coffee000

You're preaching to the choir. I understand perfectly what a trend is. And having been into Japanese music for over a decade, I'm pretty well acquainted with a variety of scenes in the country and understand well what would be considered trendy and whatnot.

 

But I disagree on one point. I think Japan's culture/society does have a lot to do with they way they view trends. You said and I quote:

 

 

Why? Because following trends (popular or not) is generally more acceptable in a country where the whole is valued more than the individual. Of course Japan isn't uniform to the point where different genres don't exist. It would be absolutely inane to think that. In fact, I'd even argue that it's because Japanese society is so uniform that their music industry is so thriving and diverse. In a society like that, music becomes an even more precious form of self-expression.

I am not arguing whether Japan is a uniform society or not. My point is that, they accept following trends not because they value the whole more than the individual, but because they view music (all genres equally) as a business. It is a product made for different niches, including the groups who want to think music is a form of self-expression. I would argue that following trends (popular or not) is also widely acceptable in Western society because Western music industry also views music as a business. Only some delusional members of the audience deny that music should be marketed to a target group and made with them in mind.

That's a pretty broad generalization to make, though - as I'm sure there are plenty of Japanese musicians that feel disdain towards trendy/popular music. Although given how uniform Japanese society can be, I wouldn't say that your observation is entirely invalid either - since following trends is probably more agreeable for them.

I didn't say all Japanese musicians would follow trends. Some definitely don't do that. And following trends is not necessarily a bad thing. I think you misunderstand what a "trend" is. A trend is not always something popular. It has nothing to do with how uniform Japanese society is, otherwise we wouldn't have visual kei, indie music, doujin music or even otaku subcultures such as anime/game music (do you understand that some of these trends are not mainstream or even disliked by ordinary Japanese people?). Music is a serious business and they treat it like that. They follow a trend, sometimes a non-mainstream trend, to attract their target audience. If they were really that uniform, there wouldn't be different demographics and everybody would listen to the same type of music.

You might have to rephrase this for me, as I believe I might be misinterpreting it. But are you saying that jpop groups and non-vk bands DON'T follow trends like bands in the west?

You probably didn't read the whole conversation. All J-rock and J-pop groups are the same, no matter they are vk or not. Most follow trends while some don't.

They don't have the same "rock mentality" of "if you don't follow trends, you are superior" believed by some Western people. They just don't care. They can follow trends (including trends in "scene" music). People won't think they are no good because of that. Japanese seem to apply the same mentality to all popular music. However, some people in the West tend to treat rock music differently.

but i didn't mean it as critic of music . more like an attitude or way of thinking . do not be conventional . you don't have to follow the mass.

be yourself. following trends is for pop music. isn't this like rock mentality?

 

edit: i still  can go with your answer though. i mean it answers this too.

Most bands follow trends. It's a fact. Of course they sometimes don't follow pop music trends. Because they don't follow trends in pop music, but trends in "scene" music, they can trick rebellious teenager fans into believing that they are not conventional, or they are unique, etc. Some people might take this so-called rock mentality too seriously while many bands don't. It is sometimes as simple as "if you don't sound like the pop artists most friends of teenagers listen to, you are unconventional and you don't follow the mass".

And I don't believe Japanese bands tend to have this rock mentality like in the West. And I am not talking about just vk bands, but non-vk J-rock bands and J-pop artists (J-pop is a huge genre) as well. And their fans don't care either.

ugh i don't know either what is it with trends .

 i don't get it. because i thought  in rock the mentality was:

do not follow trends . be unique or different.

 

That's "rock critic's mentality" not necessarily bands' mentality. Most bands are trend followers, no matter what "scene" they are in. There are lots of examples from the 1960s to today, mainstream music or not. And the bands themselves don't care what the critics say at all. They get fans - that's what matters to them. I can understand if they actually make good music no matter to what extent they follow a trend. I personally think a lot of fans follow the bad bands for no reason. OK, some bad bands just didn't have any luck. That happens.

And I think the vk scene has less of this type of hang-ups. They care even less. This rock critic's mentality came from the West and may not work in Japan.

There's probably a female rock star dating sim already, just not with real people in it as characters.

