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ladyofshalott

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  1. Like
    ladyofshalott reacted to ghostpepper in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    For Luna Sea look up Image live should see their recent performance of it. Really amazing. For X Japan tears is amazing. If you are not impressed by Toshi I do not know what will impress you. He is like the steve perry of Japan haha. 
     
    Hide is not really amazing technique wise, just he studied was all. 
    Ishii of kagrra has really great falsetto. Was a soprano from jr.high. ❤️
  2. Like
    ladyofshalott reacted to violetchain in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    Maybe something like JAM Project? I don't know anything about vocal technique, but they all seem to sound pretty good singing into their 50s, so I'm assuming they're doing something right.
     
     
    I'm not the biggest Galneryus fan, but I've always found YAMA-B's voice really striking as well. I think there's just something so charming about the way it pairs with the nerdy dad energy of his stage moves.
     
     
  3. Thanks
    ladyofshalott reacted to ghostpepper in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    I think to understand source of vk's vibrato stuff and singing style check Morrie from Dead End and Kiyoharu from Kuroyume. 
  4. Like
    ladyofshalott reacted to reminiscing2004 in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    I understand what you're saying essentially. I used to not really hear it, but nowadays there are a lot of vocalists I can only enjoy when I'm "in the mood".
     
    Check out early Janne Da Arc and Rentrer en Soi. After like 12 years of listening to visual kei, Yasu and Satsuki have consistently stuck out to me as some of the best vocalists, and tend to avoid a bit of the excessive vibrato and pitch slurring that a lot of other talented vk vocalists tend to embellish their singing with
  5. Like
    ladyofshalott got a reaction from Jigsaw9 in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    That makes sense, because most people find it easier to tune to a relative pitch, like a guitar or piano playing in a similar octave, rather than pull a note out of thin air. Basically it requires a good ear. That's something I think I'd generally expect of a professional musician. (A violinist shouldn't need an accompaniment to stay in tune and the same goes for a vocalist, whose voice is their instrument). However, considering the technical ability of popular musicians is often much lower than the classical counterparts, it is actually likely that many have not developed a very good ear. I think Kaya hits a few notes flat in this performance, but he also notices and corrects some of them, so I'd say I generally agree with your friend's assessment. 
  6. Like
    ladyofshalott reacted to Jigsaw9 in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    I have no idea about technique whatsoever, but a vocalist/pianist friend of mine who studied music for 10+ years really praised Kaya for his vocal abilities. He emphasized how hard it probably is (at least from his own experience) for Kaya to keep his voice controlled and stay in tune, because for example most of the verse parts in his songs have very little "background" for the vocals to "fall back upon", i.e. it's usually just a drumbeat and random bass synth and he still pretty much nails all the right notes. Plus his voice is pretty powerful and cool, but that's just my personal preference/observation.  
     
    Here's a random cool live clip:
     
     
  7. Like
    ladyofshalott reacted to NICKT in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    I'm not musically articulate enough to actually discuss this stuff outside of surface level observations so I'll just respond to this in particular, this board started as a visual-kei board a long, long time ago but, like me, a lot of older name stays have grown dissatisfied with current visual-kei outputs or needed more and branched out, so you'll get some general Japanese music discussion but still with a major focus on the visual-kei genre in particular.
  8. Like
    ladyofshalott got a reaction from NICKT in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    But aren't they looking to the West just by making pop/rock music and playing pianos, electric guitars, etc.? I sort of get it though. It would be sad it everything became super Americanized.
     
    I don't think my impression was that Japan was "less developed," rather that Japanese vocalists choose to focus less on technique, because so many of the vocalists I heard seemed to be trying to make their voice "interesting" or achieve a certain style (such as cutesy girl group vocals). Basically, I had that sense that there was a preponderance of "stylistic" rather than "technical" vocalists in Japan. I'm starting to think my first impression may have been a result of the selection of what I had listened to. 
  9. Like
    ladyofshalott got a reaction from NICKT in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    @NICKT
    I think my original post might come off as rather pejorative. This was not my intention. I’m just the sort of person who tends to say many critical or negative-sounding things even when I really like something. It’s a personal flaw that I’m aware of, but clearly still need to work on. In any case. If I thought Japanese music was terrible I wouldn’t have bothered to join a forum to learn about it.
     
    I should also clarify that I don’t think superior vocal technique necessarily equals a better singer. Vocal technique is just one of a number of elements that go into singing and how important it is depends on what the singer is trying to do. There are certainly a lot of singers who fail to get the sound they are looking for (or damage their voice trying) because they don’t have the technical ability. On the other hand, there are also singers who may not need much technique for the sound they are going for. Personally, I have to say I tend to be biased towards singers that have some technical proficiency, probably because I come from a more classical background and it can be a little hard to go from Philippe Jaroussky to Bon Iver wannabe #5, but considering how unpopular opera is I’d say most people probably feel the opposite.
     
