copied on another site, it's just plagiarism. A direct translation of said interview is just the same...

If it were a summarized text of the interview or anything like that, it doesn't matter that much I guess, as long as there is a source mentioned...

In my early years as an editor for a website (10+ years ago) I also did some direct translations (English -> Dutch) and put them on the website I worked for at the time. Didn't last long and I got contacted by the original source and they forced me to remove that content... I was a beginner back then and learned my lesson that way...

If you just don't do a direct translation and write the said stuff in another manner, you can use direct quotes as long as you link directly to the original source...

simply put, direct translations = plagiarism, direct translations without the mention of a source might even be illegal...

Plagiarism is a BIG NONO in the journalism industry, let alone in college and the likes...

It's been done to some stuff I wrote. After long calling and mailing with some people, I arranged a interview with Hideo Kojima, talked with him about some stuff and had a nice talk with him. Put the interview online and 3 days later I saw a direct copy of my work on a French site, talking like it was that guy personally interviewing Kojima without any mention of the site I worked for, let alone the mention of it originally being a Dutch article...

completely stopping it would be impossible, but at least bring the matter to light is the least that can be done...

But why this has to come from Kamijo and his management...

as for lyrics, that's a whole 'nother business =)

I agree with the credit thing though. I always put up a reference to the original article with my translations.

I'm just wondering though if the situation would be slightly different for streetteams, as they don't make profit and only exist for promotion purposes (or well, they're supposed to).

[Mei 276]

it's funny cos the only ppl who get in trouble r teenagers or young adults who dont have much money, except for just buying their cd's LOL FAIL

[Aya 91]

Well, being a former journalist, I can understand Kamijo... When you arranged an interview with someone, put work in it, and it's blatantly copied on another site, it's just plagiarism. A direct translation of said interview is just the same...

simply put, direct translations = plagiarism, direct translations without the mention of a source might even be illegal...

Plagiarism is a BIG NONO in the journalism industry, let alone in college and the likes...

Umm... perhaps the laws are different in every country, but from what I know:

• direct translation without permission but citing the original source = copyright infringement, not plagiarism but still illegal
  direct translation without permission and passing it off as your own = copyright infringement AND plagiarism, double illegal
  direct translation with permission but passing it off as your own = plagiarism, illegal
  direct translation with permission and proper credits = a-okay

I understand all the points you've made, but we're talking about two difference situations here. I agree that plagiarism is wrong in all instances and shouldn't be tolerated. But I'm talking about translations that only involve copyright infringement.

I don't condone mainstream websites with professional translators who'd post such interviews. Places like musicjapanplus or SAKU ... they have access to the bands and can get their own interviews.

What I'm talking about is unofficial fan translations shared directly into the fandom via tumblr, livejournal and such. 99% of these translators do not translate the interviews and pass them off as their own. So technically this is NOT plagiarism, it's just copyright infringement because they didn't get the permission of the copyright holder to translate and share the interview.

The 1% of unofficial fan translator that DO steal an interview and call it their own, yes... that's plagiarism and a whole other situation.

But the other 99% of the time? These interviews are helping spread the word and understanding about the band and their music. The people who read these interviews wouldn't be able to understand it otherwise. In addition, translations would NOT be available otherwise.

Luckily official translations are becoming more widely available (at least in English) - but it's still far, FAR limited in the overall world of translations.

That's all I'm trying to say.

[Aya 91]

I don't understand why everyone is making such a big deal out of this though. I mean we do upload/download, share music, scans, etc., we did so since god knows when and we'll definitely do this in the future. Same goes with translations. No difference for me, safe for a huge sparkly love that I feel towards all my translators ♥

Speaking just for myself, I think it's a big deal because translations (that aren't plagiarized) don't hurt anyone. People who read translations aren't interested in the magazines for the interview, they can't read it. If they're going to purchase a magazine, scans probably will stop them - and translation won't.

Same thing with translated song lyrics, they aren't going to stop someone from buying a CD or DVD, uploaded music/video probably will.

Most Japanese fans can't read the translations, so that's not going to stop them from purchasing the magazines or CDs/DVDs.

So, while sharing translations is copyright infringement in the same way that scans, audio and video sharing is copyright infringement.... I don't think the same harm is present in translations. I know an artist would never say "Yes, please translate our stuff".... but for an artist to ask fans to STOP translating these... that's rather difficult.

Ironically, in a similiar vein is [Gazette] Aoi's recent comment on uploaders and illegal downloaders. While I don't agree with his choice of words, I can understand his sentiment behind them. I don't completely agree with Aoi and I won't stop uploading/downloading.... but I do not hold the things he said against him because what we do (sharing media) is such a double-edged sword

However, the things Kamijo said? I find it more difficult to understand his sentiment behind them.