I am sure there are more than one already, considering how popular K-On! was. Seiyuus will definitely do a better job of "moe" than female rock groups

Possible reasons why they don't release one with female J-rockers for fanboys:

1. Most VK fanboys are not believed to be those anime/game otaku type, otherwise it makes more sense if they are into female idols/maid cafe girls not the weird-looking female vk bands. Male vk bands have more in common in terms of looks with anime/manga bishounen than female vk artists with anime bishoujo. Of course female rock bands with idol looks are exceptions. See the second reason below.

2. There are already tons of eroge or dating games for guys. They are voiced by more "professional" voice actresses and will serve the male otaku better. There's no need for female rock band members to do this job. I am sure otaku guys fantasize about voice actresses or female idols more than rock bands.

But I could be wrong. Maybe someday they will release one for guys.

This basically. I see so many MEJIBRAY fans on tumblr go like "eww I hate the GazettE Tsuzuku is so much better than Ruki"

I am not fan of both bands but tend to agree with this. XD. I can stand Mejibray's vocalist's voice better than Gazette's. I don't care who's the copycat because I am not interested in those bands at all. I am just speaking purely from the perspective of which lead singer sounds better to my ears. Yet I understand people can like so and so vocalist just because of their uniqueness. This uniqueness can put some people off (and I am one of those some people). A lot of very big (or not that big) Western rock bands still have lead singers' voices that put some people off. You can't do anything about that. It's just that most of the time the people who don't like them are silent, unlike these fangirls. There's no point arguing who's better. It's actually who you like better. Teenagers/crazy fangirls have nothing else better to do but fighting online. They are always like that. *shrugs*

I don't like Dir en Grey - this is probably an even more "unpopular" music opinion. I mean, they are so "big" and cult-like on the scene. But whatever, I don't consider myself part of the "scene". I don't care they are big or not. I just never like their sound.

I think One Ok Rock is crap. They don't even make good and listenable pop. I don't understand why they get praised by so many people and why people treat them like they are the next big thing. OK, I understand if these fans are 13 year-olds who missed the era of early to mid-2000s Western "emo" band boom. The obnoxious-sounding lead singer seems to be the one praised by these fans most (lol). Conclusion: they need this type of music for their teen life. You can't blame them.

I could go on and on about these unpopular music opinions...

Similar thing happened to Amber Gris before. They didn't learn the lesson, or as someone said it was the insider crew.

Looks like people are trying to make Tora a pathological thief who sneaks around anywhere with guitars. XD

I wonder what songs they will perform? Have they written their own songs? Or they are just a cover band or one playing some random ViViD and D=OUT songs?

If he left, it would be a real shame. He has a nice singing voice not easily found on the scene. And the guitarist (I assume?) should not scream anymore and just let the vocalist sing.

I give them kudos for having good melodies and not sounding annoying like those Western bands that play a similar style of music (e.g. Finch).

Seriously, there are still people who think like that? I know many countries are not that good, but Japan is definitely not your ideal anime or visual kei fantasy land. *sigh* OK, even animeland is not your ideal world since most anime is crap.

Japan is actually a very conservative and close-minded society in many ways. You will be grateful if you live in a much freer Western country as your Western raised mindset will find it very hard to accept many of their views. I am talking about the real Japan, not your anime or visual kei fantasy land. Of course it will be different for a gaijin living in Japan and somebody who's Japanese having grown up there. You should know that many Japanese people are not that happy due to their society's norm, biases, and restrictions on them (well, at least some Japanese TV shows are honest about telling these stories). Trust me, their education system sucks.

The only thing I wish is being able to speak and read perfect Japanese therefore I wouldn't have to spend a lot of time and efforts to learn it.

That said, I still think it's a very good experience for a foreigner to live in Japan for a while if you can afford it. As to actually being a Japanese living there? No, thanks.

The real Korea sucks even more and it's not worth mentioning. And I think the fantasy cheesy kpop/kdrama land is even shittier than the most crappy anime. O_o

The most bland band name I've seen... The song title is arguably even blander. Do they really need to be that cheesy and blatant (not just looks)? Vampires playing in front of a handful of gals in Cyber. Hmm...

2 bands ? No ! DIV, Moran, DOG inThe PWO, Kameleo, v[NEU] and now DaizyStripper...total 10 bands

 

5 types for a simply cover single...funny.