    I agree that the Ameri-centrism of not only the cultural sphere, but pretty much everything, is pretty ridiculous.
     
    I think you also raise a good point regarding whether Japanese singers should be held to American (or Western) standards. But I think you should also consider to what extent they are participating in a Western art form. I would never think to look for Western techniques in a traditional Japanese art form. Coming out from a Noh play and saying, “Hmm, the lead wasn’t as really as good as Edward Norton,” is completely ridiculous. But all the things you mention (TV, film, popular music) are the result of American (or Western) forms being adopted (imposed? adopted under duress?) due to Westernization. Thus, some mastery of Western techniques (filmography, Western instruments, etc.) is necessary.
     
    Of course, countries will come up with their own versions of these art forms different from Hollywood and judging them based on the expectations you have of a Hollywood production is not always appropriate. For example, something like Hana kimi is clearly a highly stylized manga adaptation (I’ve never picked up a manga in my life, but even I can tell they’re not going for realism and I can recognize elements of that style in other shoujo manga adaptations). I don’t think it could be judged from the same perspective as a serious American show, or even an American comedy, since the acting styles and comedic sense is quite different. Similarly, Korean dramas tend to use a lot of slow-mo. I think this seems quite cheesy from a Western perspective, but after watching quite a few Korean shows you realize that it’s a rather standard element of the style and get used to it. On the music side of things, the visual kei singing is definitely not something you would hear from an American band, even though they are making rock music. In this sense, I would find it hard to compare one of these singers directly to an American singer, since they seem to be trying to do something different. Do I think you can still consider Western vocal technique as one element when evaluating them? Yes, because 1) there are clearly Western influences to their singing style as well 2) some of the singers in the genre (if visual kei is a genre?) do use these techniques and it clearly affects their sound (based on some of the responses here I went and looked up an old performance by Ruki and the difference is very obvious). I’d say something similar about the handful of enka singers that I’ve heard. There’s clearly a combination of Western and Japanese influences.
     
    On the other hand, when it comes to someone like Taka, is there anything non-Western about his singing style? I feel that he would pretty much sound like an American pop punk vocalist if he was singing completely in English, hence my comparison to Gerard Way (though the “less interesting” comment is a judgement on artistry, which admittedly does not belong in a discussion of technique). One thing I don’t think I stated clearly is that I don’t think Taka is actually technically subpar to his American counterparts, since pop punk is generally not where you go to look for stellar vocal technique. Rather, it is the fact that so many people seem to think he’s a great vocalist that led me to include him. Basically, I just think his skills are overrated.
     
    The last thing I would say is that the “standard” does not necessarily have to be American. For example, when listening to Japanese ballads some of the comparisons that came to mind most were people like Lara Fabian (Belgian) or Park Hyoshin (Korean). Unlike singers in some genres, I tend to expect people singing ballads to have more technical skill, since belting/soaring vocals are some of the hallmark features of ballads (especially modern pop ballads). Though the way I wrote it (almost as an after thought) didn’t make this evident, hearing a number of lackluster ballad performances was actually one of the main things that led me to write this post. (My opinion of Japanese ballads has improved somewhat after I finding a Quora post with some good recommendations.)
  10. Interesting
    ladyofshalott got a reaction from saiko in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    But aren't they looking to the West just by making pop/rock music and playing pianos, electric guitars, etc.? I sort of get it though. It would be sad it everything became super Americanized.
     
    I don't think my impression was that Japan was "less developed," rather that Japanese vocalists choose to focus less on technique, because so many of the vocalists I heard seemed to be trying to make their voice "interesting" or achieve a certain style (such as cutesy girl group vocals). Basically, I had that sense that there was a preponderance of "stylistic" rather than "technical" vocalists in Japan. I'm starting to think my first impression may have been a result of the selection of what I had listened to. 
  11. Like
    ladyofshalott reacted to NICKT in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    It's not even so much the West but more so just the US, and it's a pervasive mentality that manifests in every corner of entertainment(and probably everything else as well). Can't help but compare yourself to the big dogs, especially when it's your competition.

    I mean, Japan is the only place on the planet with a majority speaking Japanese so most of the entertainment they consume is produced by themselves for themselves. However an absolute metric fuck-tonne of US content is produced and then almost forced upon the rest of the world. As an Australian, aside from the cornerstones of Australian dramas(Neighbours and Home&Away) I couldn't tell you a single other Australian drama series, but I sure as damn hell could tell you US ones. Even our stars when they get big fuck off to Hollywood because it's viewed as the end goal. (Margot Robbie, of Wolves of Wall Street and Harley Quinn fame, left Neighbours to go to the US.)