[Aya 91]

I read about this on KAMIJO's blog a few days ago (I think I mentioned this issue in the mini-chat as well) but I think it's utterly ridiculous. I can understand copyright claims but these copyright nazis are taking it to a whole new level.

Exactly, I agree with everything you said. Translations are helpful, not hurtful. Legally the bands can't come out and say it's okay to translate... but I've always felt there's an unspoken sentiment like "we won't say anything one way or the other" ... until one of them said it

Not even PSC went this far in their "please don't share copyright material" plea.

When it comes to B-T, I've always felt they're not interested in the public relations aspects (interviews, photoshoots, etc etc)... they prefer to immerse themselves in creating and playing the music. However, management and labels require them to do the public relations stuff

[susel 31]

Speaking just for myself, I think it's a big deal because translations (that aren't plagiarized) don't hurt anyone. People who read translations aren't interested in the magazines for the interview, they can't read it. If they're going to purchase a magazine, scans probably will stop them - and translation won't.

Same thing with translated song lyrics, they aren't going to stop someone from buying a CD or DVD, uploaded music/video probably will.

....

However, the things Kamijo said? I find it more difficult to understand his sentiment behind them.

well, now that you put it this way I must agree with your points.

not to say that it had disturbed feelings among some of the translators ._.

[Guest Magatsu]

copyright = copyright.

don't forget that in every magazines does stay "don't publish anything in any content"

You always should ask permission no matter what.

Or a band should tell you "go on"

But interviews <- always ask the publisher if it's okay to put the translation online.

You can blame them for being selfish that they want to keep it Japan only/ protected etc.

But... you also should respect that.

They don't want it. so live with it.

And translators can better put their energy into another band who love to see translations around.

[Nyasagi 259]

You can blame them for being selfish that they want to keep it Japan only/ protected etc.

But... you also should respect that.

They don't want it. so live with it.

And translators can better put their energy into another band who love to see translations around.

They don't want - ignore them and pay more attention to bands that want it. I totally agree with it, if someone is too bitchy about such things, they don't deserve any attention. He wants only Japanese fans, then foreign fans should ignore him. Sure, there is copyright, etc, but it's mostly to protect artists and their labels from losing money or people plagiarizing stuff, but it's been already said that people don't take these texts as their own and translations wouldn't stop people from buying, just music/video uploads and scans would. I could understand if he asked to not post these things in Japanese on the internet, but translations? Come on...

[Kaito-sama 1]

I really don't understand the intent of this at all, music should be about spreading your message and sound to as many people as possible, its how you stay afloat especially in such a scene. Its not like there's an official way to "buy" translations, unless it was included in a European release. So lots of bands who clearly need the attention/support, but remain exclusive to Japan, would just fall apart(or at the very least, not do as well as they could). I can kind of understand interviews, maybe it should be up to the people doing the interview to release translations, but lyrics makes no sense. Nothing is being taken, the music is being understood, and if they want to make money, it helps if people know what they're listening to.

/end rant

[Sakura Seven 593]

Kamijo's lyrics suck, anyway.

[Zeus 7997]

I really don't understand the intent of this at all, music should be about spreading your message and sound to as many people as possible, its how you stay afloat especially in such a scene. Its not like there's an official way to "buy" translations, unless it was included in a European release. So lots of bands who clearly need the attention/support, but remain exclusive to Japan, would just fall apart(or at the very least, not do as well as they could). I can kind of understand interviews, maybe it should be up to the people doing the interview to release translations, but lyrics makes no sense. Nothing is being taken, the music is being understood, and if they want to make money, it helps if people know what they're listening to.

/end rant

I don't know about anyone else but I can listen to Japanese music just fine without needing to understand what anyone says. I also don't think not having readily available lyrics in your language will stop people from listening to the bands that they like. Understanding the lyrics is always a plus but it isn't ever necessary.

[Kaito-sama 1]

My beef wasn't so much that I found lyrics necessary, just that I didnt like the idea of not having access to it. People who really like a certain band like to know everything, I knew most of the lyrics to my favorite English bands in high school, it just sucks to have that option taken away, and the artists themselves don't really gain anything from withholding it.

[Zeus 7997]

That I can agree with. I'd really love for Kamijo to elaborate on why he doesn't want his lyrics disseminated , but I suppose the reason is layered in stupidity and fallacies.

[Kaito-sama 1]

I mean sure lots of VK bands have nonsensical fantasy lyrics, but its not always terrible, and its sure as hell better than..whats popular in america..what is it now..something about blowing flo rida..yeah, if he withheld that, id be much happier with aristocratic japanese vampire stories xD

EDIT: VK Anne Rice > Modern rap