 Was it really covered by so many bands? OMG. This song is so special and Sid is such a legend? O_O

I wonder why this Sid song is so popular that it's covered by two bands to release as a single, and at almost the same time? O_o

When I first heard Origin of Symmetry by Muse in 2001/02, I wondered whether some of the melodies, which were not often found in Western rock, had been inspired by J-rock. I wasn't quite sure since I wasn't really a huge fan of J-rock back then. Wherever they got their inspirations from, Muse have made a few albums with genuinely good music. And they wrote good lyrics in their own language. Isn't it a good enough example for younger bands to follow?

Here is an interesting discussion on the difference between J-music and Western music (especially rock) on AnimeSuki forum: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=97468 I tend to agree with most of what those people said on that topic.

Seriously, those whatever-kei wannabe bands should stop. I don't care whether they actually get signed to a label or not. They should stop trying to be cheap knock-offs of all the shitty generic nu-metal/fake metal Visual Kei bands. But shitty generic nu-metal/fake metal VK bands seem to be the most popular type among Western fans, especially young ones. That's why they all form those whatever-kei wannabe bands. Cheap VK image knock-off is even worse than just music. And what's with all those cheesy fake Japanese band names? Maybe they start a band to pick up the VK fangirls. Maybe they are successful at that. lol

Do they realize that there is a lot of good Japanese music existing outside of all the generic nu-metal/fake metal/metalcore J-rock bands and the Visual Kei scene? I do think it's high time that Western pop/rock learnt from J-music, became more experimental and put more effort on the instrumental and melodies like J-musicians, instead of being boring, simple and confined to conventions like a lot of mainstream rock bands. Don't forget that rock music originated and once flourished in the West. You could become an "it" band like the Strokes were in 2001 and why not? I am not saying the Strokes were experimental but bands like that were "new" and refreshing back then. It's 2013 now and bands certainly know they shouldn't do the same things as bands in 2001 did.

New song is not bad. The album is actually a re-released version of the first album with two new songs.

I really hate this about Japanese music industry: they put all the singles on an album to sell the same product twice. It doesn't matter whether you are major, indie, pop, rock, idols... They all do this. This time there are as many as four (or five?) single songs on this album. They probably should have taken out Manic Pixie and Maslow Mansion. There would still be enough number of songs.

Maslow Mansion is their best single ever, and album versions of Vessel and Ms Luminous are very good.

i don't see them anymore too. but the stupid bands are still here and the point is noone will take you seriously if you remind this look.i couldn't explain it better. i think you get my point.

 

(btw i wasn't talking about the neo visual kei. i was talking about that seremedy new band thread. that i am bored to find and i should have wrote that there.i don't understand in neo visual kei even ridiculous sometimes i find them attractive  . but when white people do it ,like that seremedy dudes. i think it's ugly.plus the music sucked.so it depends it doesn't look good always)

I can still talk about some VK bands even if I think some of them don't look good. As to those white people, I don't even want to talk about them and don't care at all. :/

Simply because old schoold Visual Kei got a massive ammount of fans from abroad when the internet spread across the world. Before then not everybody had access to even know there was something called Visual Kei.

 That Internet boom time was when Neo Visual Kei just started to develop. It was not yet as popular and varied even in Japan. However, today most of the visual kei bands that tour or do lives in the West are Neo ones. I guess they gained the benefits? I mean, bands like LM.C toured in the West while having nothing in common with old-school bands. If there's no audience, they won't go to the West.

There are only a few old-school bands that do this too provided that are very big and not yet disbanded. Most of the general public will probably see them with no much difference from pop singers having a show in the West.

In general, make-ups are only a method to let people know them. Bands are bands, not cosplay groups.

Yes, makeup is a method to let people know them or to attract audience. I personally see nothing wrong with it. Sometimes bands can do it really well in terms of complementing their music with looks and why not let them? There are always those who do it well and those who don't, and those liked by people and those not liked, when many are doing it. This is not limited to visual kei bands if you have watched enough J-rock/pop PVs. These PVs are entertaining and nice-looking. Why not produce more? Even Western pop singers such as Bjork's music videos are so "visual".

This is what you have to deal with when you are a public figure - 13 year-olds calling you "fake" and such. You can't please all the people all the time. I am sure most bands know about this when they start a band. It would be too naive to start such a band with makeup, etc. without mentally preparing for/not caring much about that. Nocturnal Bloodlust is a visual kei band. That's why you probably shouldn't lump them together with Western whatever-core bands. The context of Japanese music is totally different from the West.

Apparently Neo Visual Kei is popular (to an extent) in Japan, but it fails to be succeful enough among western Visuak Kei fans...

How do you explain Neo VK bands touring more frequently in the West today?  You didn't get that much old-school visual kei touring at all. Though most bands still don't tour or do lives in the West, you get a fair amount and that's already "successful" enough for bands from another country and culture/language. You don't need to have U2 level of success to be considered successful. Visual kei is still a niche after all.

sadly it's more easy to relate vkei with the embarrassing emo and scene kids(ok i understand it. you are 13 years old that's why)

than with metal, punk or gothic etc. this comparison personally annoys me.

i never understood why i find visual kei bands attractive. although funny .

 

Are there still emo and scene kids? I thought they were so 2005? XD

I don't find all visual kei attractive though. I never find old-school visual kei bands' looks attractive, even given my age. As to today's visual kei bands, some look good but some can be done badly and embarrassing. I am sure Japanese makeup techniques have improved significantly over the years. Just read their fashion magazines and you will see.

Kameleo have terrible outfits/looks most of the time. But I find some of their PVs very funny even if I don't like their music . If they can be funny and entertaining, I don't mind their looks. I am not singling Kameleo out. They are defnitely not the worst looking visual/oshare kei band out there. There are some bands that just look ridiculous for no reason. And they are not even funny.

I really can't understand some people around me even said bands overseas like Black Veil Brides or Cinema Bizarre are VK too...

They're just glam rock band okay?

Make-ups make a band called VK?

I don't think so.

Then what about black metal bands?

I never heard of someone called Behemoth a VK band...

The easiest way to tell whether a band is VK is by their record label. This industry is actually controlled by certain record labels (and their sub-labels). I am not saying this is good or bad. This is the way how this business works in Japan (might not be the same in the '90s or '80s but the fact is that this industry is constantly evolving). Some VK bands actually don't wear that much makeup or exaggerated costumes. Some VK bands have gone non-visual over the years especially when they have gone major. Sometimes even non-VK j-rock or even pop bands are more "visual" if you look at their PVs, not to mention some of the anime/doujin bands/singers who are pretty "visual" too. I've heard anime or doujin bands being called VK too by some Western audience but this is arguable. An obvious example of this is Ali Project. Although one can't deny the VK influence on some anime/doujin music, I don't think Japanese people will call those anime/doujin/gothic lolita bands VK. VK bands are VK not only because of their looks or because of the music genres they play (they can play from metal to alternative to pop), but also the demographic they are marketed to, and the "scene" they belong to. VK is exclusively a Japanese movement. Foreign bands can't be VK no matter how much a poser/imitator they can be. And no, black metal has nothing to do with VK.

I don't listen to the bands you mentioned but wasn't glam rock something from the '70s or so? But it can have a revival. Who knows? It's not like Western rock hasn't seen any revival yet during the last decades. BVB is not the first Western band that wears makeup. There are some other Western bands today and from the '90s that wore makeup too (Placebo and some bands from the punk or metal scene). Nobody called them VK when VK had not been widely spread to the West in the 1990s and early 2000s (at least I didn't hear any). I guess most of those who tend to label Western bands VK that are very young. Keep in mind that Western bands that influenced old-school VK were not only glam rock and '80s metal, but also '80s goth rock bands that wore makeup (the Cure, Siouxsie and the Banshees, etc). Post-punk and New Wave bands influenced them too, only musically, not on looks. Think of Buck-Tick and Mana's bands, you get what I mean.

I don't even have a "top 10 VK bands" list. I tried a lot of non-VK bands. Some of them have been listed on here already. But most of them are not that interesting to me (the same goes to most generic VK bands). I always find that they lack something no matter whatever rock genre they are... Don't know what that is. Some of them do have a couple of good songs I like, such as the songs they do for anime, TV dramas or movies. But to be put on this "top" list, they need to at least have more than a few songs or even a couple of consistent albums I like. Or sometimes it's because even though I think their music is decent or listenable, I don't like their vocalists. Therefore I can't name as many as 10.

That said, Tokyo Jihen is one I can say I like as a rock band (yes, they are rock - jazz fusion/alternative) instead of liking just a certain song by them. Some bands from the anime or doujin music scene are really good. An example is Asriel.

I do think I need to explore more J-music.

^{Not into this band but I saw a few familiar names in those session band members. Some are now official members of other bands. Some not sure. XD}