    You'd think that Japan, by nature of it not speaking English as a major language would be exempt from this mentality but they are still susceptible to it. From the Western acts that tour and sell out the Tokyo Dome repeatedly all the way down to just the immense budgets thrown at CG in movies, you can't compete with Hollywood and it becomes the yardstick we're all measured by. 

    I've shown people Japanese dramas and also read comments online that consistently call it out for either being bad or over the top, the music for being simple and generic, especially when it comes to following Western trends they seem to get it way after the fad's gone and apparently only tap into it's surface level.(Or at least that was the impression I got from being eviscerated online sharing a SiM song to an acquaintance.)

    When you go and watch the Japanese Godzilla movies and see the man in the rubber suit but then go watch the American ones and it's this gargantuan CGI beast then you can clearly see the different playing fields. Japan's just gotta deal with Japan, and in all honesty it's amazing just for that, but Hollywood and the States has the world's entertainment market by the balls, no doubt.

    (Anime's probably the one category where Japan dominates everywhere else and I imagine that's why they're pumping it with so much garbage material because the fans will always lap it up. Western animated materials are mainly kids shows and that comes with a lot of condescending design mentalities so it's never worth the comparison. I was also considering video games as another one that Japan dominates but I'm changing my mind on that. There was an interview with the translator for the GBA FFIV where he said that he gave presentation(s) to the studio on Western video game design. FFXIV also has been wanting Western blood in it's development for a while now, especially in it's raid series where they say they're having immense trouble finding raid designers from the West that can also speak Japanese.)

     
  12. Like
    ladyofshalott got a reaction from BrenGun in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    I actually really agree with this. But I also don't think there's really a downside to having more skill, which will just expand the tools the singer has to express the music. (How effectively they use those tools is a matter of the musicianship/artistry.)
     
    There's also a big element of personal taste. I remember listening so some "indie" playlist on Spotify a few years ago and every single vocalist was using the same style breathy/whiny vocals. I'm sure some people love that style and I can acknowledge that it's an intentional stylistic choice the singers were making that did work with their music, but that doesn't mean I would ever listen to it again. Maybe in very small doses I could appreciate that style, but it very quickly became grating for me.
     
    U sounds like a lot of pop punk/emo vocalists to me, but a bit more nasally. I agree it works with the music style, and it's more listenable to me the breathy indie vocals (but that's just my personal opinion).
  13. Like
    ladyofshalott got a reaction from Nighttime Jae in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    I actually really agree with this. But I also don't think there's really a downside to having more skill, which will just expand the tools the singer has to express the music. (How effectively they use those tools is a matter of the musicianship/artistry.)
     
    There's also a big element of personal taste. I remember listening so some "indie" playlist on Spotify a few years ago and every single vocalist was using the same style breathy/whiny vocals. I'm sure some people love that style and I can acknowledge that it's an intentional stylistic choice the singers were making that did work with their music, but that doesn't mean I would ever listen to it again. Maybe in very small doses I could appreciate that style, but it very quickly became grating for me.
     
    U sounds like a lot of pop punk/emo vocalists to me, but a bit more nasally. I agree it works with the music style, and it's more listenable to me the breathy indie vocals (but that's just my personal opinion).
  14. Like
    ladyofshalott got a reaction from Nighttime Jae in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    So I'm about to leave on a trip and won't have internet, but I just want to say I really appreciate all the recommendations! I'll finish listening to them when I get back. I didn't expect to get so many responses and you all have definitely made me feel a bit more hopeful about finding singers that I like!
  15. Like
    ladyofshalott got a reaction from saiko in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    So I'm about to leave on a trip and won't have internet, but I just want to say I really appreciate all the recommendations! I'll finish listening to them when I get back. I didn't expect to get so many responses and you all have definitely made me feel a bit more hopeful about finding singers that I like!
  16. Like
    ladyofshalott reacted to Nighttime Jae in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    When singers have vocal technique, it simply means that they know how to sing correctly; usually, you have to undergo some vocal training in order to acquire that. Singers that have vocal technique can be more or less "skilled", but they should be able to sing in a correct and healthy manner (stuff like support, breathing, pitch, switching between registers, lack of strain etc.) 
  17. Like
    ladyofshalott got a reaction from Nighttime Jae in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    I agree. I think this is a semantic argument. Technique = skill. Everyone using the same style is what makes them sound the same. A singer with very good technique will have excellent control over their voice, thus the potential for more stylistic versatility, including the ability to drop their technique to get a sound that can't be made with those techniques (such as a singer who knows how to support their voice singing breathily for style in places).
  18. Like
    ladyofshalott got a reaction from Manabu in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    I'm actually really curious how these visual kei guys get the sound that they do, because I've never heard anything quite like it. The vibrato doesn't really sound like a normal vibrato, but it doesn't sound completely forced or unnatural either, and the singers who do have some technical ability seem to be able to manipulate it pretty freely. It also kinda sounds like they are singing out of the back of their nose or something like that. Like there is a slightly nasal sound, but it's more "dark" than "bright" sounding. (This is probably a bad description.) Anyway, it's quite interesting and a pretty cool style.
     
    I will definitely listen to more by those singers. Thanks for the recommendation!
  19. Like
    ladyofshalott reacted to Nighttime Jae in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    I think he's a good vocalist, but yeah never found him to be outstanding. He's good at what he does, but he's no vocal virtuoso.
  20. Like
    ladyofshalott got a reaction from ghostpepper in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    I'm actually really curious how these visual kei guys get the sound that they do, because I've never heard anything quite like it. The vibrato doesn't really sound like a normal vibrato, but it doesn't sound completely forced or unnatural either, and the singers who do have some technical ability seem to be able to manipulate it pretty freely. It also kinda sounds like they are singing out of the back of their nose or something like that. Like there is a slightly nasal sound, but it's more "dark" than "bright" sounding. (This is probably a bad description.) Anyway, it's quite interesting and a pretty cool style.
     
    I will definitely listen to more by those singers. Thanks for the recommendation!
  21. Like
    ladyofshalott got a reaction from ghostpepper in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    @ghostpepper Sorry I should have clarified, I was talking 100% about clean vocals. I don't really know anything about metal screaming and other extreme vocals (don't particularly enjoy it either). I'm sure it's difficult to do right and requires technique, but as explained in the video you posted, it's a different set of techniques from standard singing. After watching that video I realize that when people praised Kyo's vocals they were more commenting on these types of extreme vocals, rather than standard singing, thus I was probably looking for the wrong things when I listened to him. I can certainly see why people would be impressed by his ability to make such bizarre sounds.
     
     
    I'll try to listen to Ishi, Jui, and Hide. Thanks for the recommendations! I have listened to a few things by Luna Sea and while I thought the vocals sounded better than most, they didn't stand out as being particularly strong. However, I think those were all very old, so I will check out some more recent performances. I have listened to a couple relatively recent Japan X performances and was not particularly impressed by Toshi. Do you have a favorite performance to recommend? 
  22. Like
    ladyofshalott got a reaction from CAT5 in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    So I’m very new to Japanese music (I’ve been delving into it for less than a week), but I’ve started to get the impression that Japanese vocalists place more emphasis on style than technique. I’m not expert on vocal technique by any means, but even I can tell how lacking in technique many of the singers I’ve heard are. However, since I'm new I haven't listened to much (and some of it isn't very recent).
     
    The only vocalists who have stood out to me thus far are Gackt, Ruki, and maybe MUCC’s vocalist (have listened to very little at this point). Though I wouldn’t put them in the category of “excellent vocalists,” they’re definitely solid, especially when compared to most of what I’ve heard.
     
    Taka is decent, I guess, because at least he doesn’t sound like he’s struggling to hold a note, but he pretty much sounds like a less interesting Gerard Way to me. I suppose that’s not necessarily a bad thing … He did appear to be struggling with his breathing in the one live performance I watched, though. With an n of 1 that could just be a bad day, but given that the comments were praising his vocals (rather than noting that he was off), it seems like it might be the norm.
     
    I Googled something along the lines of “best j-rock singers” and came up with a fan-ranked list, which placed Kyo in first place (the funny thing is that none of the comments were about Kyo's voice, rather that he should be ranked higher than Ruki). Obviously this sort of list is a popularity contest that I don’t put much stock in, but I’ve seen other comments praising Kyo as a vocalist. I’ve listened to a few Dir en Grey performances, but didn’t find them memorable (as in I literally have no recollection of them, even though that was two days ago), which is strange given that Dir en Grey’s music is supposedly really weird and experimental (I do remember the PVs, just not the music). Is he better in certain performances than others?
     
    I’ve listened to a number of ballad singers, who are pleasant, but if you put them next to someone like Park Hyoshin, they seem extremely lackluster. Honestly, even SM’s roster of idol singers outdoes them by quite a lot.
     
    I’m aware other countries have many lousy vocalists, but there also seem to be more very good ones. I've yet to be really WOWed by any Japanese vocalist, though I do enjoy a number of them.
     
    tl;dr Am I just listening to the wrong things and missing the good vocalists, or is Japanese vocal talent a bit subpar?
  23. Like
    ladyofshalott got a reaction from reminiscing2004 in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    So I’m very new to Japanese music (I’ve been delving into it for less than a week), but I’ve started to get the impression that Japanese vocalists place more emphasis on style than technique. I’m not expert on vocal technique by any means, but even I can tell how lacking in technique many of the singers I’ve heard are. However, since I'm new I haven't listened to much (and some of it isn't very recent).
     
    The only vocalists who have stood out to me thus far are Gackt, Ruki, and maybe MUCC’s vocalist (have listened to very little at this point). Though I wouldn’t put them in the category of “excellent vocalists,” they’re definitely solid, especially when compared to most of what I’ve heard.
     
    Taka is decent, I guess, because at least he doesn’t sound like he’s struggling to hold a note, but he pretty much sounds like a less interesting Gerard Way to me. I suppose that’s not necessarily a bad thing … He did appear to be struggling with his breathing in the one live performance I watched, though. With an n of 1 that could just be a bad day, but given that the comments were praising his vocals (rather than noting that he was off), it seems like it might be the norm.
     
    I Googled something along the lines of “best j-rock singers” and came up with a fan-ranked list, which placed Kyo in first place (the funny thing is that none of the comments were about Kyo's voice, rather that he should be ranked higher than Ruki). Obviously this sort of list is a popularity contest that I don’t put much stock in, but I’ve seen other comments praising Kyo as a vocalist. I’ve listened to a few Dir en Grey performances, but didn’t find them memorable (as in I literally have no recollection of them, even though that was two days ago), which is strange given that Dir en Grey’s music is supposedly really weird and experimental (I do remember the PVs, just not the music). Is he better in certain performances than others?
     
    I’ve listened to a number of ballad singers, who are pleasant, but if you put them next to someone like Park Hyoshin, they seem extremely lackluster. Honestly, even SM’s roster of idol singers outdoes them by quite a lot.
     
    I’m aware other countries have many lousy vocalists, but there also seem to be more very good ones. I've yet to be really WOWed by any Japanese vocalist, though I do enjoy a number of them.
     
    tl;dr Am I just listening to the wrong things and missing the good vocalists, or is Japanese vocal talent a bit subpar?
  24. Like
    ladyofshalott got a reaction from Manabu in Does technique matter to Japanese vocalists?   
    So I’m very new to Japanese music (I’ve been delving into it for less than a week), but I’ve started to get the impression that Japanese vocalists place more emphasis on style than technique. I’m not expert on vocal technique by any means, but even I can tell how lacking in technique many of the singers I’ve heard are. However, since I'm new I haven't listened to much (and some of it isn't very recent).
     
    The only vocalists who have stood out to me thus far are Gackt, Ruki, and maybe MUCC’s vocalist (have listened to very little at this point). Though I wouldn’t put them in the category of “excellent vocalists,” they’re definitely solid, especially when compared to most of what I’ve heard.
     
    Taka is decent, I guess, because at least he doesn’t sound like he’s struggling to hold a note, but he pretty much sounds like a less interesting Gerard Way to me. I suppose that’s not necessarily a bad thing … He did appear to be struggling with his breathing in the one live performance I watched, though. With an n of 1 that could just be a bad day, but given that the comments were praising his vocals (rather than noting that he was off), it seems like it might be the norm.
     
    I Googled something along the lines of “best j-rock singers” and came up with a fan-ranked list, which placed Kyo in first place (the funny thing is that none of the comments were about Kyo's voice, rather that he should be ranked higher than Ruki). Obviously this sort of list is a popularity contest that I don’t put much stock in, but I’ve seen other comments praising Kyo as a vocalist. I’ve listened to a few Dir en Grey performances, but didn’t find them memorable (as in I literally have no recollection of them, even though that was two days ago), which is strange given that Dir en Grey’s music is supposedly really weird and experimental (I do remember the PVs, just not the music). Is he better in certain performances than others?
     
    I’ve listened to a number of ballad singers, who are pleasant, but if you put them next to someone like Park Hyoshin, they seem extremely lackluster. Honestly, even SM’s roster of idol singers outdoes them by quite a lot.
     
    I’m aware other countries have many lousy vocalists, but there also seem to be more very good ones. I've yet to be really WOWed by any Japanese vocalist, though I do enjoy a number of them.
     
    tl;dr Am I just listening to the wrong things and missing the good vocalists, or is Japanese vocal talent a bit subpar?